SSJ Gogeta vs. Base Vegito

Originally posted by juggerman
1. I figured as much. No biggie

2. I never said Goku was completely dwarfed, but Janemba was his superior.

3. I'm sorry, his only ki based attack. You're correct in that Gogeta had nothing holding him back like Vegetto and that Super Buu>Janemba. That's not the point I made. My point was that you claimed he used his "strongest" attack when there is no evidence that it was.

4. All my point are revelant. For all those reasons the Potara could be considered superior while not actually producing a superior warrior. It's quicker, less likely to mess up, and without a limit.

Also I never said Goku and Vegeta didn't have PL's. I said the users don't have to have EVEN PL's. Meaning one can fuse with someone much stronger/weaker unlike the dance.

5. No he said the fusion got a rival boost, not that they got a boost due to the manner of fusion.

Check out the dialog:

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3154-9/dragon-ball/chapter-505.html

He said they're powerful cuz they're fused not cuz of how it happened.

So the reasons Vegetto is so powerful are clearly stated for us to see

Reason 1: Because it is fusion
Reason 2: Because this is a fusion of such powerful guys
Reason 3: Because they happen to be rivals

Not once is it mentioned that the method of the fusion is a reason for it being so powerful or a reason they got a boost

1. Yeah, lol. My bad.

2. Alright, but I also never said that Janemba was weaker than SSJ3 Goku. I'm saying that Super Buu is MORE superior to SSJ3 Goku than Super Janemba was, meaning that Super Buu >= Super Janemba, at the very least.

3. Well... Okay, I'll give you that one. Tbh, I really see what he used as more of a purification technique, than a brute-force attack. Kind of like Spirit bomb, in that it couldn't do SIGNIFICANT damage to Frieza, but was able to KILL someone like Kid Buu, just because Kid Buu was PURE evil, like Janemba pretty much was. However, I also doubt that Gogeta could have killed Janemba if he had prolonged the fight. Janemba's greatest displayed power was his power of imitation, and evolution. That's what let him become superior to SSJ3 Goku in the first place, after he was originally thrashed by him. It would depend though, on how far he COULD evolve, but that's neither here, nor there. Anyway, my point was that it took a lot more effort for Gogeta to put Janemba down, than it would have for Vegetto to put Buuhan down, and Buuhan was MONSTROUSLY superior to Buutenks, who was MONSTROUSLY superior to Buucolo, who was MONSTROUSLY superior to Super Buu, who was MORE superior to SSJ3 Goku than Super Janemba was.

4. Well tbh, we've seen the potara fail more times than we have seen fusion fail. We've seen four total instances of the potara being performed incorrectly, like when the witch tricked the old kai, when Kibito fused with Shin, when Goku tried to fuse with Gohan, and when Goku nearly fused as a SSJ, which would have killed him. The potara's require actual, FRAGILE objects to fuse, which can be dropped, lost, destroyed, or even intercepted.

The only times we've seen the fusion dance fail, are three of the times that Trunks and Goten used it. When they became fat and skinny Gotenks, and when they were going to fuse in the ROSAT. Even in the ROSAT though, when Super Buu interrupted it by punching Trunks, all Trunks had to do was lecture him, and remind him that he was trying to power up so they could give Buu a challenge. I know that even 8 year old Trunks was intellectually leaps and bounds above Goku, but if kid Trunks could trick Buu into accepting his challenge like that, then I'm sure Vegeta could as well, making those points, as I said, irrelevant.

5. Galan got to it before me. Yeah though, you usually can't trust DBZ trans on Mangapanda. You'll have to find the Viz translations, to be accurate enough to quote.

But yeah, fusion dance does not get a rival boost. Only the Potara's.

Originally posted by juggerman
Not once in there is it shown or stated the Patara creates a stronger fighter, just the the Potara is a superior method of fusion.

No, it is clearly stated that Potara is superior, multiple times.
Look at these statements:

Elder Kaioshin: “Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! [ ] Put the other one on Gohan’s ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion.”
Goku: “Huh! Re-really!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “Of course. And what’s more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago.”

Look at the contest: it's implicit that with his statement Elder Kai is assuming that fusion will come out right, without errors; him and Goku are indeed discussing about the effect, the outcome of the fusion process, which obviously happens to be the fused being, be him Vegetto or Gogeta.
So, as it is written, ONCE they will be fused, the effect (which is the fused being, the outcome) will be greater than fusion dance. Why? Because Potara is a superior method of fusion, simple as that.
Then we have this:

Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P1.2
Context: after Vegetto outclasses Boo
Vegetto: “…Well, don’t feel too bad. Even I’m surprised. To think that I’d be able to make this big a fool out of you.”

It's Vegetto stating that he wouldn't have expected to beat to a pulp Boohan like that, as a mere Ssj, and this is when the "rival boost" comes into play.
But such rival boost doesn't have to be greater than the Ssj multiplier, it's something unnecessary: in fact, what Vegetto is saying is that, even if Elder Kai already told him about the superiority of the Potara over the fusion dance, he still expected to put up a harder fight against Boohan as a Ssj.
Contrariwise, what we have is Ssj Vegetto murking Boohan without even using his arms.
It's evident that the power chain is:

Ssj Vegetto (at Boohan) > Ssj Vegetto (expected) > fusion dance.

And the gap Vegetto actually has over what was initially expected is due to the "rival boost".
Anyway, even if Vegetto expected a harder fight, he was still referring to him battling Boohan as a Ssj, and this undoubtly proves that Potara, even without "rival boost", is way superior if compared to the fusion dance: in fact, now you have to explain me how a Metamoran Ssj Gogeta could ever have hoped to keep up with Boohan, a guy who basically is the sum of two Ssj3 fusion tier characters, especially when the Ssj kids, even pre-Rosat, lead the Ssj adults (Vegeta and Gohan) to put up a quite high effort against them during their training sessions.
Given all of that, explain how Ssj Gogeta would be > Ssj3 Gotenks when hypothetical Ssj3 Goten/Trunks would oneshot Ssj Goku or Ssj Vegeta; I already tell you that simply you can't demonstrate this, unless you speculate on the fusion dance having somehow a "rival boost" or it working different for Goku and Vegeta than for the kids. But all of that would be, like I just said, fan-speculation and nothing more.

Ssj Vegetto >> Ssj Vegetto (expected) ~= Boohan > Ssj3 Gogeta (there's a statement from Boohan himself which proves this) ~= Bootenks (Bootenks said that he would stop a fusion dance of Goku and Gohan just in case, and Gohan would have to power down in order to match Goku's level, and thus it would be Metamoran Gokhan = Gogeta) > Chou Gohan > Ssj3 Gotenks ~= Super Boo > Ssj2 Gogeta > Ssj2 Gotenks > Ssj Gogeta > Ssj Gotenks post.

That's the power chain, with the gap between Gogeta and Gotenks being identical to the gap between Goku/Vegeta and Goten.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I mean look at the transformations,

Base Goku and Vegeta made a fusion dance that put them right into Super Saijen without even trying, then one shotted Janemba.

Vegetto had to power up and make a huge deal about it and couldn't even pull a win.

Gogeta stomps

I already told you it's pointless to compare a movie to the manga, since they are totally different timelines, but since you insist in doing this, here we go: the movie Fusion Reborn came out at the half of the Boo saga, when Goku just came back to heaven and the boys just learnt the fusion.
At the time, Super Boo still didn't exist, the boys didn't enter the Rosat yet, and Goku just fought as a Ssj3 against Fat Boo, so, when Ssj3 Goku told Fat Janemba he was the second person forcing him to reach Ssj3, he was referring to Fat Boo as the first person.
Then, against Super Janemba, Ssj3 Goku was able to land several hits before losing the fight, when, in the manga, Ssj3 Goku wouldn't even have the chance of seeing Super Boo before dropping dead (and he himself admits it), since we have:

Ssj3 Gotenks ~= Super Boo >> Ssj Gotenks post >> Ssj3 Gotenks pre >= Ssj3 Goku > Fat Boo

Then, Ssj Gogeta appears and defeats Super Janemba. Wow, bravo, how impressive. 😆
Going by what the manga outright states even Ssj Gotenks post Rosat would make such a fool out of a weakling like Super Janemba, while Ssj3 Gotenks would kill Janemba and Ssj Gogeta at the same time. 😂
Here, that's what you have since you insisted to compare Fusion Reborn to the manga.
Then, the Boo saga went on, the power of the characters escalated quickly, people like Super Boo, Ssj3 Gotenks or Chou Gohan appeared, all guys capable to one-shot Ssj Gogeta, and since the latter has already been used by Toei in the movie, AT (as he himself stated) came out with a better and superior fusion, which happens to be Vegetto.
And, as SSJGGogeta stated, if you go by the anime it's even worse for the poor Gogeta, since Vegetto was nearly even with Boohan with his base form. 😆
Vegetto grabs Gogeta and tears him in half Sentry-style.

PS: if you say that Vegetto couldn't pull a win against Boohan I think you really need to re-read the manga: Vegetto was the only thing in the saga, along with the Genkidama, capable of utmost annihilate Boo at an atomic level, with the difference that the Genkidama did it against a version of Boo (Kid Boo) which is piss weak compared to Boohan, the absolute strongest version of Boo which Vegetto could casually, literally atomize with a wave of his hand.

Originally posted by Galan007
Amazing how different that particular scanlation's line is from the VIZ quote:

(Remember, it reads right to left.) 😉

I can't see it on my work computer

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Yeah, lol. My bad.

2. Alright, but I also never said that Janemba was weaker than SSJ3 Goku. I'm saying that Super Buu is MORE superior to SSJ3 Goku than Super Janemba was, meaning that Super Buu >= Super Janemba, at the very least.

3. Well... Okay, I'll give you that one. Tbh, I really see what he used as more of a purification technique, than a brute-force attack. Kind of like Spirit bomb, in that it couldn't do SIGNIFICANT damage to Frieza, but was able to KILL someone like Kid Buu, just because Kid Buu was PURE evil, like Janemba pretty much was. However, I also doubt that Gogeta could have killed Janemba if he had prolonged the fight. Janemba's greatest displayed power was his power of imitation, and evolution. That's what let him become superior to SSJ3 Goku in the first place, after he was originally thrashed by him. It would depend though, on how far he COULD evolve, but that's neither here, nor there. Anyway, my point was that it took a lot more effort for Gogeta to put Janemba down, than it would have for Vegetto to put Buuhan down, and Buuhan was MONSTROUSLY superior to Buutenks, who was MONSTROUSLY superior to Buucolo, who was MONSTROUSLY superior to Super Buu, who was MORE superior to SSJ3 Goku than Super Janemba was.

4. Well tbh, we've seen the potara fail more times than we have seen fusion fail. We've seen four total instances of the potara being performed incorrectly, like when the witch tricked the old kai, when Kibito fused with Shin, when Goku tried to fuse with Gohan, and when Goku nearly fused as a SSJ, which would have killed him. The potara's require actual, FRAGILE objects to fuse, which can be dropped, lost, destroyed, or even intercepted.

The only times we've seen the fusion dance fail, are three of the times that Trunks and Goten used it. When they became fat and skinny Gotenks, and when they were going to fuse in the ROSAT. Even in the ROSAT though, when Super Buu interrupted it by punching Trunks, all Trunks had to do was lecture him, and remind him that he was trying to power up so they could give Buu a challenge. I know that even 8 year old Trunks was intellectually leaps and bounds above Goku, but if kid Trunks could trick Buu into accepting his challenge like that, then I'm sure Vegeta could as well, making those points, as I said, irrelevant.

5. Galan got to it before me. Yeah though, you usually can't trust DBZ trans on Mangapanda. You'll have to find the Viz translations, to be accurate enough to quote.

But yeah, fusion dance does not get a rival boost. Only the Potara's.

2. Agreed

3. Spirit bomb against Buu was much MUCH more powerful. The one on Namek only used the energy from the planst and animals still alive, which were very few. But this is kinda off topic

4. The potaras worked perfectly with the old lady and the Kai. But how can you honestly believe the dance is easier to perfect than just putting on earrings? You forget the kids had to practice a lot before actually trying it and they still failed. Goku told Vegeta once and boom, done.

5. I can't see the picture posted. Can you tell me what it says exactly?

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
1. No, it is clearly stated that Potara is superior, multiple times.
Look at these statements:

Elder Kaioshin: “Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! [ ] Put the other one on Gohan’s ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion.”
Goku: “Huh! Re-really!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “Of course. And what’s more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago.”

Look at the contest: it's implicit that with his statement Elder Kai is assuming that fusion will come out right, without errors; him and Goku are indeed discussing about the effect, the outcome of the fusion process, which obviously happens to be the fused being, be him Vegetto or Gogeta.
So, as it is written, ONCE they will be fused, the effect (which is the fused being, the outcome) will be greater than fusion dance. Why? Because Potara is a superior method of fusion, simple as that.

2.Then we have this:

Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P1.2
Context: after Vegetto outclasses Boo
Vegetto: “…Well, don’t feel too bad. Even I’m surprised. To think that I’d be able to make this big a fool out of you.”

It's Vegetto stating that he wouldn't have expected to beat to a pulp Boohan like that, as a mere Ssj, and this is when the "rival boost" comes into play.
But such rival boost doesn't have to be greater than the Ssj multiplier, it's something unnecessary: in fact, what Vegetto is saying is that, even if Elder Kai already told him about the superiority of the Potara over the fusion dance, he still expected to put up a harder fight against Boohan as a Ssj.
Contrariwise, what we have is Ssj Vegetto murking Boohan without even using his arms.
It's evident that the power chain is:

Ssj Vegetto (at Boohan) > Ssj Vegetto (expected) > fusion dance.

And the gap Vegetto actually has over what was initially expected is due to the "rival boost".
Anyway, even if Vegetto expected a harder fight, he was still referring to him battling Boohan as a Ssj, and this undoubtly proves that Potara, even without "rival boost", is way superior if compared to the fusion dance: in fact, now you have to explain me how a Metamoran Ssj Gogeta could ever have hoped to keep up with Boohan, a guy who basically is the sum of two Ssj3 fusion tier characters, especially when the Ssj kids, even pre-Rosat, lead the Ssj adults (Vegeta and Gohan) to put up a quite high effort against them during their training sessions.
Given all of that, explain how Ssj Gogeta would be > Ssj3 Gotenks when hypothetical Ssj3 Goten/Trunks would oneshot Ssj Goku or Ssj Vegeta; I already tell you that simply you can't demonstrate this, unless you speculate on the fusion dance having somehow a "rival boost" or it working different for Goku and Vegeta than for the kids. But all of that would be, like I just said, fan-speculation and nothing more.

Ssj Vegetto >> Ssj Vegetto (expected) ~= Boohan > Ssj3 Gogeta (there's a statement from Boohan himself which proves this) ~= Bootenks (Bootenks said that he would stop a fusion dance of Goku and Gohan just in case, and Gohan would have to power down in order to match Goku's level, and thus it would be Metamoran Gokhan = Gogeta) > Chou Gohan > Ssj3 Gotenks ~= Super Boo > Ssj2 Gogeta > Ssj2 Gotenks > Ssj Gogeta > Ssj Gotenks post.

That's the power chain, with the gap between Gogeta and Gotenks being identical to the gap between Goku/Vegeta and Goten.

1. The effect is greater because it has no time limit.

2. Goku was surprised at the power the kids achieved as a fusion. Him being surprised at Vegetto’s power doesn’t mean Vegetto is any more powerful than a normal fusion. What statement from Buuhan proves SSJ Vegetto is superior to SSJ3 Gogeta?

Originally posted by juggerman
2. Agreed

3. Spirit bomb against Buu was much MUCH more powerful. The one on Namek only used the energy from the planst and animals still alive, which were very few. But this is kinda off topic

4. The potaras worked perfectly with the old lady and the Kai. But how can you honestly believe the dance is easier to perfect than just putting on earrings? You forget the kids had to practice a lot before actually trying it and they still failed. Goku told Vegeta once and boom, done.

5. I can't see the picture posted. Can you tell me what it says exactly?

2. Good, lol. 👆 Glad to see someone on here, who can actually debate RATIONALLY, instead of just being a child, lol. Like SOME people... 😖hifty: (You know who you are)

3. No, the spirit bomb against Frieza was made by all the living things in the solar system, at that point, including the THREE stars surrounding the planet. That's why the spirit bomb was sooo massive against Frieza. King Kai said it would be hundreds of times stronger on Earth, than on his planet, since the Earth's sun was so much bigger than his planets. And Namek had THREE suns, lol. And the Spirit bomb against Buu didn't have energy from every living thing in the universe, just all those on Earth, the check-in station, and... Yeah, that's it.

4. I'm not saying that the fusion dance is easier to perfect, lol. I'm saying that there are just as many chances for the Potara's to backfire, as there are for the fusion dance. Yes, the fusion between the old lady, and the kai worked, but it was a perfect instance of it BACK-FIRING. It actually made him WEAKER, because it made him an old man for all eternity, lol. That's why Goku didn't want to fuse with Hercule. It's VERY easy for the fusion to make you weaker, with the potara's, since your power levels don't have to be equal. And also, Goku DID try it with Gohan, remember? And the dumb-ass, who can move FTL by farting too hard, and fight at that speed, MISSED it, lol, and ended up getting absorbed, and making Buu a hundred times stronger.

5. Sure.

Basically, Kibito-shin is excited, and he exclaims, "He's incredible!!! Boo is helpless!!! I didn't know the Potara was so powerful!!!", then Elder Kai nonchalantly says, "Dolt. Those two have the power. Two of the greatest masters in the worlds of the living AND the dead. And it doesn't hurt, that they live to outdo each other."

So pretty much, they get a rival bonus, because they constantly one-up themselves, and their fusion is supposedly quite a bit more powerful than the fusion dance, going by Kibito-shin's shock.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
2. Good, lol. 👆 Glad to see someone on here, who can actually debate RATIONALLY, instead of just being a child, lol. Like SOME people... 😖hifty: (You know who you are)

Why are you always crying like a child and begging for my attention. When you are wrong, I correct you, like a good father should.

Originally posted by juggerman
1. The effect is greater because it has no time limit.

2. Goku was surprised at the power the kids achieved as a fusion. Him being surprised at Vegetto’s power doesn’t mean Vegetto is any more powerful than a normal fusion. What statement from Buuhan proves SSJ Vegetto is superior to SSJ3 Gogeta?

1. If that's what he meant, then why did he bring up it being permanent, later, as a negative?

2. No, Goku was surprised that they managed to go SSJ3. In fact, when they initially fused, he even voiced how disappointed he was, in how weak they were. That's why the ended up needing to go into the ROSAT in the first place, lol.

And no, Goku had seen fusion many times, he would have definitely been able to assume how strong they would be as a metamoran fusion. But he was shocked by how strong they were, meaning that the rivals boost was huge, since he'd actually already seen the potara fusion once, with Supreme kai, and Kibito.

Yes though, I would also like to know what statement puts Buuhan above SSJ3 Gogeta. 😬 If that's true, there's no need for this thread in the first place.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Why are you always crying like a child and begging for my attention. When you are wrong, I correct you, like a good father should.

http://www.quickmeme.com/p/3vsf82

lol, you've been embarrassed here, time and time again. How many times is it gonna take, before you realize that you should just go back to licking windows on the short bus?? Along with Yungz/Chasedown, and brem. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if you were ALL the same loser-idiot, lol. 😆

Originally posted by juggerman
1. The effect is greater because it has no time limit.

2. Goku was surprised at the power the kids achieved as a fusion. Him being surprised at Vegetto’s power doesn’t mean Vegetto is any more powerful than a normal fusion. What statement from Buuhan proves SSJ Vegetto is superior to SSJ3 Gogeta?

1) No, it is implied that the outcome is greater, and that's because Potara is a superior method of fusion.
Indeed, the fact that Potara doesn't have a time limit is reported afterwards by Elder Kai, as a different and separate thing:

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.6
Context: Goku asks how long Potara-based fusion lasts
Elder Kaioshin: "The Potara don't have such a weakness. It's eternal! You'll never return to normal again!"

2) Goku was surprised at the power of Gotenks after the kids reached Ssj3, because he obviously didn't expect them firstly to train in the Rosat (against Fat Boo in fact there was no need to) and, secondly, that they could achieve a form so powerful as kids (also, in fact, a form which took Goku himself years of training).
However, Goku was not suprised at the power of Ssj Gotenks pre Rosat, because he himself told Piccolo that the fusion of the kids would have been stronger even than his Ssj3 form, and, because he knew perfectly how fusion works, he could have exactly gauged how strong the fused kids would have been (and, in fact, he was right: Ssj Gotenks pre could have beaten Fat Boo).
Then, despite knowing everything about Metamoran fusion, and despite obviously knowing exaclty how strong he and Vegeta were, he (Vegetto) was still surprised at how strong his Ssj form was: this fact alone tells that Potara > Metamoran fusion.
But there is more: indeed, Vegetto was so surprised of his power even if he already knew (thanks to Old Kai) that Potara is superior to fusion dance, and that's because Goku and Vegeta are masters and also rivals; this thus tells us that it's Vegetto (actual at Goku and Vegeta) > Vegetto (expected Potara outcome) > fusion dance (about which Goku knew everything).
Regardin Boohan's statement, here it is:

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P9.2
Context: as Goku heads to Vegeta with the Potara
Boo: “Now there’s another human with great power! But naturally he’s no match for me, even if they merged!”

Remember that Boohan had the kids', Gohan's and Piccolo's minds, so he knew everything about how Metamoran fusion works, he knew everything about the Ssj transformations and how powerful they are (included obviously Ssj3) and, finally, he knew everything about Goku's power; however, clearly he couldn't have known nothing about Potara's very existence, so this statement, pretty much one more time, confirms the clear superiority of Potara fusion over Metamoran dance.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
http://www.quickmeme.com/p/3vsf82

lol, you've been embarrassed here, time and time again. How many times is it gonna take, before you realize that you should just go back to licking windows on the short bus?? Along with Yungz/Chasedown, and brem. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if you were ALL the same loser-idiot, lol. 😆

Why are you so angry inside that you want to call names? I feel you and I are close to a break through here, because I agree with some of what you are saying in the other thread, And I agree with you about combat super speed stuff in the MVF.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Why are you so angry inside that you want to call names? I feel you and I are close to a break through here, because I agree with some of what you are saying in the other thread, And I agree with you about combat super speed stuff in the MVF.

Apples and oranges, pal.

I'm not angry at you, I'm frustrated that you can't accept anything, other than your own, incorrect, illogical view of THIS particular series. I've never argued with you about Superman or anything other than Anime, but I wouldn't want to, considering you are so biased when it comes to anime. I can't imagine how you are, when arguing about comics.

The only debate style I've seen you use, is dodging the topic after you make ridiculous, untrue, bogus, and biased comments, and then throw childish insults at the people proving you wrong. That's not a debate, that's you being a baby. 👆

And you know what, I don't want to stoke the flames here, but this is what I, and everyone else on here(save the idiots that you mistakenly associate yourself with), see WHENEVER you post.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Apples and oranges, pal.

I'm not angry at you, I'm frustrated that you can't accept anything, other than your own, incorrect, illogical view of THIS particular series. I've never argued with you about Superman or anything other than Anime, but I wouldn't want to, considering you are so biased when it comes to anime. I can't imagine how you are, when arguing about comics.

The only debate style I've seen you use, is dodging the topic after you make ridiculous, untrue, bogus, and biased comments, and then throw childish insults at the people proving you wrong. That's not a debate, that's you being a baby. 👆

And you know what, I don't want to stoke the flames here, but this is what I, and everyone else on here(save the idiots that you mistakenly associate yourself with), see WHENEVER you post.

Its not just me who has said you have been wrong, its been Galan, Jugs, Yungz, Brem and chase. Call us idiots, but just because we don't agree with you doesn't make us that. You act like your the authority on DBZ around here, its a little crazy.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
2. Good, lol. 👆 Glad to see someone on here, who can actually debate RATIONALLY, instead of just being a child, lol. Like SOME people... 😖hifty: (You know who you are)

3. No, the spirit bomb against Frieza was made by all the living things in the solar system, at that point, including the THREE stars surrounding the planet. That's why the spirit bomb was sooo massive against Frieza. King Kai said it would be hundreds of times stronger on Earth, than on his planet, since the Earth's sun was so much bigger than his planets. And Namek had THREE suns, lol. And the Spirit bomb against Buu didn't have energy from every living thing in the universe, just all those on Earth, the check-in station, and... Yeah, that's it.

4. I'm not saying that the fusion dance is easier to perfect, lol. I'm saying that there are just as many chances for the Potara's to backfire, as there are for the fusion dance. Yes, the fusion between the old lady, and the kai worked, but it was a perfect instance of it BACK-FIRING. It actually made him WEAKER, because it made him an old man for all eternity, lol. That's why Goku didn't want to fuse with Hercule. It's VERY easy for the fusion to make you weaker, with the potara's, since your power levels don't have to be equal. And also, Goku DID try it with Gohan, remember? And the dumb-ass, who can move FTL by farting too hard, and fight at that speed, MISSED it, lol, and ended up getting absorbed, and making Buu a hundred times stronger.

5. Sure.

Basically, Kibito-shin is excited, and he exclaims, "He's incredible!!! Boo is helpless!!! I didn't know the Potara was so powerful!!!", then Elder Kai nonchalantly says, "Dolt. [B]Those two have the power. Two of the greatest masters in the worlds of the living AND the dead. And it doesn't hurt, that they live to outdo each other."

So pretty much, they get a rival bonus, because they constantly one-up themselves, and their fusion is supposedly quite a bit more powerful than the fusion dance, going by Kibito-shin's shock. [/B]

3. Wow I completely forgot about the Bomb using other planets. Well that settles it, Frieza>>>>>Kid Buu

4. I agree you can mess up the earrings, but in no way can it be as difficult as the dance. Again the kids had to practice for HOURS and still botched it. Plus it can easily be interrupted as you pointed out. Earrings, while not without a downside, are MUCH easier to use and much less likely to fudge up. I think we can agree on that.

5. I got to read it when I got home last night but thanks for your help anyway. You're a class act! 👆

So here's what the scan tell us: Shin exclaims that he never knew the Potaras could produce such power. But the Old Kai calls him a "dolt" or dummy(meaning he's wrong). He says they are so powerful because Goku and Vegeta are uber themselves, plus being rivals, they are even stronger.

He clearly is saying the Potaras are not the reason, but Goku and Vegeta's power and rivalry are why Vegetto is so strong. He basically said right there what I've been saying all along.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
1) No, it is implied that the outcome is greater, and that's because Potara is a superior method of fusion.
Indeed, the fact that Potara doesn't have a time limit is reported afterwards by Elder Kai, as a different and separate thing:

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.6
Context: Goku asks how long Potara-based fusion lasts
Elder Kaioshin: "The Potara don't have such a weakness. It's eternal! You'll never return to normal again!"

2) Goku was surprised at the power of Gotenks after the kids reached Ssj3, because he obviously didn't expect them firstly to train in the Rosat (against Fat Boo in fact there was no need to) and, secondly, that they could achieve a form so powerful as kids (also, in fact, a form which took Goku himself years of training).
However, Goku was not suprised at the power of Ssj Gotenks pre Rosat, because he himself told Piccolo that the fusion of the kids would have been stronger even than his Ssj3 form, and, because he knew perfectly how fusion works, he could have exactly gauged how strong the fused kids would have been (and, in fact, he was right: Ssj Gotenks pre could have beaten Fat Boo).
Then, despite knowing everything about Metamoran fusion, and despite obviously knowing exaclty how strong he and Vegeta were, he (Vegetto) was still surprised at how strong his Ssj form was: this fact alone tells that Potara > Metamoran fusion.
But there is more: indeed, Vegetto was so surprised of his power even if he already knew (thanks to Old Kai) that Potara is superior to fusion dance, and that's because Goku and Vegeta are masters and also rivals; this thus tells us that it's Vegetto (actual at Goku and Vegeta) > Vegetto (expected Potara outcome) > fusion dance (about which Goku knew everything).
Regardin Boohan's statement, here it is:

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P9.2
Context: as Goku heads to Vegeta with the Potara
Boo: “Now there’s another human with great power! But naturally he’s no match for me, even if they merged!”

Remember that Boohan had the kids', Gohan's and Piccolo's minds, so he knew everything about how Metamoran fusion works, he knew everything about the Ssj transformations and how powerful they are (included obviously Ssj3) and, finally, he knew everything about Goku's power; however, clearly he couldn't have known nothing about Potara's very existence, so this statement, pretty much one more time, confirms the clear superiority of Potara fusion over Metamoran dance.

1. It's reported afterwards because Goku asked about it specifically. The old Kai could have been referencing it all along as a reason it was superior. He never broke down why it was superior so its likely it was a reason for the get go

2. You make a very good point but I'm not quite sure I can buy into it since it's all really circumstantial evidence you have. Let me read it again before I say any more

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yes. [B]I SAID VEGETTO WINS. Because he would, in cannon. In the anime, the only reason Gogeta would win is because of dubbing errors. 👆

Vegetto wins SOLIDLY in base, because not ONLY were the potara "vastly superior to that silly dance", as per ELDER KAI'S OWN WORDS, but Vegetto ALSO got ANOTHER boost, from Goku and Vegeta being rivals. To the point where SSJ1 Vegetto COULD HAVE KILLED BUUHAN WITH A KIAI. Which is JUST A WAVE. Literally. 👆

SSJ3 Goku TEAMED UP with SSJ2 Gohan, WOULD HAVE HAD NO CHANCE AGAINST REGULAR SUPER BUU. This was stated BY GOKU HIMSELF. SSJ3 Goku fought on par with Super Janemba. Super Gogeta beat Super Janemba pretty handily, but didn't take him out with ANYTHING LESS than his strongest attack. Meaning that Super Gogeta wasn't MUCH stronger than SSJ3 Goku, even though he definitely was stronger. SSJ1 Vegetto was strong enough to kill an enemy that was FOUR SSJ'S ABOVE someone that SSJ3 Goku AND SSJ2 Vegeta teamed up, would have had no chance against... WITH A WAVE. SSJ1 Vegetto >>>>> Buuhan >>> Buutenks >>> Buucolo >> Super Buu >> SSJ3 Goku/SSJ2 Vegeta teamed up >>> SSJ3 Goku.

Super Janemba > SSJ3 Goku.

Do you not understand this? Vegetto in BASE FORM would have EATEN Super Janemba. Probably as badly as Super Vegetto would have stomped Buuhan. Meaning that BASE Vegetto would have DEFINITELY been able to put Super Gogeta down, especially considering that base Vegetto is permanent, and Super Gogeta stays fused for less than 30 minutes. 👆 [/B]

👆

Originally posted by juggerman
3. Wow I completely forgot about the Bomb using other planets. Well that settles it, Frieza>>>>>Kid Buu

4. I agree you can mess up the earrings, but in no way can it be as difficult as the dance. Again the kids had to practice for HOURS and still botched it. Plus it can easily be interrupted as you pointed out. Earrings, while not without a downside, are MUCH easier to use and much less likely to fudge up. I think we can agree on that.

5. I got to read it when I got home last night but thanks for your help anyway. You're a class act! 👆

So here's what the scan tell us: Shin exclaims that he never knew the Potaras could produce such power. But the Old Kai calls him a "dolt" or dummy(meaning he's wrong). He says they are so powerful because Goku and Vegeta are uber themselves, plus being rivals, they are even stronger.

He clearly is saying the Potaras are not the reason, but Goku and Vegeta's power and rivalry are why Vegetto is so strong. He basically said right there what I've been saying all along.

3. lol, you would think so, right? But again, it's just because of the pure nature of the spirit bomb. Which is why Goku even laughed at Vegeta when he suggested a spirit bomb. In retrospect, the spirit bomb is actually a very weak attack, but is stronger, the more evil that an opponent is. For example, while someone like Darkseid is able to tank things Goku couldn't, I could see a spirit bomb being the PERFECT attack to put him down, since he IS pure evil, another pure evil being, like Kid Buu, was completely helpless against it, regardless of him being HUNDREDS of times stronger than SSJ1 Goku.

4. Okay, I can agree to what you're saying. For example, if I personally tried to do the dance, and could somehow perform it, there would be almost NO chance of me doing it perfectly. However, Goten and Trunks are MUCH more skilled, much faster, and much more capable of performing the dance than I, or really any real life person is. Which makes it EASIER for them to do the dance, then it would be for say Trunks to throw a potara to Goten, and for them to use them. Because the potara's use physical objects to fuse, it's EASY to stop the fusion, by destroying the potara's, or simply from one of the party to be air-headed, like Goten is. And if he missed it, then he likely wouldn't find it again, in time to fuse, before the person he needed to fuse against, attacked. So yes, it is obviously easier to screw up the dance, but my point is that that isn't a factor, since these characters perform HUNDREDS of times more complex maneuvers IN THEIR SLEEP. Which is why Piccolo mimicked it perfectly, WHILE Goku was doing it. The FIRST time.

5. Oh, thanks, lol 😄

But I think you might be misinterpreting the scan a bit.

Let me explain.

Kibitoshin was SHOCKED at how strong Vegetto was, even being FULLY aware of NOT ONLY how strong the metamoran fusion dance was, but ALSO the potara's. After all, he IS a potara fusion himself, lol. What this goes to show is that Vegetto is STRONGER than he should have been, even WITH the potara's. Old Kai explains this by mentioning the rivals boost. So basically, BECAUSE of the rivals boost, Vegetto was able to dominate Buuhan, which SHOCKED Kibitoshin. What this implies is that Kibitoshin expected Vegetto to have a hard time with the fight, or at least more difficulty. So, what this scene is saying, is that Vegetto is STRONGER than not only the metamoran fusion of Goku and Vegeta, but ALSO the theoretical potara fusion of the two, WITHOUT the rivals bonus. This means that AT LEAST Super Vegetto > Super Gogeta. This is supporting evidence, to the OTHER claim I brought up.

The other claim being that Buuhan > Super Gogeta. The reason for this is that a theoretical SSJ3 Goten or Trunks would ONE-shot SSJ1 Goku or Vegeta, given that they DID surprise them with their strength, and even manage to trade blows, as SSJ1's. So, SSJ3 Gotenks would be VASTLY capable of ONE-SHOTTING SSJ Gogeta, since the fusion is not only the SAME, but Goten and Trunks are MASTERS of the fusion dance, whereas Goku and Vegeta are not. Even Super Buu in BASE was around equal to SSJ3 Gotenks, which means that Super Buu base > Super Gogeta. Now, we then have Super Vegetto, who DOMINATED BuuHAN. Given this fact, and the fact that base Vegetto LIKELY would have been more than capable of beating Super Buu, we can determine that NOT ONLY is Super Vegetto >>>>>>>>> Super Gogeta, but it's also VERY possible that Base Vegetto is stronger than Super Gogeta. 👆

Hope that clears things up. 😄

Wow, I'm used to thrashing the sad troglodytes on this forum, but this is actually turning out to be a pretty pleasant debate.

clapping

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Wow, I'm used to thrashing the sad troglodytes on this forum, but this is actually turning out to be a pretty pleasant debate.

clapping

I thought you were the troglodyte. 😆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
3. lol, you would think so, right? But again, it's just because of the pure nature of the spirit bomb. Which is why Goku even laughed at Vegeta when he suggested a spirit bomb. In retrospect, the spirit bomb is actually a very weak attack, but is stronger, the more evil that an opponent is. For example, while someone like Darkseid is able to tank things Goku couldn't, I could see a spirit bomb being the PERFECT attack to put him down, since he IS pure evil, another pure evil being, like Kid Buu, was completely helpless against it, regardless of him being HUNDREDS of times stronger than SSJ1 Goku.

4. Okay, I can agree to what you're saying. For example, if I personally tried to do the dance, and could somehow perform it, there would be almost NO chance of me doing it perfectly. However, Goten and Trunks are MUCH more skilled, much faster, and much more capable of performing the dance than I, or really any real life person is. Which makes it EASIER for them to do the dance, then it would be for say Trunks to throw a potara to Goten, and for them to use them. Because the potara's use physical objects to fuse, it's EASY to stop the fusion, by destroying the potara's, or simply from one of the party to be air-headed, like Goten is. And if he missed it, then he likely wouldn't find it again, in time to fuse, before the person he needed to fuse against, attacked. So yes, it is obviously easier to screw up the dance, but my point is that that isn't a factor, since these characters perform HUNDREDS of times more complex maneuvers IN THEIR SLEEP. Which is why Piccolo mimicked it perfectly, WHILE Goku was doing it. The FIRST time.

5. Oh, thanks, lol 😄

But I think you might be misinterpreting the scan a bit.

Let me explain.

Kibitoshin was SHOCKED at how strong Vegetto was, even being FULLY aware of NOT ONLY how strong the metamoran fusion dance was, but ALSO the potara's. After all, he IS a potara fusion himself, lol. What this goes to show is that Vegetto is STRONGER than he should have been, even WITH the potara's. Old Kai explains this by mentioning the rivals boost. So basically, BECAUSE of the rivals boost, Vegetto was able to dominate Buuhan, which SHOCKED Kibitoshin. What this implies is that Kibitoshin expected Vegetto to have a hard time with the fight, or at least more difficulty. So, what this scene is saying, is that Vegetto is STRONGER than not only the metamoran fusion of Goku and Vegeta, but ALSO the theoretical potara fusion of the two, WITHOUT the rivals bonus. This means that AT LEAST Super Vegetto > Super Gogeta. This is supporting evidence, to the OTHER claim I brought up.

The other claim being that Buuhan > Super Gogeta. The reason for this is that a theoretical SSJ3 Goten or Trunks would ONE-shot SSJ1 Goku or Vegeta, given that they DID surprise them with their strength, and even manage to trade blows, as SSJ1's. So, SSJ3 Gotenks would be VASTLY capable of ONE-SHOTTING SSJ Gogeta, since the fusion is not only the SAME, but Goten and Trunks are MASTERS of the fusion dance, whereas Goku and Vegeta are not. Even Super Buu in BASE was around equal to SSJ3 Gotenks, which means that Super Buu base > Super Gogeta. Now, we then have Super Vegetto, who DOMINATED BuuHAN. Given this fact, and the fact that base Vegetto LIKELY would have been more than capable of beating Super Buu, we can determine that NOT ONLY is Super Vegetto >>>>>>>>> Super Gogeta, but it's also VERY possible that Base Vegetto is stronger than Super Gogeta. 👆

Hope that clears things up. 😄

3. Good point. I'll accept that

4. I do see your point and you seem to see mine as well. Safe to say we can put this one to bed.

5. You make a good point but it's hard for me to accept. It just ****ing bothers me for some reason. IDK what it is but it's hard to wrap my head around Vegetto being so different from Gogeta. Maybe I'm just holding on to a belief I've had for some reason. Even now every arguement I think of feels like straw grasping. Dammit! 😠