When has her cunning actually let her beat a superior duelist in a versus board-like setting? Her stamina won't matter, at least not as much as, say, Kit's speed, which actually aids him in combat. What great Force feats does she have by RotS that would allow her to actually win a fight against Fisto?
The best you can argue is that Fisto is at an inherent disadvantage because of Makashi. Take someone as fast and skilled as Fisto and have them being a master of another lightsaber form and Ti loses for certain.
Against Grievous, she outsmarted him numerous times.
Oh and it helps a lot, he will eventually get tired and sloppy whereas she won't.
She is hardly lacking in speed herself, dodging omni-directional blaster fire and speedblitzing droids from considerable distances and not to mention being an Ataru master.
She Tutaminis'd a lightsaber blade, Force Healed blaster shots to the chest and TK'd droids to pieces.
Her lightsaber skill is only matched by the most elite swordsmen in the Jedi Order. She has even been shortlisted among Dooku, Yoda, Windu, Anakin, Kenobi and Billaba as the great swordmasters of the Jedi Order.
Ancient-
Against Grievous, she outsmarted him numerous times.Not in combat situations akin to the one she is in here. Kit won't be monologuing to her.
Oh and it helps a lot, he will eventually get tired and sloppy whereas she won't.Based on what? Fisto's stamina is great. He was capable of sparring AotC Kenobi for hours and ended up at such pace they would have looked like they were trying to slaughter each other to a non-Jedi.
She is hardly lacking in speed herself, dodging omni-directional blaster fire and speedblitzing droids from considerable distances and not to mention being an Ataru master.She's not lacking, no, just not as good as Kit. Being a master of Ataru isn't a speed feat.
She Tutaminis'd a lightsaber blade, Force Healed blaster shots to the chest and TK'd droids to pieces.But failed to absorb the impact, which makes her tutaminis useless here and not that great of a power showing. Force Healing is irrelevant. TKing droids is roughly as good as this, certainly not enough to take an edge over Kit:
Her lightsaber skill is only matched by the most elite swordsmen in the Jedi Order. She has even been shortlisted among Dooku, Yoda, Windu, Anakin, Kenobi and Billaba as the great swordmasters of the Jedi Order.She wasn't shortlisted, her skill was praised as being "great" and she was just used as an example alongside Dooku of a fighter who has a distinct attribute like elegance/grace, whereas Kenobi is comparatively a very plain fighter. I can easily name seven+ Jedi during Ti's era with better dueling skill than her.
Except for the part where she loses him not once, twice or thrice but four times, it is called cunning and monologuing isn't required because she has displayed her cunning against Starkiller.
Shaak Ti was augmenting herself for hours during Coruscant and along with Ki-Adi Mundi and Aayla Secura was fighting for what appeared to be days against a droid army.
Her Ataru mastery is actually a fantastic example of her speed and stamina. After the aforementioned marathon of fleeing from Grievous she went up against 20 Magnaguards and was able to take them all on simultaneously and stalemate them.
Her cunning yet again came into play when she played to the droids' weaknesses in combat during that engagement.
What speed feats does Fisto have that surpasses blaster fire from every direction twice and blitzing droids from a large distance. Not to mention later in life moving faster than Starkiller could adequately react to.
So we are just going to ignore the fact that it also happens to name all of the very best duelists in the Order during that era? ok then.
Putting the entire paragraph into context it is clearly meant to state that Kenobi is just as good as they are, not just compare forms. It is highlighting his strength compared to their's, his strength being simplicity itself.
You can list those better in your opinion, I however am not interest in opinions but sourcable factoids. Unless you have a statement calling Fisto a genuinely superior duelist to Shaak Ti then this is rather moot.
The fact Windu, a man who has already praised her combat prowess, elected her over every other Jedi available to him, to be his contingency plan for the Order should he fail speaks volumes.
Ancient-
Except for the part where she loses him not once, twice or thrice but four times, it is called cunning and monologuing isn't required because she has displayed her cunning against Starkiller.So she's going to run away from Kit? And what great cunning did she show against SK other than managing to get an edge over him on a light-sided Felucia, as well as a favourable environment?
Shaak Ti was augmenting herself for hours during Coruscant and along with Ki-Adi Mundi and Aayla Secura was fighting for what appeared to be days against a droid army.Like I said, Kit's stamina is serviceable enough for this not to even matter.
Her Ataru mastery is actually a fantastic example of her speed and stamina. After the aforementioned marathon of fleeing from Grievous she went up against 20 Magnaguards and was able to take them all on simultaneously and stalemate them.To be fair not all 20 MagnaGuards were capable of getting to her simultaneously, probably four, five, six at most. Still it's a decent feat of speed and agility.
Her cunning yet again came into play when she played to the droids' weaknesses in combat during that engagement.Well, really, she obviously wasn't actively exploiting the weakness considering that after she found success with the staff, she picked her lightsaber back up and ended up getting overwhelmed by them again. And Kit has no such weakness outside of Makashi-Shii-Cho.
What speed feats does Fisto have that surpasses blaster fire from every direction twice and blitzing droids from a large distance. Not to mention later in life moving faster than Starkiller could adequately react to.Well, by AotC alone he was faster than Obi-Wan Kenobi. Ten years prior to this point Kenobi was faster than Qui-Gon Jinn, who could disarm an opponent faster than one can draw their breath. So Fisto being noticeably faster than Kenobi ten years after this alone makes him superior to Ti who as you said, has dodged blaster bolts from many angles and blitzed "droids".
He has also baffled AotC Obi-Wan's gaze with his speed.
While it's not exclusively a speed feat, Kit's overall speed and unpredictability allowed him to overwhelm the reaction speed of Force sensitive JK droids - which are superhumanly fast to the point that even clone troopers can't see them as more than a blur, or hit them with blaster bolts, not to mention are precognitive and were also stated as being faster than Fisto himself at the time. It was also noted that Fisto's sense of timing and reaction speed is faster than conscious thought.
Kit ended up moving so fast whilst fighting these droids, he appeared to be everywhere at once.
Then fast forward to LoE, where Kit kills two MagnaGuards at such a pace that they can't even meet his blade with their staffs.
Kit is exceptionally fast among Jedi of his weight class, I must say. His thread speaks for itself:
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/whirlwind_33/blog/kit-fisto-respect-thread/97926/
Also, on the note of Shaak Ti moving faster than Starkiller can react to (which is false, he did react, just barely), not only was this feat in a light-side aligned environment which would weaken SK somewhat and boost Ti, but she had the advantage of a surprise attack and an advantage in environment which had SK off-balance initially. Even in this condition he blocked all of her blows until he got his balance back, and at that point he managed to engage in an extensive duel with her where part of his attention was focused towards attacking the sarlacc, instead of focusing in on Ti fully, while Ti had the sarlacc harassing him frequently. With these edges in mind, it's understandable that Ti got such a noticeable edge over him.
Not to mention, this is RotS Ti anyway.
So we are just going to ignore the fact that it also happens to name all of the very best duelists in the Order during that era? ok then.They aren't all the very best duelists, though. Depa and Shaak aren't anyway. Drallig alone is confirmed as being more skilled than her as per the RotS Visual Dictionary and IIRC the Character Encyclopedia.
You can list those better in your opinion, I however am not interest in opinions but sourcable factoids. Unless you have a statement calling Fisto a genuinely superior duelist to Shaak Ti then this is rather moot.My source for Fisto being a better duelist than Ti is superior dueling feats alongside equal hype and reputation.The fact Windu, a man who has already praised her combat prowess, elected her over every other Jedi available to him, to be his contingency plan for the Order should he fail speaks volumes.
I could say the same for the fact he brought Fisto along with two others, not Ti, to fight Palpatine instead of Ti herself, and then Ti went as far as to say that Fisto is among the best in the order, which could be seen as an admission of inferiority. This combined with the fact that Ti wasn't even the best Jedi amongst the temple defence only proves that Ti's hype doesn't elevate her past where her feats would place her.
Actually her mission demanded she run away rather than engage Grievous directly, her mission was to secure the Chancellor in the Emergency Bunker.
In a prolonged engagement against a duelist on this level it certainly does.
She equated the strength of five simultaneously in a bladelock, She lost her lightsaber because they managed to get in one of the three grand total hits they accomplished against her.
Dodge omni-directional fire twice, I shouldn't need to express how impressive this is. Oh and she blitzed multiple droids from a distance before they fired.
Oh and Starkiller didn't react the whole first three times she landed blows on him with her lightsaber and then he through pure instinct managed to telekinetically block her skull-splitting riposte. She nearly speedblitzed him at the end of their fight.
Oh and it was only a 'light side' environment because she made it that way, Felucia was of the Dark Side, Shaak Ti was described as 'A lone beacon of light'.
In reality I assume you meant the Force, because Felucia is described as strong with the Force because of all the life there. Shaak Ti's Alter Environment and natural affinity as a Togruta allowed her to commune with the planet on a spiritual level.
So in reality it was a hindrance rather than a Force amp as you imply. Evidence of this comes from the fact that the planet is corrupted by the Dark Side to extreme degrees the next time Marek gets to the planet. Far more than Maris Brood could have possibly imbued it with.
This is actually an excellent display of Force power and presence for Ti, very few Jedi have such an effect on planets.
Oh and while this is Shaak Ti as of ROTS, she spent all the time between then and TFU to train Maris Brood and save her from Dark Side corruption.
Cin drallig is very contradictory in his numerous appearances, in the film he is seen dueling Vader rather adequately. In the novel he gets basically steamrolled. in the game he performs excellently. He is either extremely skilled or way past his prime.
Her feats against those she has faced are about as good as feats get against those opponents, you are assuming superior feats when really it's nothing more than absence of evidence.
Oh and her hype is superior actually, she is referred to repeatedly by both sourcebooks and characters as a legendary Jedi Master with extreme skill and prowess.
Her job was to guard the temple in the first place, at least before TCW Fives arc. Mace Windu chose her to lead the temple's defence despite Cin Drallig and Anakin's presence, unless I am remembering incorrectly it is mainly because of his view of her over the others there.
Let's not delve into Jedi modesty or Kenobi > Yoda & Windu or Yoda > GM Luke, by that logic.
Shaak Ti is clearly in the upper half of the High Council and has proven so against excellent opponents.
Her over-all Force feats point to greater Force power than Fisto, especially including The Force Unleashed. #KinetiteFTW
Ancient- Do you ever concede to anything? Like, ever?
Actually her mission demanded she run away rather than engage Grievous directly, her mission was to secure the Chancellor in the Emergency Bunker.I'm not sure how this correlates to her "cunning" helping her against Kit.
In a prolonged engagement against a duelist on this level it certainly does.You expect the duel to be as prolonged as several hours? Because that's how long it would take for Fisto to tire out. Not seeing it personally.
She equated the strength of five simultaneously in a bladelock, She lost her lightsaber because they managed to get in one of the three grand total hits they accomplished against her.This has nothing to do with the speed or agility argument. Nobody is expecting a duelist of Shaak's level to go untouched by MG's in that quantity, but then her getting hit by them isn't really much of a speed feat.
Dodge omni-directional fire twice, I shouldn't need to express how impressive this is. Oh and she blitzed multiple droids from a distance before they fired.You don't, no, because I know how impressive it is. Quinlan Vos has displayed this level of speed on two occasions as well.
When Vos, someone who shares Ti's speed feats that you hold in high acclaim, fought in front of a clone trooper, he appeared as a blur who couldn't be tracked accurately.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3846580-blur+speeds.png
Which is exactly how fast the JK droids were to the perception of clone troopers.
Jangotat threw himself to the rear, firing as he did, riding it out and rolling backward, coming to his feet in a single smooth motion, turning in the same motion, switching his rifle to maximal energy pulses. Too fast! The JK was a marvel, zigging this way and that, its narrow treads blurring far too quickly to track. Three shots, four. The rifle’s barrel pulsed white as its blasts furrowed walls and floor, always missing the skittering machine.And yet for all their speed, this is how they met Kit's unorthodox offence:
But Kit was far from vanquished. As if he, too, had merely been playing a game, he crouched and leapt forward, spinning on his body’s vertical axis like some kind of carnival acrobat, surging directly at the JK. He rode the JK’s yanking motion instead of fighting it, slipping between the tendrils, the Nautolan’s sense of timing faster and more precise than conscious thought.Whatever its powers, the droid had not anticipated such an assault, nor could it adjust in time. It released him and retreated up a step, all tendrils lashing at the Jedi. Kit’s lightsaber rained sparks. Tentacles flopped onto the sand, some of the larger pieces twitching, more like separate creatures than severed limbs.
But Kit had entered lightsaber range. At this more intimate distance, the droid was at a disadvantage. Now Kit was the predator, the JK reduced to the role of prey.Hissing, it retreated on its slender golden legs, tentacles wavering, as if it couldn’t crunch data fast enough to counter the unorthodox attack.
Kit’s emerald lightsaber blade was here, there, everywhere: unpredictable, irresistible. The spinning energy disks no longer absorbed the strikes: now they merely deflected them, sparks raining in all directions. Kit accelerated into a blur of motion complex and rapid enough to baffle even Obi-Wan’s experienced gaze. The Nautolan Jedi’s lightsaber wove between the energy shields, descending on the JK’s housing for the first time. The droid emitted a painfully thin shriek. Its gleaming legs shivered. It collapsed to the sand. It twitched, struggling to rise. And then then spilled onto its side spewing smoke and sparks.Kit is on another level of speed based on this feat alone, I'm afraid, never mind the rest.
Oh and Starkiller didn't react the whole first three times she landed blows on him with her lightsaber and then he through pure instinct managed to telekinetically block her skull-splitting riposte. She nearly speedblitzed him at the end of their fight.He most certainly did react at the start of the fight, just barely, like I said, and Ti surprise attacked him to boot:Oh and it was only a 'light side' environment because she made it that way, Felucia was of the Dark Side, Shaak Ti was described as 'A lone beacon of light'.
In reality I assume you meant the Force, because Felucia is described as strong with the Force because of all the life there. Shaak Ti's Alter Environment and natural affinity as a Togruta allowed her to commune with the planet on a spiritual level.
So in reality it was a hindrance rather than a Force amp as you imply. Evidence of this comes from the fact that the planet is corrupted by the Dark Side to extreme degrees the next time Marek gets to the planet. Far more than Maris Brood could have possibly imbued it with.
This is actually an excellent display of Force power and presence for Ti, very few Jedi have such an effect on planets.
He smiled, letting anger fuel his hatred for her and for all that the Jedi represented. With the dark side behind him, he reached out for the mind of the sarlacc and goaded it to lash out at her.Nothing even close to resembling a speedblitz here, and as for the end of the fight he indeed reacted to her, he just got tagged.
All the creature did was roar. It resisted him, he realized, with her help.
She smiled in mockery. "Are you prepared to meet your fate?" Then her lightsaber was lit and she was spinning through the air toward him, striking downward as she fell.
The apprentice simultaneously backflipped and blocked her opening blow. The force of it surprised him, and the recoil threw him backward. His hood caught on one of the sarlacc's teeth, and he tore it impatiently away before the snag could interfere with his defense. Shaak Ti's lightsaber was a jagged blue blur between them. He blocked her as best he could until he had his balance again.
Then he jumped. Over her he spun and fell down two layers of teeth toward the mouth of the sarlacc. From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all.
In desperation, he summoned a bolt of Sith lightning and sent it down, into the flesh of the sarlacc. The beast roared and shook, giving him the opening he needed. Shaak Ti's right foot slipped, forcing her to flip elegantly out of reach of his blade. He leapt after her, swinging as he came.
The fight progressed around the sarlacc's center rings, blow and counterblow accompanied by the roaring of the beast. The apprentice cut off teeth and threw the fragments at his adversary's head. In return she took tighter control of the beast's distributed intelligence and sent its food-seeking tentacles flailing for him. He repulsed them and fought on.
Down they drove each other, closer and closer to the very lip of the creature's enormous mouth.
On her last three words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice's left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue.Now, as for your points about Felucia, it in fact wasn't a dark sided planet as per the novelisation, but rather a planet in balance, until Ti skewered the balance in favour of the light side with her continued presence there over the years.
She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and the dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance. There was still darkness on Felucia, but it was stifled, frustrated, weakened. He strained to awaken it, to remind it of its proper place in the universe. The light side had held sway for far too long. It was time to redress the issue. Killing Shaak Ti would do that quite nicely.So Ti was enjoying a fair bit of nexus energy on Felucia, meanwhile Galen would be weakened to some degree.
Oh and while this is Shaak Ti as of ROTS, she spent all the time between then and TFU to train Maris Brood and save her from Dark Side corruption.Jedi improve over time - this is irrefutable. She evidently spent a lot of time meditating on the Force and thus grew in strength, so her TFU showings aren't applicable to her RotS version, no matter what way you want to try and bend it.
Cin drallig is very contradictory in his numerous appearances, in the film he is seen dueling Vader rather adequately. In the novel he gets basically steamrolled. in the game he performs excellently. He is either extremely skilled or way past his prime.All we have of him in the film is a short clip of Vader butchering him. He gets steamrolled in the novel. The RotS game is ambiguously canon at best and non-canon at average - we're talking about the same game that has Anakin dueling and defeating Mace Windu during the fight in Palpatine's office, amongst many other events that completely contradict the films and all other source material.
Her feats against those she has faced are about as good as feats get against those opponents, you are assuming superior feats when really it's nothing more than absence of evidence.Absence of evidence? Kit Fisto evidently doesn't struggle as badly as Ti with MagnaGuards, and she has no feats of speed or skill to surpass Fisto absolutely dismantling JK droids, who match or surpass his own speed and precog, or being faster and more skilled noticeably than AotC Kenobi - a version of Kenobi with ten years more experience than his TPM counterpart, who was capable of approaching Qui-Gon Jinn's level of saber skill. Jinn's feats include humbling Anoon Bondara, who was considered unparalleled as a combatant by many during TPM, as well contending with Darth Maul past his own physical prime, and is accoladed as being one of the most skilled pure swordsmen in Jedi history.
Oh and her hype is superior actually, she is referred to repeatedly by both sourcebooks and characters as a legendary Jedi Master with extreme skill and prowess.And so is Fisto, by Shaak Ti herself, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Mace Windu and the Complete Visual Dictionary. Her hype is made inferior by Drallig's hype, to boot.
Her job was to guard the temple in the first place, at least before TCW Fives arc. Mace Windu chose her to lead the temple's defence despite Cin Drallig and Anakin's presence, unless I am remembering incorrectly it is mainly because of his view of her over the others there.Cin Drallig wasn't a war general, and Anakin wasn't experienced - when all other capable swordsmen are either off doing important things like killing Sith Lords or commanding forces, it only stands to reason that Shaak Ti be placed in charge of the temple's defences, since she's a war general. This doesn't in any way correlate to lightsaber skill except in the very loosest sense.
Let's not delve into Jedi modesty or Kenobi > Yoda & Windu or Yoda > GM Luke, by that logic.I felt it was worth bringing up, is all.
Shaak Ti is clearly in the upper half of the High Council and has proven so against excellent opponents.Hmm... let's see, the following duelists on the council are all better than Shaak Ti:
Her over-all Force feats point to greater Force power than Fisto, especially including The Force Unleashed. #KinetiteFTWGreater? Perhaps. Overwhelming or enough to even tilt the fight towards her favour? Not a chance. Not by RotS anyway.
Kit is substantially faster, substantially more skilled, substantially less wanked, and has comparable Force power. Time to admit Ti's inferiority.
Originally posted by ILS
All we have of him in the film is a short clip of Vader butchering him. He gets steamrolled in the novel. The RotS game is ambiguously canon at best and non-canon at average - we're talking about the same game that has Anakin dueling and defeating Mace Windu during the fight in Palpatine's office, amongst many other events that completely contradict the films and all other source material. [/B]
Well we never really see Cin die, all we see in the holo is him trading a few blows against Anakin before it cuts away.
Shaak Ti wins in my opinion.
In addition to taking all the magnaguard- and any deficiency they have against non-sabers is *more* than made up for in number- according to TFU she confronted, survived, and escaped Vader during the temple assault.
I think she's got skill and force power on him.
ILS
To be fair not all 20 MagnaGuards were capable of getting to her simultaneously, probably four, five, six at most. Still it's a decent feat of speed and agility.
Oh, definitely more than 4. Remember they had long pikes, increasing the number that could attack.
