Speed Rankings

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Ok here is was calculated at
http://www.wired.com/2014/06/whos-faster-flash-or-quicksilver/
9151 mph..

So we can assume it takes Quicksilver 9151mph to get the time slow affect?

Since MoS was easily moving that speed via flying, we could say that he can move at the same speed and get that affect?

It doesn't work that way. Speed via flying does not create a "slowdown effect" like Quicksilver's. It has to be shown/demonstrated that they have the ability. Essentially:

Time didn't slow because QS was running fast.

Time was slow because he percieves things at that speed AND the fact he is fast is separate.

As for throwing superstrong punches. We will need to follow the Hulk rule here. The guy was throwing punches that caused shockwaves felt blocks away with his punches. Yet we do not assume he has superspeed. Basically, powerpunches from superstrong characters alludes to some form of speed but it does not quantify it.

The link you posted had the best method for determining speed. Visible actions/frame, distance relative to surroundings/frame, speed relative to quantifiable objects in motion (bullet vs character for example) are the best indicators as they are without a doubt easily quantifiable.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
It doesn't work that way. Speed via flying does not create a "slowdown effect" like Quicksilver's. It has to be shown/demonstrated that they have the ability. Essentially:

Time didn't slow because QS was running fast.

Time was slow because he percieves things at that speed AND the fact he is fast is separate.

As for throwing superstrong punches. We will need to follow the Hulk rule here. The guy was throwing punches that caused shockwaves felt blocks away with his punches. Yet we do not assume he has superspeed. Basically, powerpunches from superstrong characters alludes to some form of speed but it does not quantify it.

The link you posted had the best method for determining speed. Visible actions/frame, distance relative to surroundings/frame, speed relative to quantifiable objects in motion (bullet vs character for example) are the best indicators as they are without a doubt easily quantifiable.

Look, if you want to go around comparing combat speed to travel speed, then just look at a series like DBZ. The DBZ characters around the Saiyan saga were incapable of traveling past a couple hundred times the speed of sound, when flying in a straight line. However, when kicking themselves off of a single, high-energy step, even Dragon Ball Kid Goku outran light as it was expanding.

My point here is that just since Superman uses his speed differently, doesn't mean you can change what you call it, or even dismiss it. Don't forget that with Superman, his flight speed IS his combat speed, as 90% of the fight with Zod took place in the air, blasting each other miles away at a time.

Speed is speed. Now reaction time is a little different, but still doesn't matter if you can't back it up with your physical speed. That's day one Naruto stuff, bro. 😬

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Look, if you want to go around comparing combat speed to travel speed, then just look at a series like DBZ. The DBZ characters around the Saiyan saga were incapable of traveling past a couple hundred times the speed of sound, when flying in a straight line. However, when kicking themselves off of a single, high-energy step, even Dragon Ball Kid Goku outran light as it was expanding.

My point here is that just since Superman uses his speed differently, doesn't mean you can change what you call it, or even dismiss it. Don't forget that with Superman, his flight speed IS his combat speed, as 90% of the fight with Zod took place in the air, blasting each other miles away at a time.

Speed is speed. Now reaction time is a little different, but still doesn't matter if you can't back it up with your physical speed. That's day one Naruto stuff, bro. 😬

When we say "combat speed", we also/actually mean "reaction speed", bro.

That is why we differentiated it from travel speed.....

Originally posted by Nibedicus
When we say "combat speed", we also/actually mean "reaction speed", bro.

That is why we differentiated it from travel speed.....

But saying combat speed is incorrect. If someone can react to something, it doesn't mean that their body can. This should be obvious already. And not to mention, that if someone's body can't react to something, then it makes the thing faster than them, right? But what if the person, let's say Superman, can fly ridiculously faster than whatever it is, in a straight line? Then that means he's FASTER than it, even if only in the long-term. This just means that he would have to fly around, and slam into whoever he's fighting, if they're faster than him, up close.

However, Superman also has heightened senses. Most fast characters do. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to move at that speed period, without risking dying from running into something.

The point I'm trying to make is that if Superman can fly at close to light speed, it doesn't matter if QS can move at mach 200, because even he's gonna look still to Superman, since he can react to things at his flight speed, which is proven by him fighting while flying in the first place. 👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1) But saying combat speed is incorrect.

1.b)If someone can react to something, it doesn't mean that their body can. This should be obvious already. And not to mention, that if someone's body can't react to something, then it makes the thing faster than them, right?

1.c) But what if the person, let's say Superman, can fly ridiculously faster than whatever it is, in a straight line? Then that means he's FASTER than it, even if only in the long-term. This just means that he would have to fly around, and slam into whoever he's fighting, if they're faster than him, up close.

2) However, Superman also has heightened senses. Most fast characters do. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to move at that speed period, without risking dying from running into something.

3) The point I'm trying to make is that if Superman can fly at close to light speed, it doesn't matter if QS can move at mach 200, because even he's gonna look still to Superman,

3.b) since he can react to things at his flight speed, which is proven by him fighting while flying in the first place. 👆

1) I'll call it "reaction speed" if that floats your boat. Tho, I thought it was pretty obvious with my "not travel speed" description and how reaction speed and combat speed have been interchangeable in these forums in the past.... But semantics.

1.b) Yes. Perception and reflex speed are 2 different things. Travel speed and reaction speed are different as well. We take each capability as separate unique characteristics of a character and use "feats" to guage the extent of each.

1.c) Disagree. While it is true that being faster than something in a straight line would give you the opportunity to turn around and just intercept said target, once an object leaves your inerial frame of reference, it would be dependent on your ability to react within the time it takes for object X (travelling at Y speed plus your speef) to pass your field of vision. Basically, if the object + your speed is too fast for you to percieve or if you did not allow for sufficient distance to allow you the time needed to react/perciece to said object, you can still end up missing each other.

Example: 2 planes travel at different speeds. Plane X travels much faster than Y. Plane X passes Y. Plane X turns around to intercept Y. It would still be dependent on the pilot of plane X to still perciece Y sufficiently to intercept. And if he didn't allot enough distance he might end up missing plane Y.

2) That is an asserion, not a fact. Many characters with super fast travel speed do not have super fast perception or at least were not shown to have super fast perception. Ex. Iron Man, Silver Surfer, airplane pilots, racecar drivers.

3) MoS (aka movie) Superman was NEVER shown close to light speed. At best it was Mach 5000 when he and Zod made the trip from Earth's surface to low earth orbit. Although, I would argue that as I feel like the time it took was "cut" (it was never shown that they travelled the distance) in order to keep the pacing of the fight. But as I will not argue that for now. Let's just say mach 5000.

3.b) Disagree. See above. Essentially, being able to move at X DOES not mean that you have the necessary physical characteristics to react to objects once they move out of your inertial frame of reference.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
It doesn't work that way. Speed via flying does not create a "slowdown effect" like Quicksilver's. It has to be shown/demonstrated that they have the ability. Essentially:

Time didn't slow because QS was running fast.

Time was slow because he percieves things at that speed AND the fact he is fast is separate.

As for throwing superstrong punches. We will need to follow the Hulk rule here. The guy was throwing punches that caused shockwaves felt blocks away with his punches. Yet we do not assume he has superspeed. Basically, powerpunches from superstrong characters alludes to some form of speed but it does not quantify it.

The link you posted had the best method for determining speed. Visible actions/frame, distance relative to surroundings/frame, speed relative to quantifiable objects in motion (bullet vs character for example) are the best indicators as they are without a doubt easily quantifiable.

Running and flying are two different forms of travel though, I don't see the difference, can you explain it better. From what we seen you have to be going a certain speed to get the slow down effect. So either flying or running would create that because both are a form of travel.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Running and flying are two different forms of travel though, I don't see the difference, can you explain it better. From what we seen you have to be going a certain speed to get the slow down effect. So either flying or running would create that because both are a form of travel.

No, the "slowdown" effect happens to QS in the movies so that the audience could experience the world in QS's sped-up point of view. It didn't happen because he could run fast. It happened because he can view the world at this rate of speed. His run/limb speed was separate.

Even when stationary (as he was putting on his strangely durable headset), he was viewing the world from this slowed down perspective (bullets actually stopped in time from his perspective),

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) I'll call it "reaction speed" if that floats your boat. Tho, I thought it was pretty obvious with my "not travel speed" description and how reaction speed and combat speed have been interchangeable in these forums in the past.... But semantics.

1.b) Yes. Perception and reflex speed are 2 different things. Travel speed and reaction speed are different as well. We take each capability as separate unique characteristics of a character and use "feats" to guage the extent of each.

1.c) Disagree. While it is true that being faster than something in a straight line would give you the opportunity to turn around and just intercept said target, once an object leaves your inerial frame of reference, it would be dependent on your ability to react within the time it takes for object X (travelling at Y speed plus your speef) to pass your field of vision. Basically, if the object + your speed is too fast for you to percieve or if you did not allow for sufficient distance to allow you the time needed to react/perciece to said object, you can still end up missing each other.

Example: 2 planes travel at different speeds. Plane X travels much faster than Y. Plane X passes Y. Plane X turns around to intercept Y. It would still be dependent on the pilot of plane X to still perciece Y sufficiently to intercept. And if he didn't allot enough distance he might end up missing plane Y.

2) That is an asserion, not a fact. Many characters with super fast travel speed do not have super fast perception or at least were not shown to have super fast perception. Ex. Iron Man, Silver Surfer, airplane pilots, racecar drivers.

3) MoS (aka movie) Superman was NEVER shown close to light speed. At best it was Mach 5000 when he and Zod made the trip from Earth's surface to low earth orbit. Although, I would argue that as I feel like the time it took was "cut" (it was never shown that they travelled the distance) in order to keep the pacing of the fight. But as I will not argue that for now. Let's just say mach 5000.

3.b) Disagree. See above. Essentially, being able to move at X DOES not mean that you have the necessary physical characteristics to react to objects once they move out of your inertial frame of reference.

1. They are the same thing. What you're talking about is simply reaction speed. As in a character being able to dodge something. This is determined by many factors though, such as the speed at which the character perceives things, as well as how fast they can move in the first place. The master of this kind of speed is the Flash, as he can move effortlessly with his frictionless aura. However, Superman can ALSO achieve this feat, but ONLY while flying. The reason is BECAUSE of how strong Superman is. In several versions, he tried to take off too fast, and ended up pushing the Earth out of orbit or something. That has happened many times. But while he's flying, he has perfect maneuverability, speed, and control. The the point where he has been able to fly across thousands of galaxies in a single second, while dodging all the stars, planets, and black holes. He simply can't do so on the ground though, without simply pushing his foot through it, or kicking Earth out of the solar system(in the comics). This is completely different from the Flash though, and characters like Goku, especially. Goku possesses the striking power to flick away solar system busting attacks, but he's also able to move effortlessly on the ground, at speeds that make light look slow.

But the reason for this, is simply in the delivery of Superman's strength. He is just super strong, and super fast. He can't precisely control his ki, to push himself off of the air, into a single step, to dodge something faster than himself, even if he is able to perceive it, and is faster than it, in a straight line. But he's STILL faster than the object, and can even fly in a direction to dodge it, but he can't use his speed the way that Goku or the Flash can, simply because his speed IS reliant on his strength, especially when on foot.

2. Um, I don't get the point you're making here. Superman has caught planes, and stopped them from crashing. He is MUCH more capable of maneuvering in the air than a plane is. Hell, he is so precise in his movements, that he was able to perform lobotomy on an enemy with his heat vision, combined with his x-ray, and microscope vision, WHILE FLYING AND FIGHTING THEM. He is very maneuverable in the air, which makes this entire point... pointless. 😎

3. Um, no. MOS Superman, when he FIRST taught himself how to fly, flew around at least HALF the planet, and this is from orbit, in around 1 second, on screen. This is actually lowballed, since he simply came from around one side of the planet, and flew off screen. And this was just him testing his limits out. He wasn't even being serious. Not to mention that the fight scenes were slowed down. Why do you think the kryptonians were able to catch bullets, and still be visible to us? lol. Just like the QS scene, in DOFP.

4. Um... What is your point here? Superman was knocking Zod all over the city, blasting him away at the same speed he was flying, and still managed to trade blows with him while doing so. The same thing happened when the other Kryptonians were fighting Superman, like the diner scene. They were able to move AT FULL SPEED at close range, because they TRAINED to. Superman never trained to. But he STILL overcame them, because he was able to fight WHILE flying at full speed. Which makes time relative to him slower, like with QS, or the Flash, or any speedster. It is a fact that time goes slower relatively to you, the faster you go. Which is why reaction speed exists in the first place. If you were moving at light speed+, or even something close to it, and time was still moving at the same speed, you would be moving too fast to even know what you were doing. Especially if you couldn't perceive speeds that fast.

My point is that if you can move as fast as MOS Superman does, and can fight while doing so, then you can EASILY do the same kind of things that QS did in DOFP, but to as high of a degree as the speed you can move at. So lets say QS is mach 250. Superman is 1/14th LS. Mach 250 is only 54.6 miles per second. 1/14th LS is 13,285.7 miles per second. That makes Superman over 243 times faster than QS. Meaning that he would have no trouble doing to QS, what QS did to the guards. At least.

So everyone now agrees that MOS Superman is near the bottom of the list, right?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. They are the same thing. What you're talking about is simply reaction speed. As in a character being able to dodge something. This is determined by many factors though, such as the speed at which the character perceives things, as well as how fast they can move in the first place. The master of this kind of speed is the Flash, as he can move effortlessly with his frictionless aura. However, Superman can ALSO achieve this feat, but ONLY while flying. The reason is BECAUSE of how strong Superman is. In several versions, he tried to take off too fast, and ended up pushing the Earth out of orbit or something. That has happened many times. But while he's flying, he has perfect maneuverability, speed, and control. The the point where he has been able to fly across thousands of galaxies in a single second, while dodging all the stars, planets, and black holes. He simply can't do so on the ground though, without simply pushing his foot through it, or kicking Earth out of the solar system(in the comics). This is completely different from the Flash though, and characters like Goku, especially. Goku possesses the striking power to flick away solar system busting attacks, but he's also able to move effortlessly on the ground, at speeds that make light look slow.

But the reason for this, is simply in the delivery of Superman's strength. He is just super strong, and super fast. He can't precisely control his ki, to push himself off of the air, into a single step, to dodge something faster than himself, even if he is able to perceive it, and is faster than it, in a straight line. But he's STILL faster than the object, and can even fly in a direction to dodge it, but he can't use his speed the way that Goku or the Flash can, simply because his speed IS reliant on his strength, especially when on foot.

2. Um, I don't get the point you're making here. Superman has caught planes, and stopped them from crashing. He is MUCH more capable of maneuvering in the air than a plane is. Hell, he is so precise in his movements, that he was able to perform lobotomy on an enemy with his heat vision, combined with his x-ray, and microscope vision, WHILE FLYING AND FIGHTING THEM. He is very maneuverable in the air, which makes this entire point... pointless. 😎

3. Um, no. MOS Superman, when he FIRST taught himself how to fly, flew around at least HALF the planet, and this is from orbit, in around 1 second, on screen. This is actually lowballed, since he simply came from around one side of the planet, and flew off screen. And this was just him testing his limits out. He wasn't even being serious. Not to mention that the fight scenes were slowed down. Why do you think the kryptonians were able to catch bullets, and still be visible to us? lol. Just like the QS scene, in DOFP.

4. Um... What is your point here? Superman was knocking Zod all over the city, blasting him away at the same speed he was flying, and still managed to trade blows with him while doing so. The same thing happened when the other Kryptonians were fighting Superman, like the diner scene. They were able to move AT FULL SPEED at close range, because they TRAINED to. Superman never trained to. But he STILL overcame them, because he was able to fight WHILE flying at full speed. Which makes time relative to him slower, like with QS, or the Flash, or any speedster. It is a fact that time goes slower relatively to you, the faster you go. Which is why reaction speed exists in the first place. If you were moving at light speed+, or even something close to it, and time was still moving at the same speed, you would be moving too fast to even know what you were doing. Especially if you couldn't perceive speeds that fast.

My point is that if you can move as fast as MOS Superman does, and can fight while doing so, then you can EASILY do the same kind of things that QS did in DOFP, but to as high of a degree as the speed you can move at. So lets say QS is mach 250. Superman is 1/14th LS. Mach 250 is only 54.6 miles per second. 1/14th LS is 13,285.7 miles per second. That makes Superman over 243 times faster than QS. Meaning that he would have no trouble doing to QS, what QS did to the guards. At least.

1. Um. Wrong character buddy. This is MoS Superman. You know, like the 2013 Man of Steel movie....facepalm. Becaue, you know, that character didn't perform any of those "feats" you're mentioning like lobotomizing enemies or catching airplanes... This version of Superman hasn't travelled to distant galaxies yet, wtf. Maybe you need to check OP before posting long ass paragraphs. Y'know, like basic forum stuff.

The rest of your argument does not make sense. Being strong does not give you faster reaction times. Nor does it increase your perception speed. That is just crazy talk. Those are separate abilities and you can only prove that the character posseses those once you show on screen "feats" (aka. Evidence) of them performing those. Again, present direct evidence to prove argument.

2. See above. Wrong Superman, buddy.

3. Nope. Not seeing where he flew halfway across the world in one second here. Looks like he just went up the atmosphere and reentered. Post the scene and tell me where you're seeing what you're saying via timestamps.

4. If you do actions per frame per second at no time were they going as fast as you say they're going. He was not flying at full speed when at the ground, that is an assumption. Do distance vs time computes. He didn't "overcome" them, and even if he did they were not "trained" to fight at superspeed, all these are new abilities to them. They're trained warriors sure. Him being able to fight against them isn't proof of him fighting at the superspeed level you're trying to make it out to be because we can actually see the fight, do an action per frame per second and conclude from basic math the extent of how fast they are going in contrast to normal humans.

Frankly, no offense (really honestly, I apologize if this seems mean) but your whole argument is a mess. One non sequitor after another. And I'm not sure it's even worth it to try and debate with you as I feel like your rebuttal will be as messy as this one...

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. Um. Wrong character buddy. This is MoS Superman. You know, like the 2013 Man of Steel movie....facepalm. Becaue, you know, that character didn't perform any of those "feats" you're mentioning like lobotomizing enemies or catching airplanes... This version of Superman hasn't travelled to distant galaxies yet, wtf. Maybe you need to check OP before posting long ass paragraphs. Y'know, like basic forum stuff.

The rest of your argument does not make sense. Being strong does not give you faster reaction times. Nor does it increase your perception speed. That is just crazy talk. Those are separate abilities and you can only prove that the character posseses those once you show on screen "feats" (aka. Evidence) of them performing those. Again, present direct evidence to prove argument.

2. See above. Wrong Superman, buddy.

3. Nope. Not seeing where he flew halfway across the world in one second here. Looks like he just went up the atmosphere and reentered. Post the scene and tell me where you're seeing what you're saying via timestamps.

4. If you do actions per frame per second at no time were they going as fast as you say they're going. He was not flying at full speed when at the ground, that is an assumption. Do distance vs time computes. He didn't "overcome" them, and even if he did they were not "trained" to fight at superspeed, all these are new abilities to them. They're trained warriors sure. Him being able to fight against them isn't proof of him fighting at the superspeed level you're trying to make it out to be because we can actually see the fight, do an action per frame per second and conclude from basic math the extent of how fast they are going in contrast to normal humans.

Frankly, no offense (really honestly, I apologize if this seems mean) but your whole argument is a mess. One non sequitor after another. And I'm not sure it's even worth it to try and debate with you as I feel like your rebuttal will be as messy as this one...

1. Um... What's your point? I am VERY aware this is just MOS Superman we're talking about here. If it wasn't he would be every number on the list, and the others wouldn't even be here. My intent was to show examples of why Superman can't perform the speed feats you want him to be able to, but clearly you're not smart enough to relate things to each other, which explains this idiotic argument you're starting in the first place.

Wtf? Did you even read my post? My point is that Superman isn't an expert martial artist, like Goku, and isn't just a variable speedster like the Flash. He is a tank, a juggernaut of power and hubris, capable of moving at ridiculous speeds because of his flight. Which is why he isn't typically shown being able to run as fast as someone like the Flash, even though he can fly FASTER than he can run, in most versions. The fact of the matter, is that Superman doesn't have incredible feats of dodging things at short range for two reasons, and this goes for ALL versions, not JUST MOS. The first, is that he is too strong in his legs, meaning that if he took off at full speed in a run, he would end up just pushing his leg THROUGH the ground. The second reason is because he doesn't NEED to dodge things at super high speeds, like the Flash does. If he needs to get somewhere, he can fly there at stupidly fast speed. If he needs to dodge something... He phucking tanks it. That's who Superman is, EVEN IN MOS. 👆

2.

YOU'RE MISSING THE PHUCKING POINT, MATE. SUPERMAN HAS PERFECT MANEUVERABILITY IN THE AIR, but not on the ground, SIMPLY BECAUSE HE HASN'T TRAINED. Why do you think the other Kryptonians were BLITZING THE PHUCK out of him, even though he had been storing up solar energy for his WHOLE LIFE?? Superman is a farm hand, not a martial artist, or a trained fighter. 👆

3. I can't find the movie online, but I'm talking about when he first got his uniform, and Jor-El was talking to him, telling him to test his limits. After he broke the mountain top, by crashing into it, he took off, and it showed a view of him coming from AROUND the planet, before it slowed down for a moment to show him flying, before showing the actual view again, as he flew back down to the surface of the planet. Without the slow-mo, this scene lasted less than two seconds. I'm watching it on my PS4 right now. 👆

4. Um... Get back to OBD. You are joking, right? Going by your RETARDED logic, QS wasn't ACTUALLY mach 250, everyone else was just moving super slow, for no reason. 👇 You're... *sigh*

I didn't say he could fight at the same speed as them. He obviously can't. But he was still able to overcome that, by using his flight speed to combat them, instead of making it a close-up fight. If they had taken stances, and started boxing, staying in an area of say 10 square feet, the other Kryptonians would have CRUSHED him. Again, he's used to just flying to go help someone. They are used to fighting people up close, and personal. They can use their speed like speedsters, while he can only use it while flying. Which is why the diner scene happened, and why he got PWNED, due to his lack of combat training. He. Is. Not. A. Warrior. He's a farm-hand. 👆

jawdrop

MY argument is a mess?! You're the one saying that someone who is mach 250 is FASTER than someone who can fly around half the planet in under two seconds. 👇

dontgetit

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Um... What's your point? I am VERY aware this is just MOS Superman we're talking about here. If it wasn't he would be every number on the list, and the others wouldn't even be here. My intent was to show examples of why Superman can't perform the speed feats you want him to be able to, but clearly you're not smart enough to relate things to each other, which explains this idiotic argument you're starting in the first place.

Wtf? Did you even read my post? My point is that Superman isn't an expert martial artist, like Goku, and isn't just a variable speedster like the Flash. He is a tank, a juggernaut of power and hubris, capable of moving at ridiculous speeds because of his flight. Which is why he isn't typically shown being able to run as fast as someone like the Flash, even though he can fly FASTER than he can run, in most versions. The fact of the matter, is that Superman doesn't have incredible feats of dodging things at short range for two reasons, and this goes for ALL versions, not JUST MOS. The first, is that he is too strong in his legs, meaning that if he took off at full speed in a run, he would end up just pushing his leg THROUGH the ground. The second reason is because he doesn't NEED to dodge things at super high speeds, like the Flash does. If he needs to get somewhere, he can fly there at stupidly fast speed. If he needs to dodge something... He phucking tanks it. That's who Superman is, EVEN IN MOS. 👆

2.

YOU'RE MISSING THE PHUCKING POINT, MATE. SUPERMAN HAS PERFECT MANEUVERABILITY IN THE AIR, but not on the ground, SIMPLY BECAUSE HE HASN'T TRAINED. Why do you think the other Kryptonians were BLITZING THE PHUCK out of him, even though he had been storing up solar energy for his WHOLE LIFE?? Superman is a farm hand, not a martial artist, or a trained fighter. 👆

3. I can't find the movie online, but I'm talking about when he first got his uniform, and Jor-El was talking to him, telling him to test his limits. After he broke the mountain top, by crashing into it, he took off, and it showed a view of him coming from AROUND the planet, before it slowed down for a moment to show him flying, before showing the actual view again, as he flew back down to the surface of the planet. Without the slow-mo, this scene lasted less than two seconds. I'm watching it on my PS4 right now. 👆

4. Um... Get back to OBD. You are joking, right? Going by your RETARDED logic, QS wasn't ACTUALLY mach 250, everyone else was just moving super slow, for no reason. 👇 You're... *sigh*

I didn't say he could fight at the same speed as them. He obviously can't. But he was still able to overcome that, by using his flight speed to combat them, instead of making it a close-up fight. If they had taken stances, and started boxing, staying in an area of say 10 square feet, the other Kryptonians would have CRUSHED him. Again, he's used to just flying to go help someone. They are used to fighting people up close, and personal. They can use their speed like speedsters, while he can only use it while flying. Which is why the diner scene happened, and why he got PWNED, due to his lack of combat training. He. Is. Not. A. Warrior. He's a farm-hand. 👆

jawdrop

[B]MY argument is a mess?! You're the one saying that someone who is mach 250 is FASTER than someone who can fly around half the planet in under two seconds. 👇

dontgetit [/B]

1. Uh-huh. Tossing "feats" like X-ray lobotmies, traveling galaxies, catching airplanes in a debate and then getting mad when told that these things are meaningless in this debate as the character in question has never done any of these things. FFS.

Frankly, I don't even see where anything you said in this paragraph proves and quantifies Superman's speed for use in this debate. But let me address them:

-Yes, superman superman is not an expert MA-er like goku. And yes he might be a tank and juggernaut of power and hubris (seriously?).
-No, he has shown the ability to leap and his feet leaving craters at time didn't really affect his ability to propel himself so I don't see how it would greatly affect his running as you put greater force in leaping than running.
-Yes, he doesn't need to dodge a lot of things. Cept maybe the A-10 rounds that he tried to dodge but failed to.
-Yes, he can tank a lot of stuff, but he's shown the need to dodge stuff in the movies, like Zod's punches and A-10 gunfire so that kinda kills your "tank all" argument.

All of the above "arguments" prove nothing. Seriously, how does:

"He doesn't need to dodge", "running could cause his feet to sink thru the earth" and him "being a juggernaut of power and (lol) hubris".

Lead to him having superspeed? I mean think about that a little.

I mean you could make maybe an argument that this could be the reason for the lack of evidence. But having an excuse for a lack of evidence does not create evidence for you.

Essentially, your logic is bad and your "point" (if it ever existed) is lost amidst a clusterphuck of irrelevant information and non sequitors.

Here's a challenge: Simplify your point in 2-4 sentences. See if you can come up with a cohesive, convincing argument that would would prove that Superman has the superspeed you are touting him to have. Add a clip or two to prove your point. Don't give me this garbled mess else I might have have to just start ignoring you.

2. Him making hairpin turns is not "perfect maneuverability". Racecar stunt drivers do that all the time at high speeds. So do stunt airplane pilots. Their limitation is simply their G-tolerance and the vehicle they are using but the fact that they are limited by such factors and are still able to do pinpoint maneuvers kinda craps on your entire point. And it's not as if he was maneuvering thru tiny street corners, he was turning thru large skyscrapers. And most importantly, great maneuverability does not equate superspeed. And yes, we ARE talking about reaction superspeed here, in case you want it clarified.

Not training and competitvely fighting a fast opponent is not a direct indicator of superspeed. Also, his opponents were not "trained" to use their abilities because they just got it. I mean, he even managed to use their supersenes against them because they were so unaccustomed to it.

And why are we even using inferential logic when there is DIRECT EVIDENCE that prove the presence/absence of superspeed: Visually, we can measure the speed they are moving via actions per frames per second and if you start doing that, they rarely ever go 1-2 actions per second, other than Faora. Learn logic. Learn math. For God's sake learn something. This is such a waste of my time....

facepalm

3. It was not half the planet. He went high up the atmosphere and traveled an unspecified distance (oh! And it was slo-mo'd now, is it??). But if you can PROVE this theory with goegraphic markers of where he started and where he ended within those few seconds, be my guest. Otherwise, you're just talking out of your ass.

4. Are... Are you kidding me? Did you not read the part where I explained (to Time Imm) that the Slo mo effect was a cinematic tool obviously used to allow the audience to view the world from QS perspective? Which part of my logic can you cite where you came up with this? Pls quote or underline which logic it is. Are you just this bad at understanding logical arguments?

I've already explained in this thread that one of the best indicator for speed quantification is actions/frame/second. But (if you've been following this debate) I've also mentioned that actions can also be compared relative to benchmarkable objects in motion (outrunning a bullet for example would mean your speed > bullet speed which can then quantified via benchmarking the speed of the bullet according to what gun/round it was).

5. Pls quote me where I said that QS was faster than Superman in travel speed. I would love to see where that was mentioned.

At this point, you sound like a raving lunatic. At this point, I'm not even sure what you're even arguing about or if you're just pissed I treated you so dismissively.If that's the case, hey, look: I'm sorry if I treated you badly, that was not my intention and I swear I tried to not sound so dismissive or condescending (if that is the case). Would it be ok for you to just choose what your argument is from the list below so we can both be on the same page (cuz right now I'm not even sure what you're arguing in all honesty).

Your argument is (check one):
(1) superman has near light reaction speed.
(2) superman has supersonic reaction speed.
(3) superman has subsonic reaction speed.
(4) superman has superhuman reaction speed that I can't quantify but I'm sure he has it in some way. But is not within the above range.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. Uh-huh. Tossing "feats" like X-ray lobotmies, traveling galaxies, catching airplanes in a debate and then getting mad when told that these things are meaningless in this debate as the character in question [b]has never done any of these things. FFS.

Frankly, I don't even see where anything you said in this paragraph proves and quantifies Superman's speed for use in this debate. But let me address them:

-Yes, superman superman is not an expert MA-er like goku. And yes he might be a tank and juggernaut of power and hubris (seriously?).
-No, he has shown the ability to leap and his feet leaving craters at time didn't really affect his ability to propel himself so I don't see how it would greatly affect his running as you put greater force in leaping than running.
-Yes, he doesn't need to dodge a lot of things. Cept maybe the A-10 rounds that he tried to dodge but failed to.
-Yes, he can tank a lot of stuff, but he's shown the need to dodge stuff in the movies, like Zod's punches and A-10 gunfire so that kinda kills your "tank all" argument.

All of the above "arguments" prove nothing. Seriously, how does:

"He doesn't need to dodge", "running could cause his feet to sink thru the earth" and him "being a juggernaut of power and (lol) hubris".

Lead to him having superspeed? I mean think about that a little.

I mean you could make maybe an argument that this could be the reason for the lack of evidence. But having an excuse for a lack of evidence does not create evidence for you.

Essentially, your logic is bad and your "point" (if it ever existed) is lost amidst a clusterphuck of irrelevant information and non sequitors.

Here's a challenge: Simplify your point in 2-4 sentences. See if you can come up with a cohesive, convincing argument that would would prove that Superman has the superspeed you are touting him to have. Add a clip or two to prove your point. Don't give me this garbled mess else I might have have to just start ignoring you.

2. Him making hairpin turns is not "perfect maneuverability". Racecar stunt drivers do that all the time at high speeds. So do stunt airplane pilots. Their limitation is simply their G-tolerance and the vehicle they are using but the fact that they are limited by such factors and are still able to do pinpoint maneuvers kinda craps on your entire point. And it's not as if he was maneuvering thru tiny street corners, he was turning thru large skyscrapers. And most importantly, great maneuverability does not equate superspeed. And yes, we ARE talking about reaction superspeed here, in case you want it clarified.

Not training and competitvely fighting a fast opponent is not a direct indicator of superspeed. Also, his opponents were not "trained" to use their abilities because they just got it. I mean, he even managed to use their supersenes against them because they were so unaccustomed to it.

And why are we even using inferential logic when there is DIRECT EVIDENCE that prove the presence/absence of superspeed: Visually, we can measure the speed they are moving via actions per frames per second and if you start doing that, they rarely ever go 1-2 actions per second, other than Faora. Learn logic. Learn math. For God's sake learn something. This is such a waste of my time....

facepalm

3. It was not half the planet. He went high up the atmosphere and traveled an unspecified distance (oh! And it was slo-mo'd now, is it??). But if you can PROVE this theory with goegraphic markers of where he started and where he ended within those few seconds, be my guest. Otherwise, you're just talking out of your ass.

4. Are... Are you kidding me? Did you not read the part where I explained (to Time Imm) that the Slo mo effect was a cinematic tool obviously used to allow the audience to view the world from QS perspective? Which part of my logic can you cite where you came up with this? Pls quote or underline which logic it is. Are you just this bad at understanding logical arguments?

I've already explained in this thread that one of the best indicator for speed quantification is actions/frame/second. But (if you've been following this debate) I've also mentioned that actions can also be compared relative to benchmarkable objects in motion (outrunning a bullet for example would mean your speed > bullet speed which can then quantified via benchmarking the speed of the bullet according to what gun/round it was).

5. Pls quote me where I said that QS was faster than Superman in travel speed. I would love to see where that was mentioned.

At this point, you sound like a raving lunatic. At this point, I'm not even sure what you're even arguing about or if you're just pissed I treated you so dismissively.If that's the case, hey, look: I'm sorry if I treated you badly, that was not my intention and I swear I tried to not sound so dismissive or condescending (if that is the case). Would it be ok for you to just choose what your argument is from the list below so we can both be on the same page (cuz right now I'm not even sure what you're arguing in all honesty).

Your argument is (check one):
(1) superman has near light reaction speed.
(2) superman has supersonic reaction speed.
(3) superman has subsonic reaction speed.
(4) superman has superhuman reaction speed that I can't quantify but I'm sure he has it in some way. But is not within the above range. [/B]

This is gonna look almost as funny as your entire post, lol, since I only need a couple sentences to shit on it. 👇

So basically your argument is that Superman doesn't have super speed, which I gathered from you telling me to prove that he does. facepalm

The only proof of that I need is the fact that HE FLEW SO FAST THAT HE EFFORTLESSLY BROKE MACH CONES, AND FLEW AROUND A LARGE CHUNK OF THE ENTIRE PLANET. IN SECONDS.

And if you don't get how fighting, while flying at speeds that great, quantifies super speed, and reaction speed, then you're even dumber than I originally thought. 👆

My argument is that Superman is the fastest here, BY FAR.

Now let me ask you what YOUR argument is, because you still haven't even posted something resembling an argument. All you've been doing is throwing around the most idiotic, contradictory statements about speed that I've ever seen. In the midst of all your idiotic, incoherent posts, you still haven't even made a STANCE. 👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
This is gonna look almost as funny as your entire post, lol, since I only need a couple sentences to shit on it. 👇

So basically your argument is that Superman doesn't have super speed, which I gathered from you telling me to prove that he does. facepalm

The only proof of that I need is the fact that HE FLEW SO FAST THAT HE EFFORTLESSLY BROKE MACH CONES, AND FLEW AROUND A LARGE CHUNK OF THE ENTIRE PLANET. IN SECONDS.

And if you don't get how fighting, while flying at speeds that great, quantifies super speed, and reaction speed, then you're even dumber than I originally thought. 👆

My argument is that Superman is the fastest here, BY FAR.

Now let me ask you what YOUR argument is, because you still haven't even posted something resembling an argument. All you've been doing is throwing around the most idiotic, contradictory statements about speed that I've ever seen. In the midst of all your idiotic, incoherent posts, you still haven't even made a STANCE. 👆

............

facepalm

Originally posted by Silent Master
He's trolling.

Yeah... At this point, I think he is.... /ignore

Originally posted by Nibedicus
............

facepalm

Yeah... At this point, I think he is.... /ignore

Basically my response to all of your posts. 👆

Yeah, good idea. When you make statements as stupid as "Superman doesn't have super speed", then you probably SHOULD quit. 👆

MOS has high flight speed, it's not the same as Metro Man whose perceptions were so fast he could literally travel around the city, read multiple books, eat lunch and think about the direction of his life. all the while the rest of the world appears to be frozen in time.

Originally posted by Silent Master
MOS has high flight speed, it's not the same as Metro Man whose perceptions were so fast he could literally travel around the city, read multiple books, eat lunch and think about the direction of his life. all the while the rest of the world appears to be frozen in time.

Hm, well TBH, that could be a really impressive feat, but is likely only around the level of QS's feat.

And again, Superman DOES have that kind of perception speed.

Think about it, if he's flying so fast that he is traveling ACROSS THE GLOBE in just a few seconds, then how could he NOT have ridiculous perception speed, given that he was flying low enough to the ground to run into even other people, lol. I'm specifically talking about when Zod was hassling his mother. Sure, there weren't any super slowed down scenes in MOS, but that doesn't mean anything. His feats are still his feats. If he can move at a speed comparable to LS, then he would HAVE to be able to react to things at that same speed, to be able to fight at it in the first place.

You're taking his most impressive straight line flight speed and applying it to the times he was maneuvering around objects, you have no proof that Supreman was flying at that speed during sed scene. flying in straight lines doesn't require superspeed reactions, or else all people that can drive or fly vehicles would have superspeed.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Rank the ff. From fastest to slowest according to best on screen combat speed (NOT travel speed) showing (low/average "feats" not allowed). No "assumption of speed" allowed. Speed must be visually evident in an on screen showing of GTFO.

-Quicksilver (X-Men: Days of Future past)
-Obi Wan (Star Wars franchise)
-Superman (MoS)
-Metro Man (Megamind)
-Agents (the Matrix)
-The Beast (Kung-Fu hustle)
-Russel Edgington (True Blood)
-G-Girl (My Super Ex Gf)

Metro man, Quicksilver, then the beast, then the agents, the mos, then obi wan (assuming he blocks lasers cause he senses them before they are fired). Idk the others really and not sure my ranking is correct. I have to think about it some more.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You're taking his most impressive straight line flight speed and applying it to the times he was maneuvering around objects, you have no proof that Supreman was flying at that speed during sed scene. flying in straight lines doesn't require superspeed reactions, or else all people that can drive or fly vehicles would have superspeed.

Why do you think driving is so dangerous? Because people DON'T have superspeed reactions. But you're somewhat correct. Except for the fact that Superman is capable of "driving a car", aka flying his body, with the same precision that normal people do at, let's say 50 mph, AT 1/14TH light speed. That is CLEARLY super reaction speed.

And Superman was maneuvering through buildings, as well as dodging attacks from Zod. He wasn't just flying in a straight line. And also, have you forgotten the fight scene's with him and the other kryptonians? Yes, Superman was inferior to them in combat speed, but he WAS able to contend with them, because his flight speed was slightly faster than their combat speed. But what this proves is that Superman has the SAME reaction speed as his flight speed, otherwise the other kryptonians would have sharted on him, EFFORTLESSLY, by tagging him with dozens of hits while he charged them.