I don't see why Grievous isn't far beyond Satele; Satele is very good, but Grievous is just ridiculous, and should start being recognized as such more commonly.
Both Mace Windu (RotS Novel), and Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary claim that Grievous is "more than a match for most Jedi".
In Labyrinth of Evil, it's stated from Dooku's perspective that few, if any, Jedi would be able to defeat Grievous, and that on occasion even Dooku himself has been strained to defeat Grievous in sparring matches.
The RotS novel states that Grievous is the most prolific slaughterer of Jedi since Durge. In Star Wars: General Grievous and Insider 86 it's stated that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi personally.
In Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Dooku claims that Grievous is more formidable than Asajj Ventress.
Grievous's accolades on the whole outstrip Satele Shan's. As does his knowledge in the art of lightsaber combat. Dooku tutored Grievous in all seven lightsaber forms, and as a result Grievous trained his MagnaGuards in all seven lightsaber forms, to the point they became "more than a match for most", and to the point they could single handedly kill a Jedi Knight. It's also stated of MagnaGuards that most Jedi die to them, and the few that do get past Grievous's wall of MagnaGuards are always too tired to even put up a fight against Grievous.
As for feats, let's get OCW out of the way first since people will inevitably dismiss these first off. Although these events are referenced in a myriad of other EU works, including "Star Wars: General Grievous", Insider, Labyrinth of Evil and so on, so they're very much canon to Legends.
-Defeated Asajj Ventress and Durge in a 2v1
-Handily defeated Ki-Adi-Mundi, Ti, Secura, K'Kruhk and Tarr Seirr while they were "exhausted" from fighting droids.
-Held his own in a sparring match with Count Dooku
Other prominent dueling feats include:
-Handily outsparring a group of MagnaGuards
-Purportedly being capable of killing four Jedi Knights, five of Palpatine's Red Guard, and several other gunmen, before any of them could activate their weapons
-Contending with Darth Maul for a short period of time during SOD #4 before being BFR'd
-Fighting evenly with Mace Windu atop a train roof, with extremely limited range of movement and only two lightsabers. Also worth noting that Grievous was capable of imitating Vaapad after "a single exchange" because of how powerful the computers in his brain are.
Other important dueling attributes to note include:
-Grievous's lightsaber fighting style is comprised of all seven lightsaber forms, including Juyo and Vaapad
-Grievous has been called the greatest unarmed killer of Jedi the mythos has ever seen, by producer Rick McCallum
-Grievous's fighting style is incredibly unorthodox and unpredictable. His use of four lightsabers accompanied by the constant shift of intensity and velocity, as well as the extremely varied number of angles he attacks from, make him an incredibly difficult combatant to cope with in general and especially upon your first duel with him
-The computers in Grievous's brain are constantly feeding him data that allow him to adapt to his opponent's specific fighting style, allowing him to alter his offensive and defensive methods to suit the moment; not quite precog, but the next best thing
I'm sorry, but Satele isn't in the same league.
Originally posted by ILS
Both Mace Windu (RotS Novel), and Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary claim that Grievous is "more than a match for most Jedi".
And... Satele isn't?
Originally posted by ILS
In Labyrinth of Evil, it's stated from Dooku's perspective that few, if any, Jedi would be able to defeat Grievous, and that on occasion even Dooku himself has been strained to defeat Grievous in sparring matches.
Few Jedi could beat Satele as well. I'm not even going to dignify Dooku's idiocy in implying a possibility that Yoda would fail to beat Grievous. Stupid Dooku.
Originally posted by ILS
The RotS novel states that Grievous is the most prolific slaughterer of Jedi since Durge. In Star Wars: General Grievous and Insider 86 it's stated that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi personally.
Kind of baffled that he even had the time amidst a war where he was the lead tactician and general of his forces. I would have thought he had more important shit to do.
Originally posted by ILS
In Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Dooku claims that Grievous is more formidable than Asajj Ventress.
Yeah, maybe. So is Satele.
Originally posted by ILS
Grievous's accolades on the whole outstrip Satele Shan's. As does his knowledge in the art of lightsaber combat. Dooku tutored Grievous in all seven lightsaber forms, and as a result Grievous trained his MagnaGuards in all seven lightsaber forms, to the point they became "more than a match for most", and to the point they could single handedly kill a Jedi Knight. It's also stated of MagnaGuards that most Jedi die to them, and the few that do get past Grievous's wall of MagnaGuards are always too tired to even put up a fight against Grievous.
Well there goes all that credit for killing so many Jedi then. Grievous is a coward who needed to weaken the majority of his opponents before killing them. Totally on a different level altogether tho 4 sure.
Originally posted by ILS
As for feats, let's get OCW out of the way first since people will inevitably dismiss these first off.
True.
Originally posted by ILS
-Handily outsparring a group of MagnaGuards
-Purportedly being capable of killing four Jedi Knights, five of Palpatine's Red Guard, and several other gunmen, before any of them could activate their weapons
-Contending with Darth Maul for a short period of time during SOD #4 before being BFR'd
-Fighting evenly with Mace Windu atop a train roof, with extremely limited range of movement and only two lightsabers. Also worth noting that Grievous was capable of imitating Vaapad after "a single exchange" because of how powerful the computers in his brain are.
- Hello Ahsoka.
- Never heard of this one. Purported how? Because I'm pretty sure that's not how that fight went down.
- So could Satele.
- Contending with Windu isn't exactly something "on another level".
Originally posted by ILS
Other important dueling attributes to note include:-Grievous's lightsaber fighting style is comprised of all seven lightsaber forms, including Juyo and Vaapad
-Grievous has been called the greatest unarmed killer of Jedi the mythos has ever seen, by producer Rick McCallum
-Grievous's fighting style is incredibly unorthodox and unpredictable. His use of four lightsabers accompanied by the constant shift of intensity and velocity, as well as the extremely varied number of angles he attacks from, make him an incredibly difficult combatant to cope with in general and especially upon your first duel with him
-The computers in Grievous's brain are constantly feeding him data that allow him to adapt to his opponent's specific fighting style, allowing him to alter his offensive and defensive methods to suit the moment; not quite precog, but the next best thingI'm sorry, but Satele isn't in the same league.
- Yes, that's high levels of skill. Drallig and him must be brofiving all the time.
- Well he is a ****ing robot, so yeah I'm not exactly sure what a Jedi could do to him in a h2h fight other than bruise their knuckles. Other than other cyborgs, GG doesn't really have much competition in that area due to his rather substantial advantage of being a tin man.
- Hello again Ahsoka. I'm pretty sure Satele could manage giving her natural affinity with bladework.
- Yeah, I agree. Precog IS better.
Noooooooooooooope! Like, why are you actually thinking all of that's in a different league? It's all good and everything but like.... different league? Hell no. Satele still wins with the Force.
I doubt this is worth the effort but.. here goes.
Neph-
And... Satele isn't?You tell me.
Few Jedi could beat Satele as well.Indeed?I'm not even going to dignify Dooku's idiocy in implying a possibility that Yoda would fail to beat Grievous. Stupid Dooku.
Nobody said the quote was 100% accurate, but it's better than Satele's accolades 👆
Thanks for remembering to forget the part about Grievous providing a challenge for Dooku in sparring, though 👆
Kind of baffled that he even had the time amidst a war where he was the lead tactician and general of his forces. I would have thought he had more important shit to do.Concession noted.
Yeah, maybe. So is Satele.Proof?
Well there goes all that credit for killing so many Jedi then. Grievous is a coward who needed to weaken the majority of his opponents before killing them. Totally on a different level altogether tho 4 sure.Hardly "all the credit". As was noted, most of the time the MagnaGuards were successfully killing the Jedi, it was just the rare few who got through that Grievous killed. As we've seen on a multitude of occasions, Grievous has had no issue slaughtering groups of Jedi all by himself. Thanks for attempting to lowball this, though 👆
True.inb4 TOR community would readily accept all feats for Satele if she was featured in OCW.
- Hello Ahsoka.- This isn't a counter-argument
- Never heard of this one. Purported how? Because I'm pretty sure that's not how that fight went down.
- So could Satele.
- Contending with Windu isn't exactly something "on another level".
The astonishment registered by Palpatine and his quartet of Jedi Knights assured Grievous that he could not have made a more dramatic entry. A large desk dominated the circular room, and banks of communications consoles formed the circumference. Centered in the curved wall opposite the entrance was a second door. Posing for effect in the polygonal opening, Grievous granted his opponents a moment to activate their lightsabers, force pikes, and other weapons. Also for effect, he deflected the initial flurry of blaster bolts with his clawed hands, before drawing two of his lightsabers.
- Proof?
- Of course it is. Windu is well beyond Satele with a lightsaber.
- Yes, that's high levels of skill. Drallig and him must be brofiving all the time.- Wasn't saying it was the beginning and end of my entire argument, but your attempt at lowballing is once again noted 👆
- Well he is a ****ing robot, so yeah I'm not exactly sure what a Jedi could do to him in a h2h fight other than bruise their knuckles. Other than other cyborgs, GG doesn't really have much competition in that area due to his rather substantial advantage of being a tin man.
- Hello again Ahsoka. I'm pretty sure Satele could manage giving her natural affinity with bladework.
- Yeah, I agree. Precog IS better.
Noooooooooooooope! Like, why are you actually thinking all of that's in a different league? It's all good and everything but like.... different league? Hell no. Satele still wins with the Force.Well, you potentially got the last sentence right. Good job Neph 👆
Originally posted by ILS
I don't see why Grievous isn't far beyond Satele; Satele is very good, but Grievous is just ridiculous, and should start being recognized as such more commonly.Both Mace Windu (RotS Novel), and Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary claim that Grievous is "more than a match for most Jedi".
In Labyrinth of Evil, it's stated from Dooku's perspective that few, if any, Jedi would be able to defeat Grievous, and that on occasion even Dooku himself has been strained to defeat Grievous in sparring matches.
The RotS novel states that Grievous is the most prolific slaughterer of Jedi since Durge. In Star Wars: General Grievous and Insider 86 it's stated that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi personally.
In Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Dooku claims that Grievous is more formidable than Asajj Ventress.
Grievous's accolades on the whole outstrip Satele Shan's. As does his knowledge in the art of lightsaber combat. Dooku tutored Grievous in all seven lightsaber forms, and as a result Grievous trained his MagnaGuards in all seven lightsaber forms, to the point they became "more than a match for most", and to the point they could single handedly kill a Jedi Knight. It's also stated of MagnaGuards that most Jedi die to them, and the few that do get past Grievous's wall of MagnaGuards are always too tired to even put up a fight against Grievous.
As for feats, let's get OCW out of the way first since people will inevitably dismiss these first off. Although these events are referenced in a myriad of other EU works, including "Star Wars: General Grievous", Insider, Labyrinth of Evil and so on, so they're very much canon to Legends.
-Defeated Asajj Ventress and Durge in a 2v1
-Handily defeated Ki-Adi-Mundi, Ti, Secura, K'Kruhk and Tarr Seirr while they were "exhausted" from fighting droids.
-Held his own in a sparring match with Count DookuOther prominent dueling feats include:
-Handily outsparring a group of MagnaGuards
-Purportedly being capable of killing four Jedi Knights, five of Palpatine's Red Guard, and several other gunmen, before any of them could activate their weapons
-Contending with Darth Maul for a short period of time during SOD #4 before being BFR'd
-Fighting evenly with Mace Windu atop a train roof, with extremely limited range of movement and only two lightsabers. Also worth noting that Grievous was capable of imitating Vaapad after "a single exchange" because of how powerful the computers in his brain are.Other important dueling attributes to note include:
-Grievous's lightsaber fighting style is comprised of all seven lightsaber forms, including Juyo and Vaapad
-Grievous has been called the greatest unarmed killer of Jedi the mythos has ever seen, by producer Rick McCallum
-Grievous's fighting style is incredibly unorthodox and unpredictable. His use of four lightsabers accompanied by the constant shift of intensity and velocity, as well as the extremely varied number of angles he attacks from, make him an incredibly difficult combatant to cope with in general and especially upon your first duel with him
-The computers in Grievous's brain are constantly feeding him data that allow him to adapt to his opponent's specific fighting style, allowing him to alter his offensive and defensive methods to suit the moment; not quite precog, but the next best thingI'm sorry, but Satele isn't in the same league.
-Lost to Ventress on Dathomir and was on verge of being executed before having his droids fire on her.
-Had his ass handed to him by... Kit Fisto.
-Nearly lost to Eeth Koth (even though Koth had to fight of his MGs while dueling Grievous) before resorting to his usual tactics.
-Had difficulty with Adi Gallia on at least 2 occasions.
-Stalemated by Nadhar Vebb...in sabers anyway.
-Had some difficulty with Ashoka Tano.
-Killed by Kenobi.
Grievous is nowhere near being on "another level entirely."
Oh, and this - "Handily defeated Ki-Adi-Mundi, Ti, Secura, K'Kruhk and Tarr Seirr while they were "exhausted" from fighting droids" - is an OCW reference BTW.
Jinsoku-
-Lost to Ventress on Dathomir and was on verge of being executed before having his droids fire on her.- Dathomir being a potent dark side nexus 👆
-Had his ass handed to him by... Kit Fisto.
-Nearly lost to Eeth Koth before resorting to his usual tactics.
-Had difficulty with Adi Gallia on at least 2 occasions.
-Stalemated by Nadhar Vebb...in sabers anyway.
-Had some difficulty with Ashoka Tano.
- Grievous was confirmed as not being at 100% during that fight, to say nothing of the fact Shii-Cho is incredibly well-suited to dealing with opponents using multiple sabers
- He wasn't even trying to kill Koth in that instance - he was trying to capture him. And he didn't nearly lose to him in sabers, try rewatching the fight 👆
- Good for Adi Gallia 👆
- Hardly a conclusive stalemate, Nahdar just contended for a long time before Grievous killed him using underhanded methods, which also does nothing to mitigate his other feats
- Ahsoka being able to evade him in some scenarios is a good feat for Ahsoka. Not much more to it than that 👆
Not sure where you're going with this.
-Killed by Kenobi.After Kenobi had ample time to get used to Grievous's fighting style, and while practising a fighting style that provides Kenobi a better means of defeating Grievous than any Jedi short of Yoda 👆
We can also talk about the various stalemates and wins Grievous attained over Kenobi during TCW, if you want? Although I'm not sure if that'll quite align with your lowball-tastic view on the topic.
Grievous is nowhere near being on "another level entirely."Maybe you could go about showing this with a modicum of coherence and logic. Better yet, provide and expound on some feats for Satele - oh, wait, she has none to suggest she's on Grievous's level. Hence why you and Neph have resorted to desperately trying to mitigate all of Grievous's feats, whilst interpreting any of his lower showings in the worst light possible despite clear circumstances and context being present, or them just being good feats for other characters 👆
Oh, and this - "Handily defeated Ki-Adi-Mundi, Ti, Secura, K'Kruhk and Tarr Seirr while they were "exhausted" from fighting droids" - is an OCW reference BTW.If you ever get around to practising the intricate art of reading, you'll note that I already acknowledged this 👆
I'm not sure why people bring up he was killed by Kenobi....I mean, yeah he was, but it wasn't by dueling skill. Obi-Wan was about to die if he didn't pick up Grevious' blaster that was laying on the platform. Not that I don't think Kenobi couldn't have won by that, but still as the duel went, Obi only won due to the blaster and revealing Grevious' organs which isn't something that would happen consistently in a fight with him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That only happened because Grievous ran away again and they both lost their sabers. Obi-Wan was clearly winning before that.
Right but as I said "As the duel went" Obi didn't win by skill. Plus, I'm not sure Satele can replicate what Obi-Wan can do anyway as far as dueling against Grevious goes, so bringing up that he was killed by Obi-Wan doesn't really fit as well.
Originally posted by ILS
Naturally.🙄
What's with the rolleyes? I presented reasons why, and I'm not exactly known as the biggest TOR pusher around here.
Both Mace Windu (RotS Novel), and Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary claim that Grievous is "more than a match for most Jedi".
Of course. Well and truly proven.
But Satele's probably the second strongest Jedi of her time, so doesn't apply much against her. She's known for being a legendary warrior, tremendously strong in the force, and matching up against famous opponents often enough.
No doubt Grievous is strong, he's beaten council members. But 'strong' and 'better' aren't synonyms.
In other words you've replied to probably the most minute aspect of that post and ignored everything else.
But Satele's probably the second strongest Jedi of her time, so doesn't apply much against her. She's known for being a legendary warrior, tremendously strong in the force, and matching up against famous opponents often enough.Your first sentence isn't even a valid argument until you both provide proof for your claim, and explain why it's even useful for your case at all - she's the second strongest Jedi of her time? Okay, so who is she better than as a result? Is she better than characters without any feats or someone that's actually noteworthy? Xesh is the greatest Force Hound in the Rakatan empire, and Force Hounds are confirmed as being along the lines of Jedi in terms of combat skill, but I bet most SWTORians around here would shit their pants immediately if I claimed that guy from the Dawn of the Jedi comics was as good as Satele.
No doubt Grievous is strong, he's beaten council members. But 'strong' and 'better' aren't synonyms.It's not even the fact these people are council members - Grievous's overall track record is full of accolades related directly to dueling which are highly impressive, fights against large groups of opponents, most of whom in these groups are pretty capable warriors, or close fights against some of the best fighters in the mythos. If you're still trying to make a case for Satele, then at the moment it looks like you're just going in the huff and denying that Grievous could potentially have a better dueling record than her - by a large amount.
I guess I should be the one who takes a look at Satele's track record?
Return:
-Is confirmed as being a well trained Jedi Knight
-Held off Malgus for a short period of time before coming close to death (Malgus had no known feats at this time, but had his best in the Empire accolade)
Hope-ish time period:
-Contends well against a more experienced Malgus but again loses to him before being saved
-Defeats/stalemates Darth Mekhis, a combatant who AKAIK isn't known for being a great duelist in really any capacity
-Has an even fight with Darth Baras - not sure what Baras has under his belt as a duelist, also not sure exactly when this fight took place, but again, not really all that impressive
She's also blitzed featless Sith and killed large amounts of various droids. People often say "but she wasn't GM yet when these feats took place, she wasn't in her prime" - still waiting for a source indicating she ever improved as a duelist by any noticeable margin.
So yeah, still having a hard time agreeing that Satele is within less than a tier of Grievous. Compare their track records, she has nothing to compete with Grievous.
Originally posted by ILS
And on this note, do people who are making a case for Satele also believe that Malgus can outduel Grievous? I'd be interested hearing a case for that notion as well, because I doubt he could.
Well, why do you doubt he could?
Grievous had numerous equals and superiors in his own time.
Malgus has defeated in duels, both Kao Cen Darach, Battlemaster of the Jedi order and the one who slew Malgus's master in a duel, and Ven Zallow, one of the greatest Jedi war leaders who took down normal sith like they were chaff, beat Lord Adraas, and was considered even more famous than Kao.
So, Malgus is quite clearly one of the best duelists of his time.
-Held off Malgus for a short period of time before coming close to death (Malgus had no known feats at this time, but had his best in the Empire accolade)
This is after the duel with Kao, and I'd say the clash between Satele and Malgus was more than a short one.
-Has an even fight with Darth Baras - not sure what Baras has under his belt as a duelist, also not sure exactly when this fight took place, but again, not really all that impressive
Darth Baras is one of the big climactic boss fights in the Sith Warrior campaign in TOR and in my opinion one of the most powerful of the dark council. He was able to easily overpower Dark Councilor Darth Angral, who in turn is known for beating down famous Jedi warrior Orgus Din twice.