Captain America vs Viktor (underworld)

Originally posted by Star428
LOL. Viktor was not a normal run-of-the-mill vampire. He was a friggin' elder. Only Markus was superior to him in the vampire clan. I honestly don't see how Captain America can possibly hurt an elder like Viktor very much. Viktor was extremely fast and strong too. He snapped a Lycan's neck with his bare hands in the original movie.

I have to give this to Viktor.

Never said Viktor was a run of the mill vampire. Reread what I wrote. I even clarified more than once that my comment was a reply to the comment that NORMAL vampires were Cap level. Not named ones like Viktor or Selene.

Originally posted by Star428
LOL@"Viktor was ridiculously slow". Looks like someone didn't watch the original movie nor the "Rise of the Lycans" either. If you had already made up your mind that Viktor was not Cap level then why bother to make the thread?

Never said he was "ridiculously slow", either. I said he had ridiculous SOAK but he was slow. And comparatively in every fight he had, he was always shown as slower than his opponents.

I never said Cap would win the fight either and never said that Viktor was not Cap level. Jee-suz, did you speed read thru everything I wrote?

Originally posted by Star428
He had several speed feats. For one, he fought the hybrid Michael who was extremely fast. At first, he was having problems with keeping up with him but after he adapted to Michael's speed he was winning and almost snapped Michael's neck before Selene saved Michael.

In Rise of the Lycans, Viktor blitzed that poor peasant and snapped his neck. He moved from his chair to the peasant in a fraction of a second. If that's not a speed feat I don't know what is.

Reason there's not a ton of speed feats for Viktor is because he rarely needed to use his speed. The tough opponents he fought had impressive speed of their own that's why it didn't appear that he was using superspeed but he actually was. Besides, like you said, Selene before her amp was way beneath Viktor and we all saw how fast she was.

Being able to hit a faster opponent (who was unfamiliar with his abilities at that time and fought like a noob IMO) does not translate to him having the same speed as his opponent.

Pls post the peasant neck snapping scene. Because, from what I can recall, I seem to remember it showing Viktor taking a few steps forward (with him already moving forward off screen) and not simply blitzing the guy. I could be wrong here but if you have evidence, post it. Even then, that would be movement/running speed. Not combat speed, wouldn't it?

You cannot infer super speed that was never shown on-screen simply because his opponents were faster. He either shows his super combat speed or he doesn't have it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
She didn't really blitz him; she was in mid-air, sword in hand by the time he turned to face her.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to infer speed here. Viktor was an Elder and Elders are well-established to be physically superior to the rank-and-file vampire by orders of magnitude.

There's no reason to assume that pre-amp!Selene could compete with Viktor in any realm with the possible exception of sheer skill.

I disagree. She was a good distance away from him when she picked up the sword and he looked right at her. She still managed to blitz him.

http://i.imgur.com/iRwU92I.png

I disagree. In every showing he had, he always showed strength and skill but not speed. We can't infer "feats" without proof just because "he should have them" due to age. For all we know, he focused all his powers simply on getting tougher and stronger forgoing speed because he didn't need it. Or that he is slower because he is so strong and tough. Don't really know. Doesn't matter. He has no "feats" to showcase his speed.

I think she was faster than him.

doesnt matter if he's fast or not, Vik crushes Cap, you Cap fans need to realize that he's just an enhanced human, he has limits and frankly he's not it the same league as an elder Vampire

Aren't you the guy that said Blade was on Loki's strength level?

I said Loki was weaker than other Asgardians, who themselves weren't well represented strength wise in the movies...which has no bearing on whats going on here so do you have a point or are you just here to troll.

Viktor vs Cap is what we are talking about btw, try to keep up k

Originally posted by relentless1
the Asgardians haven't really been shown to be as strong as their comic book counterparts, as far as I can tell Loki is about the same strength as Blade and Blade for sure is leagues ahead of Loki in h2h expertise and combat speed

While it doesn't have a direct bearing on this thread, it has a bearing on you complaining about people overestimating someone's strength.

It rather nicely showcases your hypocrisy.

I still stand by that, nothing about Loki suggests that his strength level is much better than a guy like Blade, none of his movie feats really show anything beyond that, now; stick to the debate at hand troll, how can Cap get a win from Viktor??

Except for you know, blocking hits from guy like Thor who is >>>>> Blade in strength.

It is related to the debate at hand, as it shows how dishonest you are in gauging strength for debate purposes.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I disagree. She was a good distance away from him when she picked up the sword and he looked right at her. She still managed to blitz him.

http://i.imgur.com/iRwU92I.png.

I disagree. In every showing he had, he always showed strength and skill but not speed. We can't infer "feats" without proof just because "he should have them" due to age. For all we know, he focused all his powers simply on getting tougher and stronger forgoing speed because he didn't need it. Or that he is slower because he is so strong and tough. Don't really know. Doesn't matter. He has no "feats" to showcase his speed.

I think she was faster than him.

We can infer comparable speed because there's nothing to suggest that vampiric abilities are selectively assigned. The only thing the movies establish is that there's a correlation between age and power. Why should we think that power applies only to Viktor's arms and not his legs?

More importantly, if Selene really were capable of "blitzing" Viktor {she didn't}, why didn't she take him down herself? How was he able to tag her and put her on her ass? Why are Lucian and Kraven far more worried about Viktor than Selene?

You're being way too literalistic in your approach and disregarding context. Viktor would annihilate pre-amped!Selene: everyone in the film knows it, which is why the very same parties who are relatively unconcerned with her are terrified of him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We can infer comparable speed because there's nothing to suggest that vampiric abilities are selectively assigned. The only thing the movies establish is that there's a correlation between age and power. Why should we think that power applies only to Viktor's arms and not his legs?

More importantly, if Selene really were capable of "blitzing" Viktor {she didn't}, why didn't she take him down herself? How was he able to tag her and put her on her ass? Why are Lucian and Kraven far more worried about Viktor than Selene?

You're being way too literalistic in your approach and disregarding context. Viktor would annihilate pre-amped!Selene: everyone in the film knows it, which is why the very same parties who are relatively unconcerned with her are terrified of him.

No we can't. We don't suddenly make up abilities that aren't shown on screen.

Because it is shown in the wealth of fights he's had. Viktor vs Selene, Viktor vs Lucian, Viktor vs Micheal. Those were not quick fights. Sufficient time to determine the presence/absence of something as easily distinguishable as super speed.

Several possible reasons. Because until the end, she really didn't want to kill him (shown by her going from a look of confusion to a look determination when she finally decided that she had to kill him). Because, while she is indeed faster than him, he is still skilled enough to defend against her (as his fight with Micheal showed). She is not fast enough to be untouchable, but (with a little surprise on her side), she is able to blitz him. And he sucker punched her to put her on her ass btw (she was too busy on looking at Micheal while she slowly jogs towards him). Of course they'd be scared of him, Viktor is a very effective leader of his forces and is so tough and strong no Lykan can match him physically (which is their primary advantage vs vampires).

I did not disregard content at all. I'm taking all content at face value and did not use inference to argue my point.

Yes he would. In a fair fight, he's skilled enough to tag Selene and has her far outmatched in strength and soak. At the end, it was the fact that he was unarmed and she blitzed him while he was injured and slightly caught off guard.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
No we can't. We don't suddenly make up abilities that aren't shown on screen.

It's called inference and yes, when you have basis for it, you most certainly can. A literalistic approach is pretty much a dead end.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Because it is shown in the wealth of fights he's had. Viktor vs Selene, Viktor vs Lucian, Viktor vs Micheal. Those were not quick fights. Sufficient time to determine the presence/absence of something as easily distinguishable as super speed.

Fights that always involved other superhumans. Selene never displayed the sort of speed against every supernatural opponent that she did against those cops. Your approach dictates that she's only super fast against cops and not, say, janitors, since she's never been shown to fight janitors with superhuman speed on screen.

It's a dead end. There's nothing unreasonable to about assuming Viktor, an Elder and thus vastly superior to the likes of Selene, possesses comparable speed.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Several possible reasons. Because until the end, she really didn't want to kill him (shown by her going from a look of confusion to a look determination when she finally decided that she had to kill him).

You realize this works both ways, right?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Because, while she is indeed faster than him, he is still skilled enough to defend against her (as his fight with Micheal showed). She is not fast enough to be untouchable, but (with a little surprise on her side), she is able to blitz him.

Surprise. That's what I was looking for. So it wasn't a blitz. 👆

Originally posted by Nibedicus
And he sucker punched her to put her on her ass btw (she was too busy on looking at Micheal while she slowly jogs towards him).

Another hole in your literalistic approach: if she were terrified for Michael's life, why would she "slowly jog" towards him? Was she feigning concern? Was it a ploy? Did she intend to get pimpsmacked by Viktor so as to leave him vulnerable to attack by Michael?

Or maybe the movies aren't totally consistent and we shouldn't be 100% literal because that's not how logic works?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Of course they'd be scared of him, Viktor is a very effective leader of his forces and is so tough and strong no Lykan can match him physically (which is their primary advantage vs vampires).

I did not disregard content at all. I'm taking all content at face value and did not use inference to argue my point.

Yes he would. In a fair fight, he's skilled enough to tag Selene and has her far outmatched in strength and soak. At the end, it was the fact that he was unarmed and she blitzed him while he was injured and slightly caught off guard.

Which means we're back to square one. Selene did not and can't blitz Viktor. If she could, that fight would have ended much sooner, as would the entire movie. Everyone's scared of Viktor and for a reason: he's better than the likes of Selene and would crush people in her weight class pretty effortlessly. {Which obviously wouldn't happen if she can blitz him.}

You've made assertions and then followed them with tacit concessions. Selene can't blitz Viktor and she stands absolutely no chance against him in a 1v1 scenario. If she could blitz him, she would, regardless of their strength disparity.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
1) It's called inference and yes, when you have basis for it, you most certainly can. A literalistic approach is pretty much a dead end.

2) Fights that always involved other superhumans. Selene never displayed the sort of speed against every supernatural opponent that she did against those cops. Your approach dictates that she's only super fast against cops and not, say, janitors, since she's never been shown to fight janitors with superhuman speed on screen.

3) It's a dead end. There's nothing unreasonable to about assuming Viktor, an Elder and thus vastly superior to the likes of Selene, possesses comparable speed.

4) You realize this works both ways, right?

5) Surprise. That's what I was looking for. So it wasn't a blitz. 👆

6) Another hole in your literalistic approach: if she were terrified for Michael's life, why would she "slowly jog" towards him? Was she feigning concern? Was it a ploy? Did she intend to get pimpsmacked by Viktor so as to leave him vulnerable to attack by Michael?

7) Or maybe the movies aren't totally consistent and we shouldn't be 100% literal because that's not how logic works?

8) Which means we're back to square one. Selene did not and can't blitz Viktor. If she could, that fight would have ended much sooner, as would the entire movie. Everyone's scared of Viktor and for a reason: he's better than the likes of Selene and would crush people in her weight class pretty effortlessly. {Which obviously wouldn't happen if she can blitz him.}

You've made assertions and then followed them with tacit concessions. Selene can't blitz Viktor and she stands absolutely no chance against him in a 1v1 scenario. If she could blitz him, she would, regardless of their strength disparity.

1) It's a "dead end" (for you) because it only leads to you not having evidence to support your argument. You cannot use inference as evidence when there is such wealth of evidence pointing to the contrary. And where the same evidence should have easily supported your argument were you right. Essentially, it comes down to my evidence >>> your evidence.

2) Selene showed super speed when fighting Viktor. Her final blitz against him lopped off half his head before he could react. Not the same as the cops, but that was pretty fast from sword pickup to slash to landing. Throughout all this, Viktor just stood there. Micheal was blitzing Viktor left and right, too. Until he noobed it up and decided to grapple him. Super speed was shown by his opponents. Where was Viktor's super speed?

3) It's not unreasonable, yes. That is, were it not for the wealth of fights they showed where he could have displayed super speed.

4) And what would that prove?

5) My definition of "blitz" is to attack someone so fast, they would not be able to react. And Selene DID attack Viktor quickly and he WAS unable to react to it. Granted our definitions might differ tho as it is an informal term used in the forums often. But (via my definition of it) it was a blitz.

6) How is that a hole? This is a movie. There are times when ppl do things that don't make sense. Fact is, that is what happened in the movie. Watch the fight. She WAS slowly jogging to him. You have issues with that, talk to the director.

http://youtu.be/35iZsw4c0OU

2:42

7) If we do not take movie evidence literally, then anyone can just make up "evidence" to fit their argument and use inference as an excuse. While, in the absence of overwhelming evidence, a few inferences might make sense. This is NOT the case here.

8) Except she did blitz Viktor (tho a little bit of surprise was involved, but isn't that the case with many blitzes?). He was looking straight at her while her feet was on the ground to the point that she leapt up and lopped off half his head.

Also, I never said Selene would beat Viktor in a fight. That's a different thread.

Edited for formatting mishap lol, damned ipad.

After reviewing the posts mentioned I'm siding with Viktor on this one.

Originally posted by FrothByte
After reviewing the posts mentioned I'm siding with Viktor on this one.

I'll be honest, I'd side with Viktor, too. But I just disagree with him having super speed. :-p

-I think he's fast/skilled enough to tag Cap. Due to the Micheal fight.
-Much stronger and more lethal. While cap is stronger than normal vamps or Lykans. Viktor was shown to be MUCH stronger than they are to the point that he easily chumped possibly the most physically powerful Lykan there.
-Enormouse damage soak. And none of Cap's attacks are insta-kill unless it's a shield decaptitation.

It's not a stomp tho. But it'll go similar to Loki vs Cap with cap dodging around and landing a ton of hits before Viktor nails him eventually.

To be fair, it's not like Cap was able to land tons of blows on Loki. Loki was able to land a shot for every 2 or 3 that Cap did.

Originally posted by FrothByte
To be fair, it's not like Cap was able to land tons of blows on Loki. Loki was able to land a shot for every 2 or 3 that Cap did.

5-3 to be exact. Wasn't really a protracted fight. I meant the "ton" as in the fight between Cap and Vik. What I meant by the similarity would be more the tone of the fight. :-p

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I'll be honest, I'd side with Viktor, too. But I just disagree with him having super speed. :-p

-I think he's fast/skilled enough to tag Cap. Due to the Micheal fight.
-Much stronger and more lethal. While cap is stronger than normal vamps or Lykans. Viktor was shown to be MUCH stronger than they are to the point that he easily chumped possibly the most physically powerful Lykan there.
-Enormouse damage soak. And none of Cap's attacks are insta-kill unless it's a shield decaptitation.

It's not a stomp tho. But it'll go similar to Loki vs Cap with cap dodging around and landing a ton of hits before Viktor nails him eventually.

Wait, what leads you to believe Cap is stronger than Lycans? I'm genuinely curious why you say this.

Viktor did adapt to michaels speed. AT first he was getting blizted and then he adapted and was able to counter Michael. He clearly has some kinda of super speed in order to keep up with Michael

I don't believe Viktor sped up, more like Michael slowed down. In the first moments of the fight he was literally moving around so fast he might as well have been teleporting.

He shoved Viktor like 30 feet and was behind him before he even got up. Then after his speedblitz he suddenly forgot how fast he was and it turned into a brawl.

Or simply Viktor adapted to what was happening and his perception caught up to speed. You see these things happen in real life boxing all the time. Also, why couldn't it be that Michael couldn't continue to fight at those levels for a sustained period of time?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wait, what leads you to believe Cap is stronger than Lycans? I'm genuinely curious why you say this.

Viktor did adapt to michaels speed. AT first he was getting blizted and then he adapted and was able to counter Michael. He clearly has some kinda of super speed in order to keep up with Michael

I dunno. I think I meant to put stronger than normal vampires and somehow typed in Lykans in there. To be fair, I wasn't paying attention atm. I'm actually not sure where to put Cap with regards to the Lykans in were form. I DO think he's stronger than vampires, however.

Viktor didn't adapt to Micheal's speed. Micheal noobed up the fight, when he had Viktor outclassed in speed he suddenly decided it was a good idea to go in close, grapple and go on a sneering match with Viktor. Allowing Viktor to counterattack and daze him badly (apparently he has a bad chin). The only legit hit he ever got (when Micheal wasn't dazed or being stupid) was when Micheal charged in (after getting shot up badly by deathdealers) a straight line towards him, allowing him to tackle Micheal and go for a chokehold. At no time did he show any kind of superspeed, however.

At no time did Viktor show any superspeed during the fight, tho.