Cornered? In what way? He presented a fan theory that says the STs were ordered to miss and act incompetent, something that is never stated in the movie/script. I, however, never once presented "my own fan-fiction" but rather pointed out that Vader and Co letting them go does not require the STs to miss on purpose and claimed it was ridiculous to believe soldiers would follow such orders.
1. It only makes sense that they would tell the stormtroopers not to kill them, if they wanted them to escape. Their job is to prevent them from escaping. I doubt they took a look at a monarch, a farmboy, a smuggler and wookiee and thought "Nah... our elite fighting force won't be able to take them out even if we give them orders to do so... let's just not tell the stormtroopers that we want them alive. Tell them to shoot to kill and if that ****s up our plans, oh well, at least ares834 from KMC won't look dense".
2. It's actually a pretty well documented fact that stormtroopers will follow the Emperor's orders without question, regardless of what they are. From EU reading, anyway.
Originally posted by ILS
It's actually a pretty well documented fact that stormtroopers will follow the Emperor's orders without question, regardless of what they are. From EU reading, anyway.
There was a comic focusing on the story of a certain ST who was killed by Leia in the opening sequence of ANH. His last thoughts being that he, like all STs, only lived to follow orders and that his death was absolutely meaningless to the rest of the Empire, including his fellow STs. I believe it was in one of the tales, so it may or may not have been canon. However, IIRC, the gist of the comic elaborated on Zen's point.
It's not so hard to believe, especially living in a world where we, ourselves, have soldiers who are trained to kill themselves if the plan calls for it, hence all the suicide terrorist attacks. I think Ares point, though, is that he's not convinced that the STs were given orders to allow themselves to be killed.
I don't think there orders were to allow themselves to be killed, either. Just that they weren't supposed to kill the rebels but to make their escape seem convincing enough that they wouldn't feel like it was a set up.
And yeah, reading "The Mandalorian Armor" atm, and Xizor and Palpatine speak for a long time about why all of those who are in his empire are so fear-addled that their lives become meaningless. All they are to Sidious is a tool in his hands, to be used for whatever purpose he see's fit. I don't see them giving their lives as being too crazy of a concept, tbh.
Originally posted by ares834
The argument that the Stormtroopers were missing on purpose during the Death Star has always been asinine. Sure, Vader and Tarkin were willing to let the rebels escape but that doesn't mean the Stormies were just standing around waiting to be killed...
I don't know how but the incompetence of the storm troopers is linked to the will of destroying the rebels base...
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You really think so?I always thought the clone troopers look more badass.
Yhea especialy during the clone war show the microserie where they needn'tto talk..
Not in TWC where it's a fun retconny show where they never shutt up and try to look like americans marines....
This is the probelm with TWC they never shutt up... They keep talking talking and talking !
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There was a comic focusing on the story of a certain ST who was killed by Leia in the opening sequence of ANH. His last thoughts being that he, like all STs, only lived to follow orders and that his death was absolutely meaningless to the rest of the Empire, including his fellow STs. I believe it was in one of the tales, so it may or may not have been canon. However, IIRC, the gist of the comic elaborated on Zen's point.It's not so hard to believe, especially living in a world where we, ourselves, have soldiers who are trained to kill themselves if the plan calls for it, hence all the suicide terrorist attacks. I think Ares point, though, is that he's not convinced that the STs were given orders to allow themselves to be killed.
Was in Tales 10, it also showed some flashbacks of how brutal Stormtrooper training was, they trained to the death IIRC. Kinda wished I picked up that particular issue before it went away...I can still get it, but have to buy a bundle of other Tales for $14.99, don't think i'll do that just for 1 issue.
Also I don't see why they need to have it shown that Stormtroopers were given direct orders not to kill....it's told that Luke and co were let go. The Empire was trying to find the Rebel base, it would make sense to give the illusion that the crew wouldn't just walk out of a heavily guarded Imperial battle station.
Why isn't that enough?...
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Was in Tales 10, it also showed some flashbacks of how brutal Stormtrooper training was, they trained to the death IIRC. Kinda wished I picked up that particular issue before it went away...I can still get it, but have to buy a bundle of other Tales for $14.99, don't think i'll do that just for 1 issue.Also I don't see why they need to have it shown that Stormtroopers were given direct orders not to kill....it's told that Luke and co were let go. The Empire was trying to find the Rebel base, it would make sense to give the illusion that the crew wouldn't just walk out of a heavily guarded Imperial battle station.
Why isn't that enough?...
They also train some stormies at cheap cost to do the police job on some world located in the outer rim... Or guard teh death star...
Originally posted by ILS
1. It only makes sense that they would tell the stormtroopers not to kill them, if they wanted them to escape. Their job is to prevent them from escaping. I doubt they took a look at a monarch, a farmboy, a smuggler and wookiee and thought "Nah... our elite fighting force won't be able to take them out even if we give them orders to do so... let's just not tell the stormtroopers that we want them alive. Tell them to shoot to kill and if that ****s up our plans, oh well, at least ares834 from KMC won't look dense".2. It's actually a pretty well documented fact that stormtroopers will follow the Emperor's orders without question, regardless of what they are. From EU reading, anyway.
1. And, like I've said again and again it's a theory. There are other ways the Empire may have used to "aid" the rebels escape. Beyond that, this is far from the only acts of incompetence seen by the Empire's troops thorougout the films.
2. Perhaps.
Originally posted by Revanchiste
The problem is that the idea of strom troopers = total shit trooper came popular so we had some little not fan service but Id on't know how to explain this..
Still storm troopers suck in espisode VI !They also train some stormies at cheap cost to do the police job on some world located in the outer rim... Or guard teh death star...
No they don't and they never were shit troopers, if people paid attention to their showings.
Also Stormtrooper training isn't cheap lol, no idea where that notion comes from.
I know episode V....
But in mind of some peoples... They always think noobs when they see a storm tropers..
There is an elite training, I know. And I don't remember when and how palpatine decide to recruit more storm troopers in order to keep control on 5 or 6 world in the outer rim....
And on teh death star... Because palpatine quicly realise than you needn't elite troopers everywhere... There is boring post where just the sheer numbers of storm troopers can resolve any problems if something happen...
10% of the imperial army get a cheap training.... Because palpa recruite a lot...
+
To keep a decent skill you have to train, and most of "patroling troopers" begin to loose their skill. Making the training pointless....
The training begin to be a waste of timeand ressources...
The idea came topalptine : abuse of the image of the actual storm troopers an elite one. Yhea became like all those bad ass clones. Receive a shitty training and you will be an elite.
The training one some region have became a brain washing... With high pressure etc... In order to insure total loyauty and obeiscence to the empire.
Still the idea became latly.... 3-5 years after the rebellion on Kamino something like that... and it end quicly...
Originally posted by Zenwolf
/Sigh..You clearly don't know Stormtroopers, the GE didn't give them shitty training or anything like that. The only branch that received bad training, was CompForce.
Find the exact number 12% of the imperial army receive this cheap training.
Where standard training have an high level of failure... The cheap one had a low level of failure so yhea... a sheer number of person sucess this training even if it was localiaze and didn't last long....
it make just a boom in the size of imperail army....
"Filoni confirmed clones > stormies, for what it's worth."
Superior training that favor skill to loyauty.
Because in anyway as long than the Kaminoan are well payed by the republic, clone will still loyal they are "PROGRAMMED" for...
Clones rebels on Kamino. Because the Kaminoan rebels and change their allegance and loyauty.... They prep a rebellion in the silence....
So after this rebellion happen... Loyauty begin to be the first preoccupation...
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Was in Tales 10, it also showed some flashbacks of how brutal Stormtrooper training was, they trained to the death IIRC. Kinda wished I picked up that particular issue before it went away...I can still get it, but have to buy a bundle of other Tales for $14.99, don't think i'll do that just for 1 issue.Also I don't see why they need to have it shown that Stormtroopers were given direct orders not to kill....it's told that Luke and co were let go. The Empire was trying to find the Rebel base, it would make sense to give the illusion that the crew wouldn't just walk out of a heavily guarded Imperial battle station.
Why isn't that enough?...
I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you.
Yeah, I used to own two of the bundled copies. Not sure how many there are. But even a few years ago, the single stories were hard to find, I had to purchase the bundled copies just for a few stories, so I could only imagine now.
Originally posted by ares834
Not sure where you got the idea that I enjoy incompetent villains... However, other villains (in both the OT and Rebels) make up for the STs lack of competency.
Because stormtroopers represent the bulk of the Empire's forces. If stormtroopers are truly as incompetent as a more literal interpretation depicts them, then it not only undermines the narrative from a thematic perspective but also calls into question how the hell the Empire reigned absolutely for 20+ years.
So I'm always shocked when I see stormtrooper syndrome apologetics. It seems to derive from people who have a literal interpretation of the OT and regard the OT as sacrosanct and perfect or from people who don't understand the value of a formidable villain and the fact that the theme of the OT {underdog rebels vs. an all-powerful tyranny} requires that the Empire be bigger, stronger, and more powerful which in turn requires stormtroopers to be good at their job. 👆
You never struck me as either sort of person hence my confusion.
{It's also interesting that those very same people often b1tch about the flaccid battle droids from the PT.}