SSJ Gogeta vs. Base Vegito

Started by juggerman7 pages
Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
- It is explicitly stated in the manga that the Potara have a greater effect than fusion dance and that, furthermore, they don't have a time limit.
Vegetto is stronger than Gogeta, that's a fact, and by how much it is told us by Boohan and Goku statements.

It never said the earrings created a stronger fighter. The results are greater for the reasons I already mentioned

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
- Elder Kai never remotely cared about the inferior fusion dance, everything he said was about the Potara fusion, included the "rival boost".
To say that it would apply also to regular fusion dance is thus just pure speculation.

I addressed this earlier:

Originally posted by juggerman
5. That "rivialry boost" could occur with the dance as well, but even if not, there is no indication it boosts them over the SSJ multipliers.
Originally posted by juggerman
It never said the earrings created a stronger fighter. The results are greater for the reason I already mentioned.

Here are all the statements regarding Potara in the manga:

8. Potara [#BO3#POT]
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P6.2-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin gives the Potara to Goku
Elder Kaioshin: “Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! [ ] Put the other one on Gohan’s ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion.”
Goku: “Huh! Re-really!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “Of course. And what’s more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago.”

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.6
Context: Goku asks how long Potara-based fusion lasts
Elder Kaioshin: "The Potara don't have such a weakness. It's eternal! You'll never return to normal again!"

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P1.2
Context: after Vegetto outclasses Boo
Vegetto: “…Well, don’t feel too bad. Even I’m surprised. To think that I’d be able to make this big a fool out of you.”

It's evident that Potara is superior in power.

Not once in there is it shown or stated the Patara creates a stronger fighter, just the the Potara is a superior method of fusion.

ok ok what is the point your trying to argue if you dont think vegeto can win?.......logic says otherwise so i just don understand your stance. Educate me.

There is nothing that shows Vegetto being more powerful than Gogeta. Even if we assume he gets a boost when Gogeta doesn't, there is nothing showing that boost is greater than the 50x boost Gogeta gets when going SSJ.

Base Vegetto vs Base Gogeta goes to Vegetto. Giving Gogeta SSJ while gimping Vegetto to just base is a sure win for Gogeta

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Which Boo are you referring to?
Again, gimme actual proofs.

I mean look at the transformations,

Base Goku and Vegeta made a fusion dance that put them right into Super Saijen without even trying, then one shotted Janemba.

Vegetto had to power up and make a huge deal about it and couldn't even pull a win.

Gogeta stomps

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I mean look at the transformations,

Base Goku and Vegeta made a fusion dance that put them right into Super Saijen without even trying, then one shotted Janemba.

Vegetto had to power up and make a huge deal about it and couldn't even pull a win.

Gogeta stomps

could be true but at the same time vegeto was toying with buuhan and he didnt want to kill buu because he wanted to save the other z fighters.

he was plenty powerful enough to kill buuhan in an instant if he wanted too tho

Yeah Vegetto was just playing around waiting to be absorbed

Vegetto had to try and power up to SS and it was a pretty big deal, Gogeta started off that way from the start without having to amp and transform. It was totally on another level.

I just meant about the "couldn't even pull a win" part

Yea your right, but I dont see how anyone here is saying Vegetto is stronger..when clearly he wasn't.

I agree. Nothing shows him being stronger than Gogeta except possibly a "rival boost" that was never clarified or given an exact value.

Imho: Potara fusion and fusion dance create the exact same level fighter. The only difference in the result is the timeframe.

i dont think theres a real difference in power.... the difference is more in their personalities one likes to play the other is much more serious.

honestly i think janemba and buuhan were around the same level but thats just me

Nah Buuhan would likely stomp J-Man. He was more of a Super Buu level guy

Originally posted by yungz22
i dont think theres a real difference in power.... the difference is more in their personalities one likes to play the other is much more serious.

honestly i think janemba and buuhan were around the same level but thats just me

The fact he started off in SS makes me think there is a difference, and I agree Janemba and Buu are pretty much equal but I give the edge to Janemba based on his weapon and teleportation.

Originally posted by juggerman
Nah Buuhan would likely stomp J-Man. He was more of a Super Buu level guy

I doubt Buu could hit Janemba with his teleportation and pocket hole ability, and that sword, I mean that thing was way OP. Buu would prolly win due to his regen but over all power and versatility, Janemba had it in spades.

If SSJ3 Goku could hit Janemba, Buu will have no problem

Originally posted by juggerman
Couple of things here:

1. It was SSJ2 Vegeta not Gohan.

2. SSJ3 Goku was not "on par" with Janemba. Janemba was clearly superior.

3. You have no idea if that was Gogeta's "strongest attck". It was his "ONLY" attack that we saw. Unless you have actual proof it was his strongest attack, that's a baseless claim.

4. There are many reasons the earrings can be considered "vastly superior to that silly dance" without it creating a stronger fighter:
a) The dance is more time consuming
b) The dance can be interrupted much more easily
c) The dance can be performed incorrectly resulting in a poor fighter
d) The users of the earrings don't have to have an even PL
e) The earrings don't have a time limit.

And 5. That "rivialry boost" could occur with the dance as well, but even if not, there is no indication it boosts them over the SSJ multipliers.

1. Yeah, that was a typing error, at the beginning. I meant to say SSJ2 Vegeta, not SSJ2 Gohan.

2. Um, yes, but not to the point where SSJ3 Goku had no chance against Janemba. He struggled against Janemba, and even overcame him a FEW times. He was clearly CLOSE to being as strong as Janemba. I mean, do you think that SSJ3 Goku, teamed up with SSJ2 Vegeta could have beaten him? Because it's pretty apparent that they could have, even though they could both sense how strong he was, and were still confident enough to fight him. Not to mention that even Vegeta managed to tag him several times. Goku said that he and Vegeta "together", meaning working in tandem, fighting him 2 V 1, would have had "no chance". This would put Super Buu in BASE VASTLY above the SSJ3 Goku/SSJ2 Vegeta team. To the point where they would have had "no chance" against him, so much that they wouldn't even waste the time trying. They could sense his power, just as they could against Janemba. They were clearly more worried about Super Buu than Janemba.

3. Not his only attack. He also hit Janemba with dozens of punches and kicks, before-hand. However, if he was so much stronger than Janemba, and was content with giving him a 5-second beat-down like he did, then why did he have to use an attack at all? Why not just vaporize him with a kiai, like Super Vegetto could have done to Buuhan? The only excuses Vegetto had were being over-confident in his permanent fusion, and wanting to save his family instead of killing them all, and risking them being a part of Buu forever, like the Kai's. Gogeta came in, took Janemba down, and then was done. But he had to use MUCH more effort against a WEAKER opponent, then Vegetto had to use against A MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger opponent. My point here is that Super Vegetto was more powerful compared to Buuhan, than Gogeta was compared to Janemba. And Buuhan was RIDICULOUSLY more powerful than Janemba.

Hell, if you were to rate them, even Super Buu >= Super Janemba. Meaning that if Super Gogeta were to fight Buuhan, that would mean that he would have to be stronger than Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, AND Mystic Gohan, STACKED ON TOP of Super Buu. Seeing as how he did clearly need to put in effort to beat Janemba, albeit not much, I don't see that being possible at all.

4. Your first two points ARE true(but irrelevant), but your last three are wrong.

The potara can ALSO be done incorrectly, as it almost was by Goku. He was going to have Vegeta put his earring on the wrong ear, until the Elder kai told him the right one. And not to mention, he was going to go SSJ BEFORE fusion, which the old kai implied would mean Vegetto would DIE when he lost the ki to stay SSJ.

This is another irrelevant point. The old Kai wouldn't have called the potara better, because of something that didn't matter in the first place. Goku and Vegeta DO have PL's, so... yeah.

This last point is true, but the Old kai even made a point of it. AFTER he said the potara's were better. He said something like, "They're better than that silly dance. Plus, you'll be able to stay that way.". This would mean that even if they WEREN'T permanent, they'd STILL be better than the fusion dance. And that was before he even mentioned the rival boost.

5. Elder Kai specifically said that the potara's would give a rival boost. Assuming the same would happen for the fusion dance is pure assumption, which is baseless. But you're right, the boost could have been barely anything. But the point is that Vegetto has RIDICULOUSLY better feats than Gogeta EVER did.

So, by logic, Vegetto > Gogeta. And yes, to the point where he should beat him in base, with Gogeta as a SSJ1. But I already admitted that if AT made the fight, it would probably have Vegetto and Gogeta as equals. Anime Vegetto stomps even harder, considering that his BASE form was enough to trounce, and supposedly even KILL, Buuhan.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Yeah, that was a typing error, at the beginning. I meant to say SSJ2 Vegeta, not SSJ2 Gohan.

2. Um, yes, but not to the point where SSJ3 Goku had no chance against Janemba. He struggled against Janemba, and even overcame him a FEW times. He was clearly CLOSE to being as strong as Janemba. I mean, do you think that SSJ3 Goku, teamed up with SSJ2 Vegeta could have beaten him? Because it's pretty apparent that they could have, even though they could both sense how strong he was, and were still confident enough to fight him. Not to mention that even Vegeta managed to tag him several times. Goku said that he and Vegeta "together", meaning working in tandem, fighting him 2 V 1, would have had "no chance". This would put Super Buu in BASE VASTLY above the SSJ3 Goku/SSJ2 Vegeta team. To the point where they would have had "no chance" against him, so much that they wouldn't even waste the time trying. They could sense his power, just as they could against Janemba. They were clearly more worried about Super Buu than Janemba.

3. Not his only attack. He also hit Janemba with dozens of punches and kicks, before-hand. However, if he was so much stronger than Janemba, and was content with giving him a 5-second beat-down like he did, then why did he have to use an attack at all? Why not just vaporize him with a kiai, like Super Vegetto could have done to Buuhan? The only excuses Vegetto had were being over-confident in his permanent fusion, and wanting to save his family instead of killing them all, and risking them being a part of Buu forever, like the Kai's. Gogeta came in, took Janemba down, and then was done. But he had to use MUCH more effort against a WEAKER opponent, then Vegetto had to use against A MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger opponent. My point here is that Super Vegetto was more powerful compared to Buuhan, than Gogeta was compared to Janemba. And Buuhan was RIDICULOUSLY more powerful than Janemba.

Hell, if you were to rate them, even Super Buu >= Super Janemba. Meaning that if Super Gogeta were to fight Buuhan, that would mean that he would have to be stronger than Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, AND Mystic Gohan, STACKED ON TOP of Super Buu. Seeing as how he did clearly need to put in effort to beat Janemba, albeit not much, I don't see that being possible at all.

4. Your first two points ARE true(but irrelevant), but your last three are wrong.

The potara can ALSO be done incorrectly, as it almost was by Goku. He was going to have Vegeta put his earring on the wrong ear, until the Elder kai told him the right one. And not to mention, he was going to go SSJ BEFORE fusion, which the old kai implied would mean Vegetto would DIE when he lost the ki to stay SSJ.

This is another irrelevant point. The old Kai wouldn't have called the potara better, because of something that didn't matter in the first place. Goku and Vegeta DO have PL's, so... yeah.

This last point is true, but the Old kai even made a point of it. AFTER he said the potara's were better. He said something like, "They're better than that silly dance. Plus, you'll be able to stay that way.". This would mean that even if they WEREN'T permanent, they'd STILL be better than the fusion dance. And that was before he even mentioned the rival boost.

5. Elder Kai specifically said that the potara's would give a rival boost. Assuming the same would happen for the fusion dance is pure assumption, which is baseless. But you're right, the boost could have been barely anything. But the point is that Vegetto has RIDICULOUSLY better feats than Gogeta EVER did.

So, by logic, Vegetto > Gogeta. And yes, to the point where he should beat him in base, with Gogeta as a SSJ1. But I already admitted that if AT made the fight, it would probably have Vegetto and Gogeta as equals. Anime Vegetto stomps even harder, considering that his BASE form was enough to trounce, and supposedly even KILL, Buuhan.

1. I figured as much. No biggie

2. I never said Goku was completely dwarfed, but Janemba was his superior.

3. I'm sorry, his only ki based attack. You're correct in that Gogeta had nothing holding him back like Vegetto and that Super Buu>Janemba. That's not the point I made. My point was that you claimed he used his "strongest" attack when there is no evidence that it was.

4. All my point are revelant. For all those reasons the Potara could be considered superior while not actually producing a superior warrior. It's quicker, less likely to mess up, and without a limit.

Also I never said Goku and Vegeta didn't have PL's. I said the users don't have to have EVEN PL's. Meaning one can fuse with someone much stronger/weaker unlike the dance.

5. No he said the fusion got a rival boost, not that they got a boost due to the manner of fusion.

Check out the dialog:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3154-9/dragon-ball/chapter-505.html

He said they're powerful cuz they're fused not cuz of how it happened.

So the reasons Vegetto is so powerful are clearly stated for us to see

Reason 1: Because it is fusion
Reason 2: Because this is a fusion of such powerful guys
Reason 3: Because they happen to be rivals

Not once is it mentioned that the method of the fusion is a reason for it being so powerful or a reason they got a boost

Originally posted by juggerman
Check out the dialog:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3154-9/dragon-ball/chapter-505.html

He said they're powerful cuz they're fused not cuz of how it happened.

Amazing how different that particular scanlation's line is from the VIZ quote:

(Remember, it reads right to left.) 😉