Originally posted by carver9
Legolas fought Bolg AND some monster in an alley and held the edge. If you think Rumlow with an electrical stick is close to being comparable to Borg with a sledge then I don't know what else to tell you.You honestly don't have any proof on how skilled those agents were. For all we know, they could've been hired on that same day. Who knows. Crazy thing is, they wasn't even trying to kill Cap, they were there to subdue him.
Bolg was fighting him with tops 1 other Orc as throughout the fight, he was mostly courteous enough to wait for Legolas to kill his buddies before attacking. Outside of that 1-2 seconds where he joined one orc, that is.
And Bolg was disarmed and fought h2h within seconds of the start of the fight. Funny thing is, if you wanna play the lowball game (like you are with the elevator scene of all things), Legolas MISSED his stab against a HUGE unarmed opponent like Bolg and even managed to get his arm CAUGHT.
Carver, will treat you with respect in debating but pls don't go h1 on me and do the whole "introduce absurd argument, shift burden of proof" game with me. Hydra would not send noob agents to restrain their most dangerous adversary in such a critical phase of their master plan. This is insulting to my intelligence and it should be insulting to yours. If you give me respectful, non-trolling arguments, I'll reply in kind. Fair enough?
Originally posted by Henry_Pym
The guys in the elevator were made up partially of Cap's strike team... Not noobs lol.
Exactly. Hell, Rumlow and Rollins (both of whom were in the elevator) were on the mission with Cap at the beginning of the film. So Carver's "hired on the day" nonsense is nothing but a very poor attempt at low balling. Either that, or he only partially watched the film on Youtube.
And I think that a full on edged shield bash would be just as lethal as a dagger strike. We've seen Cap cut through metal, sever alien limbs, easily one shot regular humans, and in the one trailer for AoU he seems to be fighting the main Ultron on top of a truck, and throws his shield hard enough to slice a couple of inches in Ultron's chest. That shield throw itself is enough to show that Cap holds something in reserve when he normally fights. If he threw his shield that hard against regular opponents, he'd murder them. Around the 1:29 mark.
Unless you think Legolas' head is going to be more durable than Movie Ultron, one full on shield strike to the face could possibly kill him.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Bolg was fighting him with tops 1 other Orc as throughout the fight, he was mostly courteous enough to wait for Legolas to kill his buddies before attacking. Outside of that 1-2 seconds where he joined one orc, that is.And Bolg was disarmed and fought h2h within seconds of the start of the fight. Funny thing is, if you wanna play the lowball game (like you are with the elevator scene of all things), Legolas MISSED his stab against a HUGE unarmed opponent like Bolg and even managed to get his arm CAUGHT.
Carver, will treat you with respect in debating but pls don't go h1 on me and do the whole "introduce absurd argument, shift burden of proof" game with me. Hydra would not send noob agents to restrain their most dangerous adversary in such a critical phase of their master plan. This is insulting to my intelligence and it should be insulting to yours. If you give me respectful, non-trolling arguments, I'll reply in kind. Fair enough?
Borg was on the losing end as well, with help which was my point. I think that scene shows Legolas skills in a tight situation.
I think Bolg is more powerful than the crew in the elevator and would've dominated them if he was in Cap shoes. How about this, let's get off that topic. I brought up the elevator as proof of Cap being tagged, more than once.
I agree about the agents, that's why I didn't use that statement as fact. I rough that up as proof of not knowing much about the agents without guessing. They are ftless. Anything we say about them is speculation.
Originally posted by carver9
Borg was on the losing end as well, with help which was my point. I think that scene shows Legolas skills in a tight situation.I think Bolg is more powerful than the crew in the elevator and would've dominated them if he was in Cap shoes. How about this, let's get off that topic. I brought up the elevator as proof of Cap being tagged, more than once.
I agree about the agents, that's why I didn't use that statement as fact. I rough that up as proof of not knowing much about the agents without guessing. They are ftless. Anything we say about them is speculation.
Which, when compared to Cap, is not at the same level.
Are you kidding me? What "feats" does Bolg have that makes you think he is more than 10x stronger than a well built human? Because that's what he's going to need to dominate a 10-on-1 attack like that.
There are categories of "featless" characters in fiction. I would say a "featless" elf > "featless" orc don't you agree? Again, this line of argument is absurd.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And I think that a full on edged shield bash would be just as lethal as a dagger strike. We've seen Cap cut through metal, sever alien limbs, easily one shot regular humans, and in the one trailer for AoU he seems to be fighting the main Ultron on top of a truck, and throws his shield hard enough to slice a couple of inches in Ultron's chest. That shield throw itself is enough to show that Cap holds something in reserve when he normally fights. If he threw his shield that hard against regular opponents, he'd murder them. Around the 1:29 mark.
So... do you think a shield strike to the body, let's say to the side of the body... is as deadly as a sword thrust to the side of the body?
Legolas was slicing through Orcs and their armor like they had no armor. Could you imagine Cap slicing through Orcs and their armor just as easily as Legolas?
Originally posted by FrothByte
No, I'm just trying to understand your epic lowballing of Legolas.
Give me the courtesy of a rebuttal or cencession to my points else don't expect me to waste time taking the discussion to another direction just to have my points ignored whenever you feel like it.
You understand that I might be a bigger LotR movie fan than you are right? I've had this avatar since I've joined and LotR is my favorite franchise bar none. I'm not lowballing, I just have a practical and realistic view of how powerful the characters are.
Originally posted by FrothByte
So... do you think a shield strike to the body, let's say to the side of the body... is as deadly as a sword thrust to the side of the body?Legolas was slicing through Orcs and their armor like they had no armor. Could you imagine Cap slicing through Orcs and their armor just as easily as Legolas?
With Cap's strength, skill and having a fairly sharply edged shield that literally cannot break, yes I do. A shield won't cut as deep as a sword or dagger, but it will leave a huge bloody mess of a wound, and the impact is more likely to cause bone fractures etc. There is a reason blunt weapons like maces, flails, morningstars etc. were also used often. They cause vicious and hampering wounds. Don't need something sharp and pointy to seriously hurt someone. And like I said, headshot is game over. He has multiple of feats of using his shield to hack through and slice things that are at least as tough as LotR orks. Just look how he, armed with just his shield, easily and utterly wrecked a Quinjet. When Cap wants to cause serious damage, he can.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
It's simple really, watch the highway scene and the end fight of WS between Bucky and Cap. Show us a fight/scene that Legolas have had that shows that he can fight at a faster pace in melee. That way, you can at least come up with a feasible scenario of him bypassing Cap's defense. And no, I'm not saying piercing the shield's durability. Never said that and don't know even where you came up with that...Oh, and the shield is vibraium and not adamantium btw. Just thought you should know that...
The "head moving" argument is absurd. It's not as if Cap never took hits from anyone who can follow up the previous hit with another attack..... He gets hit, and he simply follows up by defending from the next one or counterattacking. I mean, is there even a questiin of what will happen next?
Bolg landed one punch to his face (beyond tossing him around which didn't do much) and at the end of the fight Leg needed to lean against something as he was dazed and gasping for air. Now imagine him fighting someone who is stronger and hits faster and way harder and strings comboes when he hits. One hit would daze the him enough to get finished off.
Heck, in BoFTA, Bolg had him dead to rights if Thorin hadn't interrupted.
Put it this way... I have feats of Legolas as a whole beating superior people than Cap beat. If you wanna talk numbers, the numbers overall support Legolas fighting better people. Sure, on the high end Cap has fought a little better I would say. No argument there, but Legolas has fought countless Urak-hai who I'd fashion to be significantly stronger than regular humas or agents. Plus they had better armor to bypass and were more durable. So, Legolas middle ground is much higher than Cap's. Than when you add in top players like Bolg it shifts to Legolas fighting superior people overall. I could even bring up Legolas taking down the huge Mammoth with utter ease. Should I talk about hos the mammoth was easily bigger and stronger than Cap and likely more durable? Well that is what precision arrows will do for ya
It's absurd? lol wut? You do realize that is how most fight are won right.. creating and opening or exploiting one and pressing said advantage. To even think that is absurd or not likely, tells me you should watch more boxing or MMA. That fighting 101 and how most fights are decided. So yes, it very much matter that Legolas could move his head with blows to create opening for even more potent attacks like arrows shots. or knife stabs. Legoals poops all over cap when it comes to weapon melee.... If even the slightest opening presents itself Legolas will take advantage. The same precision and skillfulness couldn't and shouldn't be given to Cap. So the person most likely to take advantage of opening created with precision and deadly skill would be Legolas
I'm genuinely curious about something... Why do you believe Cap is so much stronger than Bolg? I don't believe that for one second. I'd say the Urak-hai in general.. even the fodder ones are stronger and more durable than most humans. Bolg is even stronger than that. Now, it's hard to say exactly how strong he is... but I won't put him far behind Cap at all. Would you? Yeah, he took shots from him while having to fight other dudes in a very enclosed space. Legolas isn't the tank Cap is.... He's very good in closed space but that doesn't mean he's best there against a strong tank himself. Yet, he still looked superior in the fight.
one hit didn't daze him... He was slammed a few times AND hit.. and he had just fought off many dudes in the Bard's house.. then proceeded to kill more dudes along the way to Bolg... then fought Bolg... Then after he fled.. took a moment to breathe. No biggie and what most would do.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiWho did Legolas beat that was superior to Winter Soldier or Red Skull?
Put it this way... I have feats of Legolas as a whole beating superior people than Cap beat.
Or are you just not including them?
The Chitauri were at least on par with Orks, most likely superior physically.
Oh, and Cap has better strength feats than Bolg. So there's that, correct me if I'm wrong. What strength feats put Bolg on Cap's level?
Originally posted by Mindset
Who did Legolas beat that was superior to Winter Soldier or Red Skull?Or are you just not including them?
The Chitauri were at least on par with Orks, most likely superior physically.
Oh, and Cap has better strength feats than Bolg. So there's that, correct me if I'm wrong. What strength feats put Bolg on Cap's level?
Did you read the post.. I said as a whole i.e. overall. I know you didn't, because if you did, you'd see I said that Cap beat higher end foes. Beating bucky was superior to anybody that Legolas beat. However, Legolas killed many more foes that were superior to the majority of foes Cap faced. The majority of who Cap faced wasn't Bucky type Characters.. they were vastly inferior to him. So if you read what I said... it comes down to Legolas middle being superior to Cap's middle... Then when you include Bolg.. That could swing the level of OVERALL foes beaten in Legolas favor. That is what I said.
Should I bring up that the Mammoth Legolas took down is bgger, stronger and more durable than Cap? You seem to think Cap beating bucky counts for more than Leoglas beating cap cause Bucky is this and that compared to Bolg. Well, by that logic then, the Mammoth is this and that better than Cap and Legolas took him down easily
I never said Bolg wasn't as strong or stronger. Another example of not reading the post my friend. I said very clearly, he close behind Cap or Bucky in strength and I stand by that. Maybe not quite as strong... but he' close enough that Cap's strength wouldn't be the deciding factor. You think the Chitari are stronger than Bolg?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Put it this way... I have feats of Legolas as a whole beating superior people than Cap beat. If you wanna talk numbers, the numbers overall support Legolas fighting better people. Sure, on the high end Cap has fought a little better I would say. No argument there, but Legolas has fought countless Urak-hai who I'd fashion to be significantly stronger than regular humas or agents. Plus they had better armor to bypass and were more durable. So, Legolas middle ground is much higher than Cap's. Than when you add in top players like Bolg it shifts to Legolas fighting superior people overall. I could even bring up Legolas taking down the huge Mammoth with utter ease. Should I talk about hos the mammoth was easily bigger and stronger than Cap and likely more durable? Well that is what precision arrows will do for yaIt's absurd? lol wut? You do realize that is how most fight are won right.. creating and opening or exploiting one and pressing said advantage. To even think that is absurd or not likely, tells me you should watch more boxing or MMA. That fighting 101 and how most fights are decided. So yes, it very much matter that Legolas could move his head with blows to create opening for even more potent attacks like arrows shots. or knife stabs. Legoals poops all over cap when it comes to weapon melee.... If even the slightest opening presents itself Legolas will take advantage. The same precision and skillfulness couldn't and shouldn't be given to Cap. So the person most likely to take advantage of opening created with precision and deadly skill would be Legolas
I'm genuinely curious about something... Why do you believe Cap is so much stronger than Bolg? I don't believe that for one second. I'd say the Urak-hai in general.. even the fodder ones are stronger and more durable than most humans. Bolg is even stronger than that. Now, it's hard to say exactly how strong he is... but I won't put him far behind Cap at all. Would you? Yeah, he took shots from him while having to fight other dudes in a very enclosed space. Legolas isn't the tank Cap is.... He's very good in closed space but that doesn't mean he's best there against a strong tank himself. Yet, he still looked superior in the fight.
one hit didn't daze him... He was slammed a few times AND hit.. and he had just fought off many dudes in the Bard's house.. then proceeded to kill more dudes along the way to Bolg... then fought Bolg... Then after he fled.. took a moment to breathe. No biggie and what most would do.
Paragraph 1:
Killing more opponents overall does not translate to him fighting better opponents. Especially when he had, at one point, a giant fortress, a small army and hours to rack up a decent kill count. Oh and he only really killed 42 Uruks in the battle of Helm's Deep. One less than the slower and shorter dwarf who didn't even have the advantage of using a bow. I would think that the concept of Quantity =/= Quality would be common sense.
It's not about who is physically stronger, it is about who is more effective in combat. Agents are better armed than Uruks. I'd wager the agent with the mini gun would rack up dozens of Uruk kills and the regular agents with the assault rifles and grenade launchers would rack up kills not too far behind, so no, you'd be totally wrong about Uruks > Agents.
And (according to forum consensus) WInter Soldier with standard gear would kill the hell out of Azog, Bolg AND Lurtz and not even break a sweat.
You're using him killing a mammoth who WASN'T directly attacking him as a basis of him fighting superior opponents?? /facepalm the damn thing couldn't even do anything about having someone climb on top of him and (most likely) wasn't even aware Legolas was there in the first place.... But you know what? I'll play your little game.
Quinjet >>>>> Mammoth.
And (if we base it in when each character managed to get in melee range) he took one down in less time that it took Legolas to take down the Mammoth. Oh, and the Quinjet was actually attacking Cap.
Bear in mind that I'm not even going to go into the damned hellicarriers (one would prolly have won the entire middle earth war -all of them- by itself) he took down as that would be overkill. If we followed your logic, however, this should count.
I'd say OWNED. Don't you think?
In closing. In term of quality of opponents: Cap >>>> Legolas.
Paragraph 2:
It is absurd because you assume that being comboed is somehow going to be enough for Cap to be open/vulernable to a follow-up kill strike when ALL ON SCREEN SHOWINGS of Cap being comboed and getting hit by much stronger hitting opponents trying to make an opening for a kill strike show that he is capable of defending from combination attacks. Watch his both his battles with WS, they were stringing combination attacks in rapid succession and Cap was able to defend against them well enough.
http://youtu.be/qXPOl6EjbWg
http://youtu.be/I_jVXcRvhTs
While Legolas couldn't even pull this magical combo kill on a far slower, weaker, far less skilled opponent than Cap without a LOT of trouble and a little help. Bolg actually had him dead to rights if it weren't for Thorin's help.
But, yes, given enough time, Legolas could plausibly get an opening. I can agree to that. Unfortunately for him, Cap won't give him the time. Once it gets to melee combat, Legolas isn't lasting long vs Cap.
Paragraph 3:
Bolg has no "feats" that would put him anywhere stronger than his physical build would make him. That is that of a mid-7'+ heavily muscular humanoid. Cap, however, has "feats" that put him well beyond his size/build. Lifting a 400 lbs (at least) bike with 3 girls sitting on it with absolutely no effort, for one (700-800 lbs at least, easily beating the current world record). That puts him in the multiples of strength for his build. I'd say he would be 1.5-2x stronger than Bolg unless you can show actual "feats" for Bolg performing outside his build.
Yes, Legolas had a slight edge to Bolg in their fights (tho Bolg almost had him at the end of BotFA had Thorin not intervened). But Bolg is not even in the same weight class as Cap in terms of formidability. Cap is stronger. Much faster and much much more skilled than that lumbering orc. This is not even a question.
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The hit absolutely hurt him.
It sent him spinning around (1:46) his legs were unsteady and he actually needed to steady himself (1:58) and he had a bloody nose after.
And no, heneeded support not because he "took a breather". Legolas has fought entire battles for hours and never gotten tired in many many showings.
Oh, and to Frothbyte:
For your benefit: I present, Captain America defending against point blank pistol shots aiming against different body parts in rapid succession (head then legs then torso) in an attempt to bypass shield defense:
(0:37)-(0:39)
Time to put that part of your argument to rest, don't you think?
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiI read your post, it's nonsense. Why would you average all his competition to say he fought overall better people? That's like saying he killed 100 ants then fought a dragon, so overall he fought better competition, it's stupid.
Did you read the post.. I said as a whole i.e. overall. I know you didn't, because if you did, you'd see I said that Cap beat higher end foes. Beating bucky was superior to anybody that Legolas beat. However, Legolas killed many more foes that were superior to the majority of foes Cap faced. The majority of who Cap faced wasn't Bucky type Characters.. they were vastly inferior to him. So if you read what I said... it comes down to Legolas middle being superior to Cap's middle... Then when you include Bolg.. That could swing the level of OVERALL foes beaten in Legolas favor. That is what I said.Should I bring up that the Mammoth Legolas took down is bgger, stronger and more durable than Cap? You seem to think Cap beating bucky counts for more than Leoglas beating cap cause Bucky is this and that compared to Bolg. Well, by that logic then, the Mammoth is this and that better than Cap and Legolas took him down easily
I never said Bolg wasn't as strong or stronger. Another example of not reading the post my friend. I said very clearly, he close behind Cap or Bucky in strength and I stand by that. Maybe not quite as strong... but he' close enough that Cap's strength wouldn't be the deciding factor. You think the Chitari are stronger than Bolg?
Cap has fought and beaten superior opponents than Legolas has. Cap has fought and beaten people on the same level as the competition Legolas has beaten. Cap is the more accomplished warrior, your equivocating aside.
Why would you bring up the mammoth, did it know martial arts? Was it a great fighter? Oh...what's that, it was a phucking mammoth? OK.
"You seem to think Cap beating bucky counts for more than Leoglas beating cap cause Bucky is this and that compared to Bolg. Well, by that logic then, the Mammoth is this and that better than Cap and Legolas took him down easily"
Can you translate this into English for me?
You asked: "Why do you believe Cap is so much stronger than Bolg?"
I told you why he believed Cap is so much stronger.
Did YOU read your post?