Did Kemp mess up or did i miss something. When vader and the emperor's shuttle crashed there were the two of them, 4 royal guards- "the four royal guards lay strewn about the passanger cabin", and the pilot and co pilot. The pilot and co died, as well as 1 guard, then palpatine has one of the guard, whose severely injured shot. So 2 guards left.
"He stepped thru first, followed by the pair of royal guards, then his master."
Then one more dies when the freighters attack- "One slammed into the chest of a royal guard and vaporized all of him save for his helmet."
So down to 1. But then- "Vader, his master, and the two royal guards stood untouched amid the smoking craters of blasterfire that pockmarked the terrain."
Did i miss something?
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Actually Fresh, Maul did beat Obi-Wan straight up, now yes he did lose to Obi-Wan but it was hardly because of any dueling skill.
TPM Maul was clearly > TPM Kenobi in direct combat.
But it was hardly the stompage Dooku gave ROTS and AOTC Kenobi. Considering Maul fought the weaker version of Kenobi and did so with more difficulty, clearly (in the Films only), Dooku was much more impressive than Maul.
Then given ROTS Vader couldn't defeat Kenobi, and ANH Vader couldn't defeat Old Ben and assuming Old Ben was out of shape (as Ben and Vader suggest in the movie), then clearly Dooku was more impressive than Vader too in terms of combat (in the movies).
Originally posted by Raptor22
Did Kemp mess up or did i miss something. When vader and the emperor's shuttle crashed there were the two of them, 4 royal guards- "the four royal guards lay strewn about the passanger cabin", and the pilot and co pilot. The pilot and co died, as well as 1 guard, then palpatine has one of the guard, whose severely injured shot. So 2 guards left."He stepped thru first, followed by the pair of royal guards, then his master."
Then one more dies when the freighters attack- "One slammed into the chest of a royal guard and vaporized all of him save for his helmet."
So down to 1. But then- "Vader, his master, and the two royal guards stood untouched amid the smoking craters of blasterfire that pockmarked the terrain."
Did i miss something?
The Guard are just so badass that they can come back from vaporization obviously.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then given ROTS Vader couldn't defeat Kenobi, and ANH Vader couldn't defeat Old Ben and assuming Old Ben was out of shape (as Ben and Vader suggest in the movie), then clearly Dooku was more impressive than Vader too in terms of combat (in the movies).
Well RotS Anakin defeated Dooku which kills your whole line of logic. Also not sure why you are claiming Vader "couldn't" kill Kenobi simply because he didnt do so before Kenobi decided to sacrifice himself.
Originally posted by ares834
Well RotS Anakin defeated Dooku which kills your whole line of logic.
Not really. How well would you expect ROTS Anakin/Vader to have done if the fight began with Dooku and Kenobi facing off against him?
Originally posted by ares834
Also not sure why you are claiming Vader "couldn't" kill Kenobi simply because he didnt do so before Kenobi decided to sacrifice himself.
Because that's what was shown in the movie before Kenobi sacrificed himself. Any "could have" and "would have's" beyond that in anyone's favor would be pure speculation.
^Why do you keep bringing up Anakin? No where in the films is it even hinted that Anakin got stronger after he got maimed. If anything getting cut into 4 pieces and burned alive certainly doesn't make most stronger. So yes Anakin beat Dooku that doesn't mean ROTS Anakin wouldn't demolish ROTJ Vader.
I was referring to the fact Vader utilized precise TK attacks and control of it during his duel with Luke, IE: Tossing things around at him.
Dooku never did this during combat film wise as precisely, yeah he TK grappled and threw Obi-Wan but that's about the extent of his TK movie wise. He never used it in such a precise fashion as Vader, who also showed more precise via saber throw in ROTJ.
Originally posted by ares834
Regardless, Anakin is directly stated to be more powerful than Dooku. So how he would have faired against the two doesn't really matter.
No he wasn't. Sidious states "SOON I will have a new apprentice. One far younger and more powerful." Not that he's already more powerful than Dooku ever was.
We're talking about whose more impressive in the film. I'd say it's the guy who stomped Kenobi (supposedly in his prime) to the guys who failed to defeat a much younger and much older version of him (Maul and Vader).
Granted ANH Kenobi may have been more powerful than ROTS Kenobi. And I hope the new canon confirms that, even though Lucas confirmed the opposite. But we're not taking commentary and speculation into account here. Just looking at movie feats.
Originally posted by ares834
No it wasn't. We don't know how he fight would have went down so to say they "couldn't" or that it was a "stalemate" is wrong.
In any case Vader fought Old Ben for well over a minute, with no sign of Vader even winning. Whilst Dooku had Kenobi flattened on the floor in 20 seconds, and stomped him in well under a minute. That whilst fighting off Skywalker no less.
It's pretty clear who was shown as more impressive in the movies.
I'm not even saying Vader > Dooku in Canon (old or new). Just that comparing movie feats it's pretty one sided. I really don't see what's to argue here.
When did Dooku ever use TK precisely against Yoda? The only thing Dooku did was throw an object at Yoda and then collapse a portion of a ceiling on him. The former is ok, but it's not to the extent of Vader's doing as Vader was doing multiple objects at a time rather than just one.
Not to mention, Vader also used it while in a saber lock with Luke so his concentration would have been split and he was flinging objects at Vader without even gesturing his hand or looking at the objects being flung.
Plus Dooku wasn't in combat with Yoda until the latter drew his saber, so it wasn't really an application of combat TK.
Originally posted by McP
Ah btw@Darth Power
How do you interpret a fight between Dooku and Kenobi in ROTS? Dooku could grab Kenobi with te Force whenever he wanted? Or he just could do it, because he outmanuvered him in a saber fight at first, after which Kenobi lost his balance and left his guard in the Force?
The second. He caught him off-guard mid-saber fight. Because if he wasn't caught off guard then he at least would have attempted to block it, like what happened with Anakin vs Kenobi. That's what happens when both combatants are fighting equally well.
That being said Dooku was still clearly more powerful in the Force, which is why his Tk attacks were so effective on Kenobi. Not like when Anakin caught Dooku off guard with a Tk attack in TCW Movie, and it just pushed him back a bit.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No he wasn't. Sidious states "SOON I will have a new apprentice. One far younger and more powerful." Not that he's already more powerful than Dooku ever was.
He said "soon" because Anakin wasn't his apprentice yet... Anakin was clearly meant to be more powerful than Dooku in RotS. Not only do we have him killing him when he uses the dark side, but we have Palpatine saying as much right there.