Thought I'd post a response, it's been a minute since I posted on the KM forums.
Equality is a bunch of crap. Equality is only a matter of personal perspective. Religion is one of the main sources for an inequality between individuals as it sets a scale for behavior. With the existence of two conscious entities there is no longer equality, there is a comparison. If you are appealing to someone outside yourself for equality, you, yourself, are stating that there is not an equality. Also, if someone can grant "equality" then there is a substantive inequality.
Do you people notice equality in the nature and the universe?
Even in a human society, people are not equal in different aspects.
Equality is a social construct. It is fine for certain aspects of a human society but it is not applicable to the ground realities of the universe we are part of.
Satan cannot be God because he is not. Simple.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you people notice equality in the nature and the universe?Even in a human society, people are not equal in different aspects.
Equality is a social construct. It is fine for certain aspects of a human society but it is not applicable to the ground realities of the universe we are part of.
Satan cannot be God because he is not. Simple.
Even simpler: Satan doesn't exist. He is just part of a story written by humans.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Even simpler: Satan doesn't exist. He is just part of a story written by humans.
It seems that Christians tend to blame "Satan" for their wrong doing. If a Christian does something wrong or right, they need to take some personal responsibility and quit blaming God or Satan for it.
Originally posted by Regret
It seems that Christians tend to blame "Satan" for their wrong doing. If a Christian does something wrong or right, they need to take some personal responsibility and quit blaming God or Satan for it.
It seems that you are generalizing. No one, thinks the same, or deals with things the same. This is something that you may want to think about before bunching everyone up, and slapping the the blame it on everything other than themselves tag. You have to also understand that people tend to grow in their minds, and that what they may be today, is not what they may be in 10 years from now. opinions like the one you have, can destroy your life, because unless you change, it will be just another rule that you tacked to yourself without seeing things for what they truly are. Huh? What? You don't get it? Not everyone is the same, and people can change, and do change when they learn that their path is wrong.
I agree that all people not just Christians need to own the crap that they do, and be responsible for their actions. Not everyone can or have been able to see this. but one day they may be able to. Everything is a learning process, so if you believe that you have no faults then continue lobbing stones. Not everyone lives in glass houses i guess.
Originally posted by Stoic
It seems that you are generalizing. No one, thinks the same, or deals with things the same. This is something that you may want to think about before bunching everyone up, and slapping the the blame it on everything other than themselves tag. You have to also understand that people tend to grow in their minds, and that what they may be today, is not what they may be in 10 years from now. opinions like the one you have, can destroy your life, because unless you change, it will be just another rule that you tacked to yourself without seeing things for what they truly are. Huh? What? You don't get it? Not everyone is the same, and people can change, and do change when they learn that their path is wrong.
Originally posted by Stoic
I agree that all people not just Christians need to own the crap that they do, and be responsible for their actions. Not everyone can or have been able to see this. but one day they may be able to. Everything is a learning process, so if you believe that you have no faults then continue lobbing stones. Not everyone lives in glass houses i guess.
Appealing to something, which is unseen, outside of the core self as a cause for incorrect behavior is a stumbling block to correcting the behavior by placing a part of the cause outside of one's own control. It allows an excuse. Regardless of whether Satan exists or not is irrelevant if you can behave differently. It's a factor that doesn't appear to be of any import.
Originally posted by Regret
I did generalize, hence the statement "Christians tend to..." In my experience it is a generalized statement to say that Christians blame the wrongs they do on either their physical failing as being "born in sin" and thus having a predisposition towards "sin" which is outside of their "spiritual self" or on the influence of a devil which is typically categorized as Satan.I said nothing about myself being perfect. My statement was to the tendency stated above. I am not positive if you are speaking to something different with the statement that "people tend to grow in their minds, and that what they may be today, is not what they may be in 10 years from now."
Appealing to something, which is unseen, outside of the core self as a cause for incorrect behavior is a stumbling block to correcting the behavior by placing a part of the cause outside of one's own control. It allows an excuse. Regardless of whether Satan exists or not is irrelevant if you can behave differently. It's a factor that doesn't appear to be of any import.
Many Christians read the Bible, and apply only so much of it to their lives (it is a process), but as they grow in their understanding many come to realize that claiming ownership over their own failings is the path that the Bible teaches in abundance. Since you claim to agree with Shakyamunison which you yourself admitted, who are you to make any claims on whether or not Satan exists? And besides that little detail, your belief has nothing to do with the OP being presented in this thread.
Your first comment in and of itself had nothing to do with the OP, and is thus irrelevant here. Either answer the question that the OP asks, or continue trolling. I'm also not going to claim to know what you are, but if you are in fact an Atheist, what is it that you are trying to prove exactly? What, that you don't believe in God, or any of the teachings in the Bible? If so, good for you, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who do believe, and again that would be their rightful choice. Just like it is your right to believe in what you want to believe in. Have you ever read the Bible? Have you studied it?
Originally posted by Stoic
Many Christians read the Bible, and apply only so much of it to their lives (it is a process), but as they grow in their understanding many come to realize that claiming ownership over their own failings is the path that the Bible teaches in abundance. Since you claim to agree with Shakyamunison which you yourself admitted, who are you to make any claims on whether or not Satan exists? And besides that little detail, your belief has nothing to do with the OP being presented in this thread.Your first comment in and of itself had nothing to do with the OP, and is thus irrelevant here. Either answer the question that the OP asks, or continue trolling. I'm also not going to claim to know what you are, but if you are in fact an Atheist, what is it that you are trying to prove exactly? What, that you don't believe in God, or any of the teachings in the Bible? If so, good for you, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who do believe, and again that would be their rightful choice. Just like it is your right to believe in what you want to believe in. Have you ever read the Bible? Have you studied it?
First, my first post dealt with the concept of equality, this directly relates to the OP.
Second, I am unsure as to where I stand currently as far as which religion I follow. I have education through schooling or ministers in the majority of Christian religions. I have also studied Islam, Judaism and most of the Eastern/asian religions.
Third, the OP referenced Christians, Muslims and "religious people"
Fourth, the final question in the OP is "Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?" There is nothing there to deny me my opinion/belief. I simply did not state what my religious affiliation, if there is one, was. I cannot decide if I fit in the grouping of "religious people", the term needs to be better defined.
I do not believe in equality. It is a nice concept and ideal to pursue, but it does not truly exist with regards to the treatment of conscious entities imo.
Originally posted by Regret
First, my first post dealt with the concept of equality, this directly relates to the OP.Second, I am unsure as to where I stand currently as far as which religion I follow. I have education through schooling or ministers in the majority of Christian religions. I have also studied Islam, Judaism and most of the Eastern/asian religions.
Third, the OP referenced Christians, Muslims and "religious people"
Fourth, the final question in the OP is "Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?" There is nothing there to deny me my opinion/belief. I simply did not state what my religious affiliation, if there is one, was. I cannot decide if I fit in the grouping of "religious people", the term needs to be better defined.
I do not believe in equality. It is a nice concept and ideal to pursue, but it does not truly exist with regards to the treatment of conscious entities imo.
I stand corrected. However, Satan, and heaven come from the Bible, and the OP mainly stems from whether or not Satan should have had equal rights in Heaven, and questions the legitimacy of these rights. You may have also taken note of the word tyranny? Well, are you as a parent a tyrant to your children, or anyone else that lives in you house, when you lay down ground rules for what is in fact yours? If i tell my children that I will not permit them to walk in my house with their shoes on, bring prostitutes, drugs, and all of their friends into my house, it is in fact my choice, and my right to make these rules. If I paid for the construction of my house, built it from the ground up, and take care of all of the bills, and food among other things in my house, should my requests in my house be respected? How would that make me a tyrant? What right would my child that built nothing at all, the one that i gave everything to have the right to turn around and tell me that they want to be the head of my house? Perhaps we see things differently, but like I said in a previous post, if my child or several of my children were murderers, liars, and other horrible things, and refused to turn from their ways, I would throw them out on their duffs as well. now since we don't know to full details of what exactly went on in heaven at the time of the exile, or before the event, we aren't in any position to judge gods actions, or judge why he will never again trust or forgive the fallen. The Bible does however state that the only unforgivable sin is the sin of blasphemy, so that may be a solid starting point of understanding God's stance on the events that lead to Satan's exile. As for claiming full responsibility of ones actions, many Christians do, while many blame all or a majority of their failings on Satan. When I began my Christian walk, I rad a book early on that helped me to understand what the Bible teaches about ownership of ones willful actions. I forget the books title, but the Author's name was Verbal Bean (weird name I know but whatever). There was a saying that he wrote that caught my attention. He wrote that the best way to become a reprobate was through self justification. I agreed whole heartily. and from that point I applied it to my life. Many have yet to come upon this way of thought, which is exactly why i said that we may not be the same people that we are today, in the next 10 yrs. I have to get going. Will reply to you when I can. i mean if you would like to continue our discussion. Perhaps you will teach me something as well. Take it easy friend.
Originally posted by Bentley
Technically they come from christian/jewish tradition both of which predate the Bible for several decades at least.
Technically? Tell me what books first canonized Heaven, Hell, Satan, Angels...etc? It's so easy to go off topic isn't it? This had very little to do with the point that I was making according to the OP, but you still managed to single out one sentence. Also i would like you to explain how it came from Christian/Jewish tradition? Christianity came after the Bible had begun to be written, which was far more than a couple of decades.
Originally posted by Stoic
Technically? Tell me what books first canonized Heaven, Hell, Satan, Angels...etc? It's so easy to go off topic isn't it? This had very little to do with the point that I was making according to the OP, but you still managed to single out one sentence. Also i would like you to explain how it came from Christian/Jewish tradition? Christianity came after the Bible had begun to be written, which was far more than a couple of decades.
I did not intend to upset you with my comment. As it can be considered off topic I'll just stop arguing on that line of thought.
Have a nice day.
Originally posted by Stoic
I stand corrected. However, Satan, and heaven come from the Bible, and the OP mainly stems from whether or not Satan should have had equal rights in Heaven, and questions the legitimacy of these rights. You may have also taken note of the word tyranny? Well, are you as a parent a tyrant to your children, or anyone else that lives in you house, when you lay down ground rules for what is in fact yours? If i tell my children that I will not permit them to walk in my house with their shoes on, bring prostitutes, drugs, and all of their friends into my house, it is in fact my choice, and my right to make these rules. If I paid for the construction of my house, built it from the ground up, and take care of all of the bills, and food among other things in my house, should my requests in my house be respected? How would that make me a tyrant? What right would my child that built nothing at all, the one that i gave everything to have the right to turn around and tell me that they want to be the head of my house? Perhaps we see things differently, but like I said in a previous post, if my child or several of my children were murderers, liars, and other horrible things, and refused to turn from their ways, I would throw them out on their duffs as well. now since we don't know to full details of what exactly went on in heaven at the time of the exile, or before the event, we aren't in any position to judge gods actions, or judge why he will never again trust or forgive the fallen. The Bible does however state that the only unforgivable sin is the sin of blasphemy, so that may be a solid starting point of understanding God's stance on the events that lead to Satan's exile.
I'll continue assuming a Christian-esque paradigm. The question of tyranny comes down to the extent to which existence is God's personal property in relationship to the ownership that is God's creation. Using your head of household analogy, I have a few questions:
[list][*]At what point does a parent cross the line between acceptable control and unacceptable control?[*]At some point a child is the equal of the parent, and the remaining inequality is a ceded inequality and not a true inequality. Is there a point where this is the case with God and his creation?[*]Most Christians would answer "No" to the above. Given this, why?[/list]
I have been told by various Christians that I am going to hell. In response I often cite a positive position on the prospect due to the status of conscientious objector. I believe that, if a good man finds himself in hell, the system is unjust and it is the duty of good and honest people to stand against it.
The information that is given us with regard to the governance of Heaven in the Christian literature appears to justify a position against deity. The Christian God seems to rule in a manner that results in good people being punished based in the form of their behavior rather than the quality of their behavior. Actions that are equal with regards to a presumed scale of Good-Evil are mediated in measurement by an adherence to an underlying Christian theological frame. Thus a man who improves the world greatly, but does not hold a belief in deity, is viewed in lower regard than a man who improves the world very slightly, but holds to tenets of Christian theology that do nothing to improve the world. A position of equality would not take into account the extraneous details of the individual when measuring how good or evil their life is/was. If a ruler in our world behaved as the Christian God does, from most Christian positions, I would stand against that ruler.
Most religions tend to be cliquish. If you do not belong to their group, your life holds less value in some way. Equality exists, but you are a better person if you believe right, regardless of your actions and the result of your life. If you aren't with them, you are against them, and you will go to some place that is severely undesirable for being against them.
Originally posted by Regret
I'll continue assuming a Christian-esque paradigm. The question of tyranny comes down to the extent to which existence is God's personal property in relationship to the ownership that is God's creation. Using your head of household analogy, I have a few questions:
[list][*]At what point does a parent cross the line between acceptable control and unacceptable control?[*]At some point a child is the equal of the parent, and the remaining inequality is a ceded inequality and not a true inequality. Is there a point where this is the case with God and his creation?[*]Most Christians would answer "No" to the above. Given this, why?[/list]I have been told by various Christians that I am going to hell. In response I often cite a positive position on the prospect due to the status of conscientious objector. I believe that, if a good man finds himself in hell, the system is unjust and it is the duty of good and honest people to stand against it.
The information that is given us with regard to the governance of Heaven in the Christian literature appears to justify a position against deity. The Christian God seems to rule in a manner that results in good people being punished based in the form of their behavior rather than the quality of their behavior. Actions that are equal with regards to a presumed scale of Good-Evil are mediated in measurement by an adherence to an underlying Christian theological frame. Thus a man who improves the world greatly, but does not hold a belief in deity, is viewed in lower regard than a man who improves the world very slightly, but holds to tenets of Christian theology that do nothing to improve the world. A position of equality would not take into account the extraneous details of the individual when measuring how good or evil their life is/was. If a ruler in our world behaved as the Christian God does, from most Christian positions, I would stand against that ruler.
Most religions tend to be cliquish. If you do not belong to their group, your life holds less value in some way. Equality exists, but you are a better person if you believe right, regardless of your actions and the result of your life. If you aren't with them, you are against them, and you will go to some place that is severely undesirable for being against them.
But Christian teachings tell us that the world is evil. So, making the world a better place, under the Christian way of thinking, is a waist of time. This world will be destroyed according to the bible.
Originally posted by Regret
I'll continue assuming a Christian-esque paradigm. The question of tyranny comes down to the extent to which existence is God's personal property in relationship to the ownership that is God's creation. Using your head of household analogy, I have a few questions:
[list][*]At what point does a parent cross the line between acceptable control and unacceptable control?[*]At some point a child is the equal of the parent, and the remaining inequality is a ceded inequality and not a true inequality. Is there a point where this is the case with God and his creation?[*]Most Christians would answer "No" to the above. Given this, why?[/list]I have been told by various Christians that I am going to hell. In response I often cite a positive position on the prospect due to the status of conscientious objector. I believe that, if a good man finds himself in hell, the system is unjust and it is the duty of good and honest people to stand against it.
The information that is given us with regard to the governance of Heaven in the Christian literature appears to justify a position against deity. The Christian God seems to rule in a manner that results in good people being punished based in the form of their behavior rather than the quality of their behavior. Actions that are equal with regards to a presumed scale of Good-Evil are mediated in measurement by an adherence to an underlying Christian theological frame. Thus a man who improves the world greatly, but does not hold a belief in deity, is viewed in lower regard than a man who improves the world very slightly, but holds to tenets of Christian theology that do nothing to improve the world. A position of equality would not take into account the extraneous details of the individual when measuring how good or evil their life is/was. If a ruler in our world behaved as the Christian God does, from most Christian positions, I would stand against that ruler.
Most religions tend to be cliquish. If you do not belong to their group, your life holds less value in some way. Equality exists, but you are a better person if you believe right, regardless of your actions and the result of your life. If you aren't with them, you are against them, and you will go to some place that is severely undesirable for being against them.
It is acceptable to allow your child to know how much you care for them. It is not your responsibility to give them anything that does not belong to them, or even yourself. What about all of Lucifer's siblings? Didn't each and every one of them have the choice to ask for their equal portion as well? Why did he take it upon himself to demand anything? That's how I feel about the entire thing. What? Do you think that inviting someone into your house, mean that you intended to give them everything that you own? Lucifer wanted to rule the universe. However the universe already had a ruler, that was in their right to claim whatever it is that they created by their selves.
Tyranny? That's way too strong, because we have no way of proving that God was ever fully present with his creations. God is a spirit, and it may be that God rarely if ever took place in the actual affairs of his kingdom, but things were asked of God. There was always an answer, but sometimes that answer was no. There are several ways to look at things. God stands accused of many things, but when were the times that God was physically seen doing these things, and what did God do? Should we apply the leopard that was unable to change their spots analogy to everything else, but when it comes to God we just throw it out of the window? I'm talking about familiar spirits here. Jesus did everything that a person should do that claims to follow bible teachings. His personality, and purpose was of the very same personality or theme that the bible had taken on even before his birth. So in knowing that a leopard does not change their spots, we see how God would behave among his creations. was Jesus selfish? Evil? Tyrannical? Despotic? Envious? Justified in his perversions? Then what? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word later became flesh, and dwelt among us, but even in so doing, and even showing signs and authority, we still did not know him.
To understand all that needs to be learned in context to this subject, a person must learn of the true relationship that God had, and desired to have with his creations. Telling your child no sometimes, may have its merits after all. The bible says that wickedness was found inside of Lucifer. Perhaps this wickedness made God judge unfavorably to the idea of Lucifer's ability to run things properly. Listen the best guy for the job, should always be the one sitting at the desk.
Originally posted by Regret
I'll continue assuming a Christian-esque paradigm. The question of tyranny comes down to the extent to which existence is God's personal property in relationship to the ownership that is God's creation. Using your head of household analogy, I have a few questions:
[list][*]At what point does a parent cross the line between acceptable control and unacceptable control?[*]At some point a child is the equal of the parent, and the remaining inequality is a ceded inequality and not a true inequality. Is there a point where this is the case with God and his creation?[*]Most Christians would answer "No" to the above. Given this, why?[/list]I have been told by various Christians that I am going to hell. In response I often cite a positive position on the prospect due to the status of conscientious objector. I believe that, if a good man finds himself in hell, the system is unjust and it is the duty of good and honest people to stand against it.
The information that is given us with regard to the governance of Heaven in the Christian literature appears to justify a position against deity. The Christian God seems to rule in a manner that results in good people being punished based in the form of their behavior rather than the quality of their behavior. Actions that are equal with regards to a presumed scale of Good-Evil are mediated in measurement by an adherence to an underlying Christian theological frame. Thus a man who improves the world greatly, but does not hold a belief in deity, is viewed in lower regard than a man who improves the world very slightly, but holds to tenets of Christian theology that do nothing to improve the world. A position of equality would not take into account the extraneous details of the individual when measuring how good or evil their life is/was. If a ruler in our world behaved as the Christian God does, from most Christian positions, I would stand against that ruler.
Most religions tend to be cliquish. If you do not belong to their group, your life holds less value in some way. Equality exists, but you are a better person if you believe right, regardless of your actions and the result of your life. If you aren't with them, you are against them, and you will go to some place that is severely undesirable for being against them.
Also the bible clearly states that we are not justified by our works, but instead by our faith. This means that there is nothing that we can do to impress God. It also means that there isn't much that we can actually do to be saved. According to what the bible teaches.