Dragon Ball Discussion Thread

Originally posted by cdtm
When was it said Jiren can sense ki?

Originally posted by cdtm
You and Galan are in denial. There is no reason to believe Jiren held back any more then he did against Goku. It was never said Jiren can sense ki, most can't so it's not a given.

If Jiren had been attacking Roshi with the same level of power/strength he was using against SSBKK Goku, he would have undoubtedly killed(or at the VERY LEAST KO'd) Roshi... Unless you're baselessly assuming that Roshi now has the same level of durability as SSBKK Goku, lol?

Originally posted by
In the manga chapter, when Goku goes Omen, Beerus states that he "can't believe Goku beat him to acquiring Ultra Instinct." However, Beerus thought it was the real deal, but Whis ultimately notes that it's just an omen of Ultra Instinct. So once Goku unlocks the true Ultra Instinct, which we sometimes call MUI, it's confirmed in the manga that Goku will be above Beerus.

So yeah, regardless of the hype surrounding MUI, I'm at the point now where I'll only believe that MUI Goku is truly > Beerus if they *actually* fight and Goku *actually* beats him, OR we get one hell of an irrefutable statement from Beerus himself and/or Whis to that effect. /shrug

I wonder who else from the Z-fighters/U7 could briefly access a form of UI in the future, given that it's not raw powah but a technique that only experienced fighters can activate.

Also, the dubbed anime will finally be starting the ToP soon... The expedition part anyway between U7 and U9, so will at least get to hear how Toppo sounds soon when he jumps in to spar with Goku. Finally watched the rest of the Black/Zamasu arc in dub and it didn't disappoint, so will be looking forward to the ToP english voices.

Well Jiren cant sound more boring than the japanese version that is for sure.

Nt

Originally posted by Galan007
He sensed the spike in ki when Toppo started transforming into his Hakaishin state, for example. He wouldn't have been able to do that if he couldn't sense ki. 🙂

Don't be ridiculous.

If Jiren had been attacking Roshi with the same level of power/strength he was using against SSBKK Goku, he would have undoubtedly killed(or at the VERY LEAST KO'd) Roshi... Unless you're baselessly assuming that Roshi now has the same level of durability as SSBKK Goku, lol?

Not so baseless, UI clearly enhances stats across the board.

It wasn't so long ago you were saying humans can't attain UI, because power levels. *shrugs*

Except Roshi explicitly did NOT attain UI -- not even anything remotely close to the incomplete/omen version that Goku reached shortly afterward, in fact. As Whis said: the movements Roshi displayed were still "a far cry from Ultra Instinct."

That said, I don't know why you're trying to pretend like Roshi's physical stats were boosted to some significant extent here(nevermind to the levels of SSBKK Goku)..? That literally makes NO sense at all, and is wholly unsupported.

Because all versions of UI seen so far have vastly boosted Goku's speed, strength, and durability. Why wouldn't Roshi's inferior version have the same properties as the better inferior version?

This is essentially the same argument as anime Goku vs Android 17. Carver insisted up and down that Goku was holding back, until it became so obvious he was Blue+ level it couldn't be ignored anymore. Why is an incomplete form of an incomplete form known to boost stats up to ridiculous levels possibly bumping a human past the current "apex level" so hard to consider?

I'll echo Bently on his Broly comment, and only say I hope Toriyama sticks in a post tournament match between Roshi and Golden Freeza or something, where he trounces him.

Originally posted by Galan007
That literally makes NO sense at all

Welcome to DBS.

Originally posted by cdtm
Because all versions of UI seen so far have vastly boosted Goku's speed, strength, and durability. Why wouldn't Roshi's inferior version have the same properties as the better inferior version?

This is essentially the same argument as anime Goku vs Android 17. Carver insisted up and down that Goku was holding back, until it became so obvious he was Blue+ level it couldn't be ignored anymore. Why is an incomplete form of an incomplete form known to boost stats up to ridiculous levels possibly bumping a human past the current "apex level" so hard to consider?

I'll echo Bently on his Broly comment, and only say I hope Toriyama sticks in a post tournament match between Roshi and Golden Freeza or something, where he trounces him.

Heck, the entire point of that scene is that Roshi was explicitly NOT increasing his raw power against Jiren, like Goku had just done. He was using 'movements' exclusively:

Last two chapters have been pretty awful for me. Waste of Caulifla.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Last two chapters have been pretty awful for me. Waste of Caulifla.

SJW's ruin everything.

Only way to explain why Toriyama would feel obligated to push that ***** Gohan.

I didn't have access to the raw translations initially, so Toyataro's intent is well and good (in trying to establish that technique matters), but it's still a retcon of massive proportions and inconsistent with everything that has been established prior to this arc.

Ever since Goku and Piccolo fought Raditz, technique has frankly not mattered. Outside of clever tricks or deceptive maneuvers designed to catch a foe off-guard, it hasn't mattered in the least. Prior to this chapter, had Roshi tried hurling Kahseral out of the ring, Kahseral would have sat there and chuckled before finger-flicking Roshi out of the ring himself. If Roshi knew quasi-UI the whole time, Goku, Tien and King Piccolo would have gotten curbstomped in their fights with him if it gives him the ability to dodge the attacks from Jiren level foes. At very least, they would have never been able to lay a finger on him. He would've been able to compete in the 23rd tournament just fine and undoubtably been a winner. This is a dude who competed for the purpose of keeping his students motivated to keep getting stronger. If he can still beat them, no need to sit out.

Now we have him throwing punches that Jiren of all people feels the need to dodge or block with his hands (despite being perfectly willing to stand there and tank punches from SSJ Goku - in the anime anyway). Has Roshi become Kenshiro all of the sudden? Has he found a way to hit pressure points in such a way that it does not matter how strong his opponent is? Having your body independent of conscious thought is well and good, but we're talking about overcoming a speed gap that may as well be the difference between 0.1 and 99 googleplex squared. All of the technique in the world is not gonna do that, which is why "training" and "getting stronger" has been the Goku and Vegeta's method for dealing with the bad guys. Hell, if we're trying to find some semblance of consistency in this series, Burter level people should be completely invisible to Roshi ---- to the point that his body doesn't know what to react to in the first place.

Now if this chapter is Toriyama's way of acknowledging that he f-cked up the battle system in this manga by making it all about boring ass power levels, I give my blessings and hope that technique is now a permanent staple to fights. I don't have a problem with it. I think geekdom101 put it best however. Toyotaro puts the BS in DBS.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
YouTube video

Okay, now it's sunk in for me and am fine that it happened.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I didn't have access to the raw translations initially, so Toyataro's intent is well and good (in trying to establish that technique matters), but it's still a retcon of massive proportions and inconsistent with everything that has been established prior to this arc.

Ever since Goku and Piccolo fought Raditz, technique has frankly not mattered. Outside of clever tricks or deceptive maneuvers designed to catch a foe off-guard, it hasn't mattered in the least. Prior to this chapter, had Roshi tried hurling Kahseral out of the ring, Kahseral would have sat there and chuckled before finger-flicking Roshi out of the ring himself. If Roshi knew quasi-UI the whole time, Goku, Tien and King Piccolo would have gotten curbstomped in their fights with him if it gives him the ability to dodge the attacks from Jiren level foes. At very least, they would have never been able to lay a finger on him. He would've been able to compete in the 23rd tournament just fine and undoubtably been a winner. This is a dude who competed for the purpose of keeping his students motivated to keep getting stronger. If he can still beat them, no need to sit out.

Now we have him throwing punches that Jiren of all people feels the need to dodge or block with his hands (despite being perfectly willing to stand there and tank punches from SSJ Goku - in the anime anyway). Has Roshi become Kenshiro all of the sudden? Has he found a way to hit pressure points in such a way that it does not matter how strong his opponent is? Having your body independent of conscious thought is well and good, but we're talking about overcoming a speed gap that may as well be the difference between 0.1 and 99 googleplex squared. All of the technique in the world is not gonna do that, which is why "training" and "getting stronger" has been the Goku and Vegeta's method for dealing with the bad guys. Hell, if we're trying to find some semblance of consistency in this series, Burter level people should be completely invisible to Roshi ---- to the point that his body doesn't know what to react to in the first place.

Now if this chapter is Toriyama's way of acknowledging that he f-cked up the battle system in this manga by making it all about boring ass power levels, I give my blessings and hope that technique is now a permanent staple to fights. I don't have a problem with it. I think geekdom101 put it best however. Toyotaro puts the BS in DBS.

Toriyama: "If Kame Senin[Roshi] had only felt like it, he could have been roughly that strong all along... But he retired from fighting after King Piccolo."

So basically, Roshi could have always been a huge asset to the Z-Team, and likely stomped several of the Z-era baddies, but simply didn't "feel like" helping out before now, lol.

I knew Roshi still had the strongest human title under his belt. Poor Krillin tho.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I wonder who else from the Z-fighters/U7 could briefly access a form of UI in the future, given that it's not raw powah but a technique that only experienced fighters can activate.

Also, the dubbed anime will finally be starting the ToP soon... The expedition part anyway between U7 and U9, so will at least get to hear how Toppo sounds soon when he jumps in to spar with Goku. Finally watched the rest of the Black/Zamasu arc in dub and it didn't disappoint, so will be looking forward to the ToP english voices.

Well yamcha is completely self taught and could handle you despite you being trained by grandpa Hogan. He picked up the kamehameha on his own and even got the drop on kami. Is most glaring weakness through out early db and z was his pride and habit of letting his guard down prematurely. He could probably do it now that life has been nothing but humbling for almost twenty years.

Krillin is "the strongest earthling" despite having weaker showings compared to literally every other human fighter. He's also always got by by being more clever than his opponent. So he might be able to do it with proper instruction.

Then has the largest reservoir of raw power and esoteric technique, but relies too much on his powers and technique that his ability to strategize is entirely non existent. His body might be the most ready for roshi instinct, but he would have the hardest time.

Chautzu is 47 and still hasn't hit puberty. He is a lost cause.

Yajirobe would only take someone offering him a drumstick and some gravy to turn it on.

Videl...

Roshi barely beat Goku, who was stomped by Tao Pie Poe, who was below Ten, who Roshi could compete with.

So no surprise he was a lot stronger then he let on.

I'd actually buy that Roshi would've been a valid Z-fighter in Z based in what we know about him during the first part of the manga. Roshi is one stupidly experinced fighting Prodigy.

Roshi is ALWAYS training. Even when he is sitting there he is stacked with weights on him. Just like Piccolo. Piccolo is always active in training. I just think Roshi trains a little harder than most and there's no telling what he is doing off panel. He did say in DB that he can retire now since Goku is in the picture. Roshi is just a beast and I'm glad he is at the position he is currently at. Maybe he can start back training the Z fighters. It just sucks that he cant fly...lol.