Originally posted by Nephthys
Well unless they do some cool shit in books or comics they've always underperformed or outright tripped over each other in the cartoons and movies.
The ep 3 novelization does refer to them as a team with great synergy, but really, their best feats are *always* solo, like others note.
Obi-Wan goes more offensive to keep up with Anakin, which reduces his defense. Anakin doesn't let loose as much.
Both of them together end up having trouble with Savage or Ventress, when Kenobi on his own can fight Savage and Maul together.
Originally posted by Q99Which he only managed due to briefly catching them off-guard and the claustrophobic environment 👆
when Kenobi on his own can fight Savage and Maul together.
Obi-Wan knew the Sith would expect him to take up a defensive stance in an effort to keep them at bay. But he also knew that tactic would give him no hope to prevail-he would be worn down until his guard slipped and then he would die, like Adi had.-Shadow ConspiracySurprise was his best bet for survival-and perhaps his only chance.
***some dialogue***
-and then he hurled himself at the two Sith, both sabers flashing in his hands.
The two Sith fell back, startled to find Obi-Wan taking the offensive and surprised by the ferocity of his attack. Sabers hissed, their blades striking sparks from the walls, leaving half-melted scrapes and bubbling burns in their wake.
The two Sith maneuvered to pin Obi-Wan against the wall-but there was so little room in the corridor that they got in each other's way. Savage charged in to strike, leaving his left arm exposed for a split second.
Also, inb4 non-canon
Originally posted by ILS
Which he only managed due to briefly catching them off-guard and the claustrophobic environment 👆
-Shadow Conspiracy
Sure, but it shows how with clever fighting he was able to fight two major badasses. Simply 'being aggressive in a smallish environment unexpectedly' gave him a flat-out edge against Savage and Maul combined (and also goes to show how sometimes things go very much against expected odds sometimes).
When he's with Anakin, that cleverness doesn't really come up.
And it's not just that. Obi-Wan vs Ventress is a fight he can hold his own in just fine... even though duo vs Ventress isn't all that overwhelming to her.
Originally posted by ILS
Seriously?This is the dude who whines about his favourites being lowballed?
Hilarious.
Well you can see it in the fight, Obi-Wan gets in Anakin's way and then when they try for a saberlock they have to stretch around each other and can't generate much power. Obi-Wan is easily seperated and when he rejoins he's instantly taken out again. It's not a good showing. Obi-Wan does particularly poorly. He tries to flank Dooku but he ends up just wasting time and deflecting some pot-shots from him instead of putting Dooku under any pressure.
Then Anakin pulls it off solo. So clearly he's more effective than they are as a team. Their uber-teamwork has always been an informed attribute.
Originally posted by Q99Sure, it shows cleverness on Kenobi's part. But then it could also be considered another example of how individuals perform better than duos. Maul and Savage, in open combat, have both faired better against Kenobi solo than together. Stick them together, with Savage's admittedly limited experience as a dueling partner, in poor circumstances, and Kenobi should by all rights do well against them.
Sure, but it shows how with clever fighting he was able to fight two major badasses. Simply 'being aggressive in a smallish environment unexpectedly' gave him a flat-out edge against Savage and Maul combined (and also goes to show how sometimes things go very much against expected odds sometimes).When he's with Anakin, that cleverness doesn't really come up.
And it's not just that. Obi-Wan vs Ventress is a fight he can hold his own in just fine... even though duo vs Ventress isn't all that overwhelming to her.
When he and Anakin fought Ventress I recall her running away from them until they had her on her knees. Outside of that there's the Savage fight where they were being pushed back (which could partly be due to the small corridor environment, and partly due to the fact this was the Savage who just got done choking Dooku and Ventress). With the Dooku/Ventress examples, though, Kenobi tends not to do well due to a disparity in Force power more than anything else. Remove that and they really are an unstoppable duo.
Originally posted by ILS
Sure, it shows cleverness on Kenobi's part. But then it could also be considered another example of how individuals perform better than duos. Maul and Savage, in open combat, have both faired better against Kenobi solo than together.
It's definitely dependent on teamwork skills, though. Savage and Maul were able to hold off Sidious together, and were destroyed individually.
Kenobi and Qui-Gon held off Maul, while Maul killed Qui-Gon.
Against Bane, Sarro Xaj and Johun was a hinderance to Xaj, but Johun was a boon to Rashka Lsu.
Grievous + even two magnadroids is much more dangerous than even just Griev.
Overall, two tends to be better than one. Sometimes the results are slower, but the outnumbered person tires out faster and even if they take out one, can still be vulnerable due to using up energy (Once Kenobi was down, the fight against Dooku became one on one, but Dooku still had used up the energy of facing two). It's only some specific cases where it's a hinderance.
They were being toyed with together. The only point in which Sidious was taking the fight seriously was right at the end, after Savage was dead. And even then, it's dubious if he was really putting in maximum effort. The Sidious fight is also a poor example because the circumstances are clearly different from when they fought Kenobi.
Having said that I agree, two is better than one. Same goes for Anakin and Obi-Wan as a duo, evidently.
The Sidious fight is also a poor example because the circumstances are clearly different from when they fought Kenobi.
Every fight has circumstances, ILS. Having the ability to use the environment to your advantage is part of combat; the setting could have just as easily favored the brothers if they played it as well as Kenobi did.
Originally posted by NewGuy011. Considering how outclassed they were, they wouldn't even have the opportunity to consider taking an environmental edge. They were too busy focusing on surviving.
Every fight has circumstances, ILS. Having the ability to use the environment to your advantage is part of combat; the setting could have just as easily favored the brothers if they played it as well as Kenobi did.
2. Suggest one environmental edge they could have taken in a massive, open throne room, or the even larger environment they entered after that?
Originally posted by ILS
1. Considering how outclassed they were, they wouldn't even have the opportunity to consider taking an environmental edge. They were too busy focusing on surviving.2. Suggest one environmental edge they could have taken in a massive, open throne room, or the even larger environment they entered after that?
I was talking about the Kenobi fight, bro. Where they weren't outclassed, and in a much less open environment. 😉
Originally posted by NewGuy01So your point is ultimately pointless, then, because there's no environmental advantage to be had in such a cramped cave. The best you could hope for is the brothers waiting outside the cave for Kenobi to come out and face them openly, which from a storytelling standpoint, isn't feasible.
I was talking about the Kenobi fight, bro. Where they weren't outclassed, and in a much less open environment. 😉
In other words, Kenobi had an edge that they lacked in that instance. It's as simple as that. He's smart, but he was also fortunate.
Originally posted by ILS
So your point is ultimately pointless, then, because there's no environmental advantage to be had in such a cramped cave. The best you could hope for is the brothers waiting outside the cave for Kenobi to come out and face them openly, which from a storytelling standpoint, isn't feasible.In other words, Kenobi had an edge that they lacked in that instance. It's as simple as that. He's smart, but he was also fortunate.
Well they could have just collapsed the cave on him. Or if they wanted a capture, ganged up with the Force to ragdoll him. Or if they wanted to use sabers, maybe Savage could form a saber wall while Maul goes on the offensive from the other side and drives him into it.
Originally posted by NephthysAll of which is prevented by plot, save for the capture scenarios of course. It's not exactly a foreign concept for superior Force users not opting to abuse their advantages. It's called PIS.
Well they could have just collapsed the cave on him. Or if they wanted a capture, ganged up with the Force to ragdoll him. Or if they wanted to use sabers, maybe Savage could form a saber wall while Maul goes on the offensive from the other side and drives him into it.