Originally posted by SyndicateThey were not dueling evenly. She was retreating the entire time. And in Dark Disciple, the best she did was briefly push him back before overextending and getting her ass thrown to the ground. She's no match for him.
They dueled pretty evenly actually and Dooku only managed to disarm her through the Force. I freely admit Dooku is the superior force user to Ventress just like Vader is to Ahsoka.
Except Ventress is incapable of truly challenging Dooku solo, while Ahsoka can challenge a more powerful opponent in Vader alone. If Ventress is getting decimated by Dooku's Force use, she'd fare even worse against Vader. And if Ahsoka is Ventress-tier with the Force, she would not be challenging Vader, on a dark side nexus no less. (I believe Malachor is a DS nexus in canon, at least).
Originally posted by SyndicateMace Windu drove her off very quickly and Ventress admitted clear inferiority against him, and he likely was pressed in trying to drive her off in such short a time, seeing as how Sora Bulq was left unoccupied and K'Kruhk was injured, so time was definitely of the essence. Also, there's the fact she repeatedly proved to be incapable of pressing Mace's peer, Dooku, to such an extent the quote claimed she did against Windu. That quote just seems like a load of horseshit given the context of the duel, honestly.
It said it took all of his skill to defeat her not to drive her off in the time it did. The ways its worded also hints that if he had been any less skilled or if Ventress had been any more skilled it would have ended in a stalemate or Ventress's victory. Who knows maybe prime Ventress would have claimed victory.
Originally posted by SyndicateAs well as casually deflecting dozens of blaster shots, turning the air red when deflecting blasterfire, crushing a holocron in his hands, tanking lightsaber blows, surviving AT-AT fire, dodging the queen lyleks attacks, etc.
Why? Because we do not know anything about his physical capabilities other then that he can duel against cyborgs and Kanan, is fast enough to make a good amount of afterimages and can survive having an ATST dropped on him.
Originally posted by SyndicateI'd say pulverizing lyleks pre-prime is definitely better than what Dooku's shown.
Forcewise nothing he's done has been all that much better then Dooku
Vader extended a gloved hand and loosed a blast of power that blew apart two of the lyleks rushing toward him, showering those behind with gore and chunks of carapace. -Lords of the Sith
Blaster fire bounces off of lylek carapaces and are mused to be sturdier than armor by Isval, so that's an extremely good Force showing, especially given that that was before Vader's prime.
Vader also muses that he became more powerful after his injuries on Mustafar, and from TFA Visual Dictionary, Vader is referred to as the most powerful Sith.
Originally posted by SyndicateHonestly you should just debate yourself:
and Dooku still holds the skill edge from what we've seen of canon Vader.
Originally posted by Syndicate
How isAnakinDooku going to be as skilled or as powerful as an incarnation ofhimselfVader that has had decades more experience and has already adjusted his fighting style to encompass 3 other forms not including Djem So and compensate for any hindrances his suit might have caused, not to mention an incarnation ofhimselfVader that has shown far superior force feats.
Originally posted by |King Joker|
They were not dueling evenly. She was retreating the entire time. And in Dark Disciple, the best she did was briefly push him back before overextending and getting her ass thrown to the ground. She's no match for him.Except Ventress is incapable of truly challenging Dooku solo, while Ahsoka can challenge a more powerful opponent in Vader alone. If Ventress is getting decimated by Dooku's Force use, she'd fare even worse against Vader. And if Ahsoka is Ventress-tier with the Force, she would not be challenging Vader, on a dark side nexus no less. (I believe Malachor is a DS nexus in canon, at least).
Mace Windu drove her off very quickly and Ventress admitted clear inferiority against him, and he likely was pressed in trying to drive her off in such short a time, seeing as how Sora Bulq was left unoccupied and K'Kruhk was injured, so time was definitely of the essence. Also, there's the fact she repeatedly proved to be incapable of pressing Mace's peer, Dooku, to such an extent the quote claimed she did against Windu. That quote just seems like a load of horseshit given the context of the duel, honestly.
As well as casually deflecting dozens of blaster shots, turning the air red when deflecting blasterfire, crushing a holocron in his hands, tanking lightsaber blows, surviving AT-AT fire, dodging the queen lyleks attacks, etc.
I'd say pulverizing lyleks pre-prime is definitely better than what Dooku's shown.
Vader extended a gloved hand and loosed a blast of power that blew apart two of the lyleks rushing toward him, showering those behind with gore and chunks of carapace. -Lords of the Sith
Blaster fire bounces off of lylek carapaces and are mused to be sturdier than armor by Isval, so that's an extremely good Force showing, especially given that that was before Vader's prime.
Vader also muses that he became more powerful after his injuries on Mustafar, and from TFA Visual Dictionary, Vader is referred to as the most powerful Sith.
Honestly you should just debate yourself:
She can hold her own against him which is my point.
We don't know that. We haven't seen their fight yet. I predict Ahsoka will do about as well against Vader as Ventress did against Dooku. Since we have no evidence what the fight will be like as of yet my opinion is equally valid.
We don't know what Malachor's status in the Force is actually and Ahsoka hasn't yet demonstrated feats on Ventress's levels or her capabilities in not getting dominated by Vader's force abilities. It's all speculation at this point.
Personally I think Dooku is Mace's superior and I also believe that Ventress would not fare as well against her master who had a hand in developing her fighting style then Mace.
Yes and? Blocking dozens of bolt? Padawan Kanan blocked multiple. I'm not impressed. Padawan Kanan's also left a streak of color in the air after moving his lightsaber. Tanking lightsaber blows? I think you mean yelling out in pain when he was lightly scored by one. Holocron's which we have no idea how durable they are in new canon. ATAT fire he blocked with the Force and dodging a beast. All really puts him on Dooku level doesn't it? Well, not for me unfortunately.
Increasing pressure on the inside of a Lylek has no bearing on their outer shell's durability. Quote for Vader being the most powerful Sith?
That's Legends Vader. While I admit canon Vader still retains the experience and knowledge of Anakin we have no idea if he's yet compensated for his weaknesses in canon.
Originally posted by SyndicateFor a grand total of 15 seconds! Great! 10/10, Ventress!
She can hold her own against him which is my point.
Originally posted by SyndicateOh yes, I'm sure all of this buildup and hype for Ahsoka vs. Vader will result in a 15 second duel with Vader casually fending her off. 👆
We don't know that. We haven't seen their fight yet. I predict Ahsoka will do about as well against Vader as Ventress did against Dooku. Since we have no evidence what the fight will be like as of yet my opinion is equally valid.
Originally posted by SyndicatePlease... just think it out. Filoni said Ahsoka isn't going to be a pushover against Vader (meaning, she will challenge him and Vader will likely have trouble fighting her). So with that in mind, how can you honestly believe she can still be subjected to telekinetic domination, akin to Ventress with Dooku? And yes, it is all speculation. That's sort of the point of this thread's existence.
We don't know what Malachor's status in the Force is actually and Ahsoka hasn't yet demonstrated feats on Ventress's levels or her capabilities in not getting dominated by Vader's force abilities. It's all speculation at this point.
Originally posted by SyndicateI disagree with the first part, but fair enough on the second.
Personally I think Dooku is Mace's superior and I also believe that Ventress would not fare as well against her master who had a hand in developing her fighting style then Mace.
Originally posted by SyndicateMultiple < dozens casually. But regardless, I'm just responding to your claim of "we do not know any of his physical capabilities other than..."
Yes and? Blocking dozens of bolt? Padawan Kanan blocked multiple.
Originally posted by SyndicateIn a comic book. It's drawings. Why do people find artists' rendition of lightsabers and their movements impressive, anyways?
I'm not impressed. Padawan Kanan's also left a streak of color in the air after moving his lightsaber.
Originally posted by SyndicateNo, I think I mean him taking a full strike to the back from Karbin and being unphased afterwards.
Tanking lightsaber blows? I think you mean yelling out in pain when he was lightly scored by one.
Originally posted by SyndicateProof? And it's a physical feat given he survived.
ATAT fire he blocked with the Force and dodging a beast.
A beast that was giving Emperor Palpatine trouble, but sure, just dismiss it.
Originally posted by SyndicateWell, I'm really looking forward to those canon Dooku feats to put me in my place.
All really puts him on Dooku level doesn't it? Well, not for me unfortunately.
Originally posted by Syndicate...What are you talking about?
Increasing pressure on the inside of a Lylek has no bearing on their outer shell's durability.
Originally posted by Syndicate"Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy." -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary
Quote for Vader being the most powerful Sith?
Originally posted by Syndicate"Darth Vader has developed his own style of lightsaber fighting, designed to overcome the restrictions of his life-supported armor." -- Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know
That's Legends Vader. While I admit canon Vader still retains the experience and knowledge of Anakin we have no idea if he's yet compensated for his weaknesses in canon.
Originally posted by |King Joker|
For a grand total of 15 seconds! Great! 10/10, Ventress!
Oh yes, I'm sure all of this buildup and hype for Ahsoka vs. Vader will result in a 15 second duel with Vader casually fending her off. 👆
Please... just think it out. Filoni said Ahsoka isn't going to be a pushover against Vader (meaning, she will challenge him and Vader will likely have trouble fighting her). So with that in mind, how can you honestly believe she can still be subjected to telekinetic domination, akin to Ventress with Dooku? And yes, it is all speculation. That's sort of the point of this thread's existence.
I disagree with the first part, but fair enough on the second.
Multiple < dozens casually. But regardless, I'm just responding to your claim of "we do not know any of his physical capabilities other than..." In a comic book. It's drawings. Why do people find artists' rendition of lightsabers and their movements impressive, anyways? No, I think I mean him taking a full strike to the back from Karbin and being unphased afterwards. Proof? And it's a physical feat given he survived.A beast that was giving Emperor Palpatine trouble, but sure, just dismiss it. Well, I'm really looking forward to those canon Dooku feats to put me in my place.
...What are you talking about?
"Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy." -- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary
"Darth Vader has developed his own style of lightsaber fighting, designed to overcome the restrictions of his life-supported armor." -- Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know
All out? Sure. In pure lightsaber combat though who knows how long it would have gone on for.
Maybe. Maybe not. If Vader doesn't end up taking her out with the Force though it will have little bearing on her overall comparison to Ventress from a skill perspective. Only her actual performance against Vader will tell us that.
Which is fine but you telling me my opinion is outright wrong when we have no evidence either way is a bit ridiculous.
Fair enough.
In regards to my Kanan comparisons all I'm saying is what Vader's done is pretty standard. Nothing on his old level as of yet.
Ah, I missed that one. Fair enough.
Common sense. Those machines are made to take out enemy batteries, artillery and buildings. However durable Vader's armor is I doubt it's on that level.
My point being we have no idea how fast it was moving.
We're not comparing canon Dooku and canon Ventress. We're comparing their Legends incarnations.
Exerting outward pressure to burst a creature is going to kill it even if its durable outer shell remains intact.
This seems to be from Ren's perspective who given his fanwanking of Vader WOULD put him as the most powerful Jedi/Sith. Even if this is third person are you really going to attempt to claim canon Anakin and Vader are more powerful then Yoda and Sidious respectively?
Fair enough. Though he of course doesn't have the versatility of his Legends counterpart only having expertise in Ataru aside from Djem So.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Care to provide some examples? Not sure what you're saying frankly.
Obi-Wan vs Maul & Savage
Mace vs Sidious(Legends)
Vader vs Luke(ESB/ROTJ)
Kylo Ren vs Rey/Finn
Anakin/Vader vs Obi-Wan(Legends)
Sidious vs Maul & Savage
All had context behind them as to why the fights lasted so long or ended the way they did, is what I'm saying.
Which many people seem to ignore said context(especially the Kylo one as of late).
Originally posted by SyndicateSeeing as how she was driven into a desperate retreat and was bouncing around the walls to avoid Dooku, and the fact he demonstrated martial superiority to her previously when she had Savage backing her, I'd say not all that much longer.
All out? Sure. In pure lightsaber combat though who knows how long it would have gone on for.
Originally posted by SyndicateI think if Vader could exert a Force edge against Ahsoka he would.
Maybe. Maybe not. If Vader doesn't end up taking her out with the Force though it will have little bearing on her overall comparison to Ventress from a skill perspective. Only her actual performance against Vader will tell us that.
Originally posted by SyndicateI find it illogical given the information we have.
Which is fine but you telling me my opinion is outright wrong when we have no evidence either way is a bit ridiculous.
Originally posted by SyndicateWell then I'd ask you to provide canon Dooku feats that surpass Vader's.
In regards to my Kanan comparisons all I'm saying is what Vader's done is pretty standard. Nothing on his old level as of yet.
Originally posted by SyndicateMaybe, but even still his helmet was blown off and he was underneath rubble.
Common sense. Those machines are made to take out enemy batteries, artillery and buildings. However durable Vader's armor is I doubt it's on that level.
Originally posted by SyndicateIf it's giving Palpatine difficulties it's obviously pretty fast.
My point being we have no idea how fast it was moving.
Originally posted by SyndicatePretty sure we're comparing Canon Vader and Canon Dooku with one another.
We're not comparing canon Dooku and canon Ventress. We're comparing their Legends incarnations.
Originally posted by SyndicateVader "loosed a blast of power" that turned them into chunks, so he obviously had to have the telekinetic power to pulverize their armor, which is an extremely impressive display of power, one that eclipses what Dooku has shown, and Vader was pre-prime.
Exerting outward pressure to burst a creature is going to kill it even if its durable outer shell remains intact.
Originally posted by SyndicateI think it's third person, but no, I wouldn't claim Vader is more powerful than Sidious or Yoda, but I think that accolade is telling enough and should at the very least place him above Dooku.
This seems to be from Ren's perspective who given his fanwanking of Vader WOULD put him as the most powerful Jedi/Sith. Even if this is third person are you really going to attempt to claim canon Anakin and Vader are more powerful then Yoda and Sidious respectively?
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Seeing as how she was driven into a desperate retreat and was bouncing around the walls to avoid Dooku, and the fact he demonstrated martial superiority to her previously when she had Savage backing her, I'd say not all that much longer.I think if Vader could exert a Force edge against Ahsoka he would.
I find it illogical given the information we have.
Well then I'd ask you to provide canon Dooku feats that surpass Vader's.
Maybe, but even still his helmet was blown off and he was underneath rubble.
If it's giving Palpatine difficulties it's obviously pretty fast.
Pretty sure we're comparing Canon Vader and Canon Dooku with one another.
Vader "loosed a blast of power" that turned them into chunks, so he obviously had to have the telekinetic power to pulverize their armor, which is an extremely impressive display of power, one that eclipses what Dooku has shown, and Vader was pre-prime.
I think it's third person, but no, I wouldn't claim Vader is more powerful than Sidious or Yoda, but I think that accolade is telling enough and should at the very least place him above Dooku.
Ah, I see. YOU SAY. Obviously it must be fact then.
I think differently. Given he didn't do so to Old Ben, Luke in ESB or Kanan and Ezra in their fight it seems to me that canon Vader prefers to show his dominance over opponents in lightsaber combat.
And I find your love for Ahsoka illogical. 🙂
Why should I limit myself to canon Dooku when we're discussing Legend Ventress and her various performances?
Then he simply failed to redirect the entire power of the blast which is not a bad showing at all all things considered.
Doesn't the novel makes note at the end that Sidious was not employing his full power so as to test Vader's loyalty? 😛
Why? We're comparing Legends Ventress and Ahsoka so I see no reason to limit Dooku to his canon appearances.
First off, even if he had broken their shells that would not be superior to Dooku. Secondly I'm not a physics expert but I'm pretty sure blowing the creatures up ignores or lessens the durability of the shell. I'm no physics major though so I'll send the feat along to some of my friends on SD and get back to you with a response.
Why? Why would it NOT place him above Sidious and Yoda but above Dooku. That's a double standard. Either take it or don't.
Syndicate, are you going to bring up feats of Dooku's that are superior to Vader's or attempt to counter my Ventress arguments, or are you just going to continue responding until I get tired of you and give up? Because honestly it seems like all you've been doing is nitpicking and evading the bulk of my argument.
One thing I will address though is this:
Originally posted by SyndicateBen's power level is ambiguous, and Vader was holding back against Luke, Kanan, and Ezra, and he actually did use the Force against Luke, Kanan, and Ezra.
I think differently. Given he didn't do so to Old Ben, Luke in ESB or Kanan and Ezra in their fight it seems to me that canon Vader prefers to show his dominance over opponents in lightsaber combat.