Satele Shan vs. General Grievous

Originally posted by Q99
1. Grievous had numerous equals and superiors in his own time.

2. Malgus has defeated in duels, both Kao Cen Darach, Battlemaster of the Jedi order and the one who slew Malgus's master in a duel, and Ven Zallow, one of the greatest Jedi war leaders who took down normal sith like they were chaff, beat Lord Adraas, and was considered even more famous than Kao.

3. So, Malgus is quite clearly one of the best duelists of his time.

4. Darth Baras is one of the big climactic boss fights in the Sith Warrior campaign in TOR and in my opinion one of the most powerful of the dark council. He was able to easily overpower Dark Councilor Darth Angral, who in turn is known for beating down famous Jedi warrior Orgus Din twice.

2. Mind explaining to me why beating Kao and Zallow is better than say, being proclaimed as better than Ventress (Who has feats like giving Windu all he can handle, fighting evenly with or contending with Anakin, trading wins and losses with Obi-Wan Kenobi, engaging Kenobi and Anakin simultaneously, etc), fighting evenly with Mace Windu, or taking on five Jedi simultaneously (despite their fatigue).

3. Malgus is one of the best duelists of his time - but you'll be hard pressed to prove that the level of dueling competition during his time stacks up to what Grievous was thrown in with.

4. Baras being a climatic boss isn't a noteworthy dueling accomplishment. And I'm not sure what's great about defeating Angral.

Originally posted by ILS
1. Your point...?

Grievous is roughly as strong as a single Jedi council warrior like Fisto or so on. This is pretty well established. I'm not sure why you think this lets him beat up everyone.

2. Mind explaining to me why beating Kao and Zallow is better than say, being proclaimed as better than Ventress (Who has feats like giving Windu all he can handle, fighting evenly with or contending with Anakin, trading wins and losses with Obi-Wan Kenobi, engaging Kenobi and Anakin simultaneously, etc), fighting evenly with Mace Windu, or taking on five Jedi simultaneously (despite their fatigue).

Uh, Windu kinda crushed him. I mean, literally, physically crushed his chest!

And Grievous vs Ventress is a topic for some debate. After all, Ventress beat Fisto who had the edge on Grievous. Personally despite that comment I give her the edge, her performance tends to be better, especially the Anakin/Kenobi stuff.

Also, he didn't take the five on simultaneously, he hit one or two at a time til they went down, using mobility to avoid facing them all at once... and among the ones he took down there, included Jedi that Dooku said would beat him straight-up one on one. So clearly, the situation played a large role.

3. Malgus is one of the best duelists of his time - but you'll be hard pressed to prove that the level of dueling competition during his time stacks up to what Grievous was thrown in with.

Oh, so era bias.

Keep in mind we aren't even comparing best vs best. Grievous isn't best. Anakin, Dooku, etc. are best. Grievous is lower down.

Some eras may be a bit stronger than others... but when talking someone who's about top 3 in their era, vs someone who's definitely a good deal lower in theirs, simply arguing the 'level of competition' is a bit of a weak argument.

4. Baras being a climatic boss isn't a noteworthy dueling accomplishment. And I'm not sure what's great about defeating Angral.

"who in turn is known for beating down famous Jedi warrior Orgus Din twice."

I don't think your reading comprehension is that good. And/or you seem to view beating famous Jedi in one era as impressive, and in another era as something to write off.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Didn't H.O.T., Satele, and a few others get shit-stomped by Revan 3.0 after they showed up to take down his evil side?

Really, any skilled force wielder should. I know TCW Grievous gets a lot of crap, but realistically, that's what would happen to Grievous were he to go up against someone with the powers of a Jedi. Other versions try to make him out to be this colossal badass, as if he's a Terentatak with lightsabers or something. He's a cool in concept, but they should've put a little more work into him (i.e. make him an ex-jedi injured during the war, now fueled by vengeance as well as a good foreshadowing for what's to come for Anakin).

Not the first time we've seen stuff like this though. There is no reason the likes of Boba Fett should ever be able to hold his own against Darth Vader. IIRC, they also had him smarting off to Vader in front of his men. Yeah right. 🙄

Q99

Grievous is roughly as strong as a single Jedi council warrior like Fisto or so on. This is pretty well established. I'm not sure why you think this lets him beat up everyone.

Uh, Windu kinda crushed him. I mean, literally, physically crushed his chest!

And Grievous vs Ventress is a topic for some debate. After all, Ventress beat Fisto who had the edge on Grievous. Personally despite that comment I give her the edge, her performance tends to be better, especially the Anakin/Kenobi stuff.

Also, he didn't take the five on simultaneously, he hit one or two at a time til they went down, using mobility to avoid facing them all at once... and among the ones he took down there, included Jedi that Dooku said would beat him straight-up one on one. So clearly, the situation played a large role.

Dooku said no such thing, lmao.

Oh, so era bias.

Then again, the argument that Malgus is the best of his era, whereas Grievous isn't better than Yoda, allows Malgus to be better than Grievous, is lolworthy in of itself so I perhaps shouldn't bother taking the time to even rebut it in the first place.

Keep in mind we aren't even comparing best vs best. Grievous isn't best. Anakin, Dooku, etc. are best. Grievous is lower down.

Some eras may be a bit stronger than others... but when talking someone who's about top 3 in their era, vs someone who's definitely a good deal lower in theirs, simply arguing the 'level of competition' is a bit of a weak argument.

"who in turn is known for beating down famous Jedi warrior Orgus Din twice."

I don't think your reading comprehension is that good. And/or you seem to view beating famous Jedi in one era as impressive, and in another era as something to write off.

lol @ my reading comprehension being in question. Your entire case is a life-sized fallacy.

Originally posted by ILS
Q99
lolworthy. TCW Grievous who wasn't at 100%, and at a form disadvantage, lost to Fisto - EU Grievous is a different matter entirely.

TVW was at 100%. And EU Grievous... doesn't normally perform much different. Remember, Dooku did say that he'd run into big trouble against some of the Council's best, and then he, gasp, did just that!/

Dooku said no such thing, lmao.

He kinda did?

Btw, adding 'lmao' and such onto your lines make you seem kinda... dumb? Like you don't have an argument and you think you can substitute laughing in the place of backing up your arguments.

Sidious, Yoda, Windu, Dooku, RotS Anakin - all incredibly skilled duelists who would all defeat Malgus.

Actually I think people'd argue you on Dooku vs Malgus.... and besides, the list you'd name would all crush Grievous anyway, so so what?

"Grievous can beat Malgus because in his time there are people who can beat Malgus- and these people would similarly beat Grievous," is not exactly a compelling argument.

I mean, Grievous has the aforementioned duelists to worry about, who are all better than Malgus... who is Malgus better than that really matters?

Ah yes, the 'really matters' argument. Wherein someone can have accolades and several major victories, but because you don't feel those characters matter, you write them off.

So other than "being famous", what is great about Orgus Din?

Trained the Hero of Tython and saved the day in some famous battles. Has powerful telekinesis, used to collapse a cave.

Also, we're now actually four whole degrees from the people being talked about.

If "Well, but the person who the person who the person who the person fought doesn't have enough accolades!" is the best you can do...

[b]lol @ my reading comprehension being in question. Your entire case is a life-sized fallacy.

Because *three* degrees of beating famous warriors is obviously not enough for an argument 😉

And this is an example of the 'lol' thing making you look bad. You laugh and try and pretend like you don't have to respond to my argument, but all it does is it makes your argument look weak enough that you can't support it, just cover it up with a laugh.

Q99

TVW was at 100%. And EU Grievous... doesn't normally perform much different. Remember, Dooku did say that he'd run into big trouble against some of the Council's best, and then he, gasp, did just that!

"Look at what you let those Jedi do to you. You're a walking scrap pile. What a mess. It's going to take me forever to get you back into decent shape." - His medical droid

Grievous then get his new parts made and grafted onto him, couldn't have taken more than one hour, two at most, leading up to this point:

"In your condition you need your rest."

"I will rest when the Jedi are dead."
- Lair of Grievous

Actually, EU Grievous kind of does. Check out his respect thread.

He kinda did?

Btw, adding 'lmao' and such onto your lines make you seem kinda... dumb? Like you don't have an argument and you think you can substitute laughing in the place of backing up your arguments.

Are you upset that I'm laughing at your arguments? Is that why ad hominem is your failsafe? And I am backing up my arguments - point out where I'm not, by all means - I'm just laughing at the same time.

Actually I think people'd argue you on Dooku vs Malgus.... and besides, the list you'd name would all crush Grievous anyway, so so what?

"Grievous can beat Malgus because in his time there are people who can beat Malgus- and these people would similarly beat Grievous," is not exactly a compelling argument.

1. Bandwagon fallacy is irrelevant, you're arguing with me, nobody else.

2. Yes, that list would defeat Grievous (although suggesting Windu, Anakin or Dooku would crush Grievous in sabers is lolworthy), but the point I was making is that your argument is horseshit. Your claim was that Malgus is pretty much in the top 5 of his era, whereas Grievous isn't - my rebuttal is that Grievous's top 5 takes a massive shit on TOR's top 5 in sabers. So the era comparison doesn't work, and inherently, it's not a logical process to go by regardless - hence why a comparison of feats and dueling renown is what most logical beings fall back on.

Ah yes, the 'really matters' argument. Wherein someone can have accolades and several major victories, but because you don't feel those characters matter, you write them off.

Trained the Hero of Tython and saved the day in some famous battles. Has powerful telekinesis, used to collapse a cave.

Telekinesis is irrelevant in a discussion about dueling abilities.

Also, we're now actually four whole degrees from the people being talked about.

If "Well, but the person who the person who the person who the person fought doesn't have enough accolades!" is the best you can do...

That's really not what my argument boils down to. I originally asked for feats and accolades for Malgus to surpass being considered better than Ventress, fighting evenly with Mace Windu, etc, and so far you haven't provided.

Because *three* degrees of beating famous warriors is obviously not enough for an argument wink

It's a nice list, but it lacks substance. Grievous's track record quite clearly doesn't.

And this is an example of the 'lol' thing making you look bad. You laugh and try and pretend like you don't have to respond to my argument, but all it does is it makes your argument look weak enough that you can't support it, just cover it up with a laugh.

You planning on making a TCW Grievous respect thread, ILS? Or nah?

Yeah. Not my priority atm, though.

kk

Originally posted by ILS
Q99
He kind of wasn't, which you may have realized had you bothered to watch the episode instead of just watching it on youtube.

"Look at what you let those Jedi do to you. You're a walking scrap pile. What a mess. It's going to take me forever to get you back into decent shape." - His medical droid

Grievous then get his new parts made and grafted onto him, couldn't have taken more than one hour, two at most, leading up to this point:

"In your condition you need your rest."

"I will rest when the Jedi are dead."
- Lair of Grievous

Originally posted by ILS

Actually, EU Grievous kind of does. Check out his respect thread.

Pretty much everywhere, his results often are based on surprise, tiring opponents, using magnadroids, and similar.

Which means he's a smart fighter to be sure, but he's truly not all that overpowering.

Telekinesis is irrelevant in a discussion about dueling abilities.

True enough. Still, in a one-on-one fight, it comes into play, and when talking general strength, it certainly does.

Not really. You're trying to establish a hierarchy of skilled beings who lead up to Malgus.

And I've established that he's fought multiple people of impressive reputation and so on.

You don't need to go down a chain of 5 in order to establish someone is skilled, like you're trying to push.

Remember, the name list here: Malgus -First Degree is Shan, Kao, Zallow. -Second degree is Adraas, Vindican, Mehkis, Baras. -Third degree is Angral. -Fourth Degree is Orgus Din.

So, 10 names of some reputation can be linked. Probably more, really.

It's a nice list, but it lacks substance. Grievous's track record quite clearly doesn't.

This is especially silly coming from someone who defends Kolar, who's had fewer fights than Baras, and was brutally murdered in one of those fights.

By that standard, literally no name in TOR can be considered to have substances. Indeed, it seems like the qualifier for 'substance' seems to be 'what era are they from?'. For TOR, you require excessive quantity of wins.

Grievous goes down. Satele could go toe-to-toe with Malgus (even tho he wasn't at his prime). That plus her good enough Force mastery is sufficient to put her above Grievous for me.

Originally posted by ILS
You tell me.

Yes, she is.

Originally posted by ILS
Indeed?

Nobody said the quote was 100% accurate, but it's better than Satele's accolades 👆

Thanks for remembering to forget the part about Grievous providing a challenge for Dooku in sparring, though 👆

Yeah.

Eh, not especially. Few Jedi can beat Satele as well, and that "if any" was a super dumb statement of Dooku's since we know theres a quite a few Jedi who could beat Grievous (Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Fisto and probably more) and Dooku later contradicts himself by stating that there's many Jedi GG should run from or attempt to attack with numerous advantages.

It's consistent with his other showings of being around Obi-Wan, Ventress etc level so I have no issues with it other than to again state that I'm sure Satele could manage the same. Plus she has the Force.

Originally posted by ILS
Concession noted.

Hardly. I just chose to dismiss it later. Since most of the Jedi Grievous killed were, by your own admission, softened up by the Magnaguards it's not that impressive a feat.

Originally posted by ILS
Proof?

She's better with the Force. And her saber skills are comparable. She was blitzing Sith Warriors easily.

Originally posted by ILS
Hardly "all the credit". As was noted, most of the time the MagnaGuards were successfully killing the Jedi, it was just the rare few who got through that Grievous killed. As we've seen on a multitude of occasions, Grievous has had no issue slaughtering groups of Jedi all by himself. Thanks for attempting to lowball this, though 👆

Well obviously not all the credit. Just most of it. Killing a lot of winded Jedi isn't some next level shit like you think it is. Sure, GG can beat groups of Jedi. Just like Satele can beat groups of Sith. I was merely responding to this particular point as being greatly diminished by this information, not suggesting GG sucks.

Originally posted by ILS
inb4 TOR community would readily accept all feats for Satele if she was featured in OCW.

You know that I wouldn't.

Originally posted by ILS
- This isn't a counter-argument
- Here is the quote:

―Labyrinth of Evil

- Proof?
- Of course it is. Windu is well beyond Satele with a lightsaber.

- Magnaguards have been shown to be fodderish on certain occasions. Even CW movie Ahsoka can defeat groups of them. That GG can do the same isn't necessarily a demonstration of immense martial prowess that far exceeds Satele's.
- Yeah, not a clear indication. That he allowed them time to activate their weapons doesn't mean they couldn't have done so if he had attacked, merely that chose not to attack them before or during them arming themselves. If he had attacked, they still could have drawn their weapons whilst he was doing so. All the quote indicates it that he allowed them to without hassle.
- Proof that Satele can fight Maul for a short exchange? I suggest you look at her respect thread if you think her so weak that that needs to be proven to you.
- She can contend with him well enough. He wouldn't stomp her like you think. Her levels of skill and speed should adequately allow her to exchange blows with him.

Originally posted by ILS
- Wasn't saying it was the beginning and end of my entire argument, but your attempt at lowballing is once again noted 👆
- His durability is one advantage in a hand-to-hand fight. There's also his incredible strength and speed. At least it's another area in which he's superior Satele though 👆
- "Hello Ahsoka" isn't an argument. That's pathetic debating, it always will be 👆
- Could you repeat that for me, Neph? I couldn't it hear it over all of Satele's asshair down your throat 🙂
Well, you potentially got the last sentence right. Good job Neph 👆

- It's always been my belief that Drallig does possess high levels of skill. So that you see a comparison to him as lowballing speaks only to your own opinions instead of mine and that you clearly don't hold proficiency in all forms to be good enough that you'd defend it or value it overmuch. I complimented Grievous there. I just don't see that as on a separate level to Satele.
- Pretty sure he's not lightsaber proof though. Although... Satele could probably attack him telepathically like she did to the Hex droids. Grievous likely doesn't have much willpower.
- It would only be pathetic if you actually suggested Satele would have a tougher time against Grievous than Ahsoka did. You know she was able to hit him with the Force, right? If Satele can replicate the same then Grievous is pretty ****ed. Satele was said to have a proficiency for combat that eclipsed that of even Sith. She should be very capable of fighting Grievous' style, especially since her master was unconventional himself.
- I'm not sure women get much asshair. My words should be legible.

As an aside, I don't believe I've suggested that Satele is an equal or better duelist to Grievous. All I've pointed out is that nothing you said indicates that he's on a higher level to her. So even if he is better, it isn't to the extent you're suggesting and if we factor in the Force then Satele is likely the stronger fighter. Grievous' possible advantage in sabers isn't enough to overcome her immensely powerful Force attacks and defenses.

“TCW Grievous who wasn't at 100%, and at a form disadvantage, lost to Fisto”

Whatever… you keep advertising some BS form disadvantage while hyping his being trained in all 7 forms. Which one is it? If he has been trained sufficiently in all 7 forms, then there would not be a “form disadvantage.”

Grievous, after I first saw him in the CW cartoons, is imo a huge disappointment.

Originally posted by ILS
I don't see why Grievous isn't far beyond Satele; Satele is very good, but Grievous is just ridiculous, and should start being recognized as such more commonly.

Both Mace Windu (RotS Novel), and Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary claim that Grievous is "more than a match for most Jedi".

In Labyrinth of Evil, it's stated from Dooku's perspective that few, if any, Jedi would be able to defeat Grievous, and that on occasion even Dooku himself has been strained to defeat Grievous in sparring matches.

The RotS novel states that Grievous is the most prolific slaughterer of Jedi since Durge. In Star Wars: General Grievous and Insider 86 it's stated that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi personally.

In Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Dooku claims that Grievous is more formidable than Asajj Ventress.

Grievous's accolades on the whole outstrip Satele Shan's. As does his knowledge in the art of lightsaber combat. Dooku tutored Grievous in all seven lightsaber forms, and as a result Grievous trained his MagnaGuards in all seven lightsaber forms, to the point they became "more than a match for most", and to the point they could single handedly kill a Jedi Knight. It's also stated of MagnaGuards that most Jedi die to them, and the few that do get past Grievous's wall of MagnaGuards are always too tired to even put up a fight against Grievous.

As for feats, let's get OCW out of the way first since people will inevitably dismiss these first off. Although these events are referenced in a myriad of other EU works, including "Star Wars: General Grievous", Insider, Labyrinth of Evil and so on, so they're very much canon to Legends.

-Defeated Asajj Ventress and Durge in a 2v1
-Handily defeated Ki-Adi-Mundi, Ti, Secura, K'Kruhk and Tarr Seirr while they were "exhausted" from fighting droids.
-Held his own in a sparring match with Count Dooku

Other prominent dueling feats include:

-Handily outsparring a group of MagnaGuards
-Purportedly being capable of killing four Jedi Knights, five of Palpatine's Red Guard, and several other gunmen, before any of them could activate their weapons
-Contending with Darth Maul for a short period of time during SOD #4 before being BFR'd
-Fighting evenly with Mace Windu atop a train roof, with extremely limited range of movement and only two lightsabers. Also worth noting that Grievous was capable of imitating Vaapad after "a single exchange" because of how powerful the computers in his brain are.

Other important dueling attributes to note include:

-Grievous's lightsaber fighting style is comprised of all seven lightsaber forms, including Juyo and Vaapad
-Grievous has been called the greatest unarmed killer of Jedi the mythos has ever seen, by producer Rick McCallum
-Grievous's fighting style is incredibly unorthodox and unpredictable. His use of four lightsabers accompanied by the constant shift of intensity and velocity, as well as the extremely varied number of angles he attacks from, make him an incredibly difficult combatant to cope with in general and especially upon your first duel with him
-The computers in Grievous's brain are constantly feeding him data that allow him to adapt to his opponent's specific fighting style, allowing him to alter his offensive and defensive methods to suit the moment; not quite precog, but the next best thing

I'm sorry, but Satele isn't in the same league.

We all know than grievous kick durge and assaj ass !!!!!!!!!!!!!
But in the other hand : He get killed by obiwan? Did he? Why? He couldn not intimidate Obiwan and obiwan use the force.
The count tell to Grievous than if he don't have fear one his side he should retreat...
Satele is pretty solid. And if she is forced tp use her force power Grievous is just doomed.
It's up to grievous to blitz her.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Grievous, after I first saw him in the CW cartoons, is imo a huge disappointment.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
“TCW Grievous who wasn't at 100%, and at a form disadvantage, lost to Fisto”

Whatever… you keep advertising some BS form disadvantage while hyping his being trained in all 7 forms. Which one is it? If he has been trained sufficiently in all 7 forms, then there would not be a “form disadvantage.”