Originally posted by Nibedicus
Paragraph 1:Killing more opponents overall does not translate to him fighting better opponents. Especially when he had, at one point, a giant fortress, a small army and hours to rack up a decent kill count. Oh and he only really killed 42 Uruks in the battle of Helm's Deep. One less than the slower and shorter dwarf who didn't even have the advantage of using a bow. I would think that the concept of Quantity =/= Quality would be common sense.
It's not about who is physically stronger, it is about who is more effective in combat. Agents are better armed than Uruks. I'd wager the agent with the mini gun would rack up dozens of Uruk kills and the regular agents with the assault rifles and grenade launchers would rack up kills not too far behind, so no, you'd be [b]totally wrong
about Uruks > Agents.And (according to forum consensus) WInter Soldier with standard gear would kill the hell out of Azog, Bolg AND Lurtz and not even break a sweat.
You're using him killing a mammoth who WASN'T directly attacking him as a basis of him fighting superior opponents?? /facepalm the damn thing couldn't even do anything about having someone climb on top of him and (most likely) wasn't even aware Legolas was there in the first place.... But you know what? I'll play your little game.
Quinjet >>>>> Mammoth.
And (if we base it in when each character managed to get in melee range) he took one down in less time that it took Legolas to take down the Mammoth. Oh, and the Quinjet was actually attacking Cap.
Bear in mind that I'm not even going to go into the damned hellicarriers (one would prolly have won the entire middle earth war -all of them- by itself) he took down as that would be overkill. If we followed your logic, however, this should count.
I'd say OWNED. Don't you think?
In closing. In term of quality of opponents: Cap >>>> Legolas.
Paragraph 2:
It is absurd because you assume that being comboed is somehow going to be enough for Cap to be open/vulernable to a follow-up kill strike when ALL ON SCREEN SHOWINGS of Cap being comboed and getting hit by much stronger hitting opponents trying to make an opening for a kill strike show that he is capable of defending from combination attacks. Watch his both his battles with WS, they were stringing combination attacks in rapid succession and Cap was able to defend against them well enough.
http://youtu.be/qXPOl6EjbWg
http://youtu.be/I_jVXcRvhTsWhile Legolas couldn't even pull this magical combo kill on a far slower, weaker, far less skilled opponent than Cap without a LOT of trouble and a little help. Bolg actually had him dead to rights if it weren't for Thorin's help.
But, yes, given enough time, Legolas could plausibly get an opening. I can agree to that. Unfortunately for him, Cap won't give him the time. Once it gets to melee combat, Legolas isn't lasting long vs Cap.
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Bolg has no "feats" that would put him anywhere stronger than his physical build would make him. That is that of a mid-7'+ heavily muscular humanoid. Cap, however, has "feats" that put him well beyond his size/build. Lifting a 400 lbs (at least) bike with 3 girls sitting on it with absolutely no effort, for one (700-800 lbs at least, easily beating the current world record). That puts him in the multiples of strength for his build. I'd say he would be 1.5-2x stronger than Bolg unless you can show actual "feats" for Bolg performing outside his build.
Yes, Legolas had a slight edge to Bolg in their fights (tho Bolg almost had him at the end of BotFA had Thorin not intervened). But Bolg is not even in the same weight class as Cap in terms of formidability. Cap is stronger. Much faster and much much more skilled than that lumbering orc. This is not even a question.
Paragraph 4:
The hit absolutely hurt him.
It sent him spinning around (1:46) his legs were unsteady and he actually needed to steady himself (1:58) and he had a bloody nose after.
And no, heneeded support not because he "took a breather". Legolas has fought entire battles for hours and never gotten tired in many many showings. [/B]
I never argued that Cap doesn't have a higher end opponent in WS than anybody Legolas beat. If fact, I said that very thing, so I'm not sure how this was misunderstood. Regardless, yes I agree WS is better. My argument is... that the medium that Legolas beat surpasses the medium that Cap beat and by a significant margin in terms of number. That is the argument I presented. I didn't even come to the conclusion that this means Legolas face better overall, I simply stated an argument could be made with Legolas having such a high medium
You're better than this Nib and I know you are. You used a faulty comparison in order to support your argument. Imagine you saying the U.S. of today would beat the U.S. of world war 2. That is the exact line of logic you just used. It's all about the time frame and what you had to work with and the level of foe. Of course ARMED guys with guns are going to beat Urak-hais with swords. Hence why I said you're better than this. However, I know you're smart enough to know how bad of a comparison this was and why it's faulty logic. Legolas doesn't have weapons like today.. he doesn't have a shield to block gun fire... shit there are no guns. All he had was a bow... knives and a sword. He was also fighting guys with similar equipment and he owned them. THAT is where the comparison begins.. and then we look at Cap with alien materials.. and the weapons he had at his disposal against who he faced. That is how we make the comparison.. not ohhh cap faced harder because he faced guys with guns and those guys would mow down Urak-hais.. WUT??? Just like we wouldn't compare the US of 1845 with the US of 2015 and who would win. You would look at who they faced... what they and their foes had to work with at the time and how they performed in said time period.
I through in the Elephant because that is the line of logic I was seeing... Ohhh WS was faster... stronger.. more skilled... more durable than Bolg thus he fought better. So I used that same line of logic to say.. in semi serious sense to go.. Well... The elephant was bigger... stronger.. more powerful than WS.. SO... That is why I brought it up, not because I think it's crucial to the argument.
That is EXACTLY what I'm assuming because that is EXACTLY how every fight goes and how a winner is decided. Even if it's a 3 second boxing match where one guy lands one punch counter. An opening was presented via movement.. angles and was capitalized on. This is also how Cap would win... that is how fights go. So yes, it's very much important to the discussion and you dismissing it is perplexing to say the least. My contention is that because Legolas is more skilled in combat (which you admitted) that HE would find more openings.. not the other way around. The more skillful guy almost always will find the opening quicker and sooner than a less skilled one. It's like the more you play a sport.. the more you see things before they happen. Same thing here. Legolas is much more likely to take advantage of openings being the more skilled combatant. This doesn't mean that him exploiting them would lead to victory. I could just mean he's ahead on points (boxing reference) but gets KO'd in the 10th round. I'm not saying it will be enough to win, but opening and exploiting them is very important, and Legolas would have the advantage there. Whether it's enough for victory.. who knows.
See this is where you're wrong and it's a powerscaling thing. I admit Cap is likely still stronger but not decidedly so by any means is my point. Remember Urak-hais are stronger than Regular humans. Legolas ROUTINELY overpowered them with hits.. throws and movement. He wasn't able to do the same with Bolg. So your human reference I believe is far off. Urak-hias are stronger than regular humans by a far degree and Legolas would easily dispose of them by the hundreds. He couldn't easily dispose of Bolg. That tells me Bolg is even more significantly stronger than the Urak-hais and humans. No Bolg doesn't have lifting feats or strength feats really. however, if regular urak-hais are stronger than humans.. and he's bigger and stronger than them.. well he's pretty damn strong I'd say. I'd still strength to Cap.. but it wouldn't be the factor the fight was decided upon.. Bolg is strong enough that it won't be. That is all i'm saying. Legolas dealt with him and matched him in strength at one point.
I agree the punch hurt him.. I even said as much. I just don't think it hurt him as much as you claim. It's like this.. If you're in a street fight and the guy runs away after clocking you. just cause I stand there and hold my jaw and go damn that was a tough fight... Doesn't mean I was unable to continue or the punch took that much out of me. It's all conjecture really, but to me it looked more like a ... damn that kinda hurt and that dudes tough kinda expression. Who's to say though. I'm not saying you're wrong.. we just disagree on how much it hurt him.