Originally posted by Kazenji
Blowing things out of proportionthereit was more of a slice across his chest, There were no guts showing.
I said his gut was split open, not his guts were falling out of his body. "Gut" can also mean stomach/chest/torso area. He was wounded pretty bad and if Ant-Man hadn't jumped in, Cap might not have survived that fight.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Tbf, using Wolverine "beating" Phoenix is suspect. Phoenix > Magneto and Magneto regularly spanks Logan.
Wolverine didn't even beat the Phoenix, Jean temporarily took over and let Wolverine shank her. The Phoenix was also suffering from being influenced by Jeans feelings for Logan. Since the Phoenix could of EASILY tossed Logan far far away with TK. Or just targeted the brain inside his skull and squished it, she wouldn't need to worry about destroying adamantium if she just focused on his insides.
She also had telepathy strong enough to fend off Xavier and was even shown as able to shut off mutant powers. Anyone trying to use that encounter for anything positive for Wolverine is reaching.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Sabretooth has no feats that put him above Cap, other than his healing. And a straight hit to the face, once Logan got adamantium, was enough to KO him. And how would his "skills" make him more so? What has he done to suggest he is more skillful than either Cap or Bucky?He was totally outclassed and getting his ass kicked. He was just about to lose his head when Creed interfered. Let's not pretend like Logan had a snowball's chance in hell of beating Weapon X on his own.
Again, Wolverine was losing and even getting his regen drained when someone interfered and stuck a blade (think it was still one of Logan's lopped off claws) in S.S.'s head. So again, another fight Logan was losing before someone interfered.
The past Sentinels? More formidable than Cap or Bucky? Based on what exactly? Firing a minigun into a crowd of innocent people? Cap's easily taken out a faster, more agile flying thing, with a mounted minigun before too. And Logan is never shown battling future Sentinels (first fight he isn't even there, second one he is unconscious on a table), so we have no idea how he'd perform against them. Also, during the encounter in the past, Beast ended up taking over fighting the one sentinel while Logan went after Magneto, and in the Danger Room training he needed Colossus' assistance with the toss to decap the fake one.
He was outclassed and getting his ass kicked again throughout that entire fight, and needed to inject her with liquid adamantium to win. Which is not a factor in this match.
The only being on this list Logan beat purely by his own combat abilities was Sabretooth, and that was after he got adamantium. All the others he had help or exploited something in the environment.
Don't get me wrong. Wolverine is tough and will make Cap work for it. But the fact remains that Cap with his shield should have enough strength to knock Logan out. And he is also faster, more agile, and displays more skill. That being said, Steve would need to go for the quick KO. If this match drags on and Logan starts scoring hits, it's going to tip decidedly in his favour.
I disagree strongly with your conclusion that a shield strike would KO him. if you use his low showings.. sure, maybe. Not if you use his highs or if you average them out. If Juggs, somebody exponentially stronger with more striking power couldn't KO Wolverine, then Steve has no chance. See how that works? We do this song and dance all day, but the sound conclusion isn't that Steve would likely KO Wolverine with his shield. That isn't the logical conclusion all feats considering.
Logan Ko'd him... When? You said when he got Adamantium.. which would imply the first time they met after he got it. That would be in the streets of N.O. when he met Gambit. At no point was he KO'd then. Even when they met later at Strykers facility he wasn't KO'd. He was talking to Logan telling him to kill him and that he's finally becoming the animal he was born to be. Point is, Sabertooth was fast, agile and strong enough to get the jump on Wolverine and temp KO him. Getting the jump on Wolverine is impressive considering his senses. I'd say swinging that big tree would take a lot of strength. Even his speed was on display fighting the teleport guy.. granted he said he predicted his movement, but he still needed to execute with speed. He did so. I'd say Sabertooth with how vicious he is, healing, claws, strength and agility all make him formidable. His healing combined with the other factors make him every bit as formidable as cap and likely slightly more so.
Wrong again, watch the fight again or I'll post the video for your recollection. When they first met in the hanger... they were exchanging blows.. Wolverine was parrying strikes and landing blows. He even landed what would be a killing blow on Weapon X, only for his exceptional healing did he not die. To say he was getting his butt kick tells me you need to rewatch the fight.
Wrong again, Logan was holding his own just fine. It was a long drawn out fight with Wolverine landing blows.. tackling him 4 or 5 stories.. out maneuvering him etc etc. Again, this is somebody more formidable than Cap or Bucky and Wolverine was holding his own.
Of course we know, he lasted as long as he did surely by beating some sentinels correct. To even get to the point where most of the mutants were exterminated means he must've taken quite a few out. It had been years and years since they got Mystique's DNA to help make the sentinels adapt. Guess what, in all those years are you telling me Wolverine never met one Sentinel and beat them? Common sense and logic would dictate otherwise, and I think you'd agree with that. Besides we see him kill past sentinels and training ones...
I don't disagree with you that it would be a good fight. It would. It's my opinion that it's Wolverine's fight to lose, not the other way around.
Originally posted by Surtur
Wolverine didn't even beat the Phoenix, Jean temporarily took over and let Wolverine shank her. The Phoenix was also suffering from being influenced by Jeans feelings for Logan. Since the Phoenix could of EASILY tossed Logan far far away with TK. Or just targeted the brain inside his skull and squished it, she wouldn't need to worry about destroying adamantium if she just focused on his insides.She also had telepathy strong enough to fend off Xavier and was even shown as able to shut off mutant powers. Anyone trying to use that encounter for anything positive for Wolverine is reaching.
The phoenix was trying to kill him and failed. She tried turning him into ass numerous times and he regenerated. She was absolutely going to kill him. It's not a valid argument to say well this person didn't do this or that or else they would've won. If we viewed movie fights or Comic fights that way each and every fight would be thrown out. Not a valid stance.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The phoenix was trying to kill him and failed. She tried turning him into ass numerous times and he regenerated. She was absolutely going to kill him. It's not a valid argument to say well this person didn't do this or that or else they would've won. If we viewed movie fights or Comic fights that way each and every fight would be thrown out. Not a valid stance.
Considering Phoenix was disintigrating entire portions of the island, along with buildings, vehicles, and large groups of soldiers in seconds, saying she failed to kill him is just wrong.
Even if she didn't kill him outright, there's no reason she shouldn't have been able to take all his flesh off in an instant like she did everything else. Wolverine's HF is awesome, but it's obvious his skin/muscle tissue isn't anymore durable than normal since he's been shot with bullets, arrows, burned, etc...
Jean's love for Logan was apparently so great she killed her husband with no problem and struggled with him. So based on evidence the only reason she couldn't at least turn him into a shiny pile of bones is because Jean was holding Phoenix back against him.
Originally posted by KingD19
Considering Phoenix was disintigrating entire portions of the island, along with buildings, vehicles, and large groups of soldiers in seconds, saying she failed to kill him is just wrong.Even if she didn't kill him outright, there's no reason she shouldn't have been able to take all his flesh off in an instant like she did everything else. Wolverine's HF is awesome, but it's obvious his skin/muscle tissue isn't anymore durable than normal since he's been shot with bullets, arrows, burned, etc...
Jean's love for Logan was apparently so great she killed her husband with no problem and struggled with him. So based on evidence the only reason she couldn't at least turn him into a shiny pile of bones is because Jean was holding Phoenix back against him.
Wut??? Were you watching the same movie? Numerous people were literally turned to ash. We literally see the same effect happening to wolverine... Ash like material coming from his body and being blown away.. he just kept regenerating. We see this over and over again. The same ashy substance appears coming from his body as it appeared to look when people were disintegrated. Thus, she was trying to kill him, and he survived said attempts numerous times.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wut??? Were you watching the same movie? Numerous people were literally turned to ash. We literally see the same effect happening to wolverine... Ash like material coming from his body and being blown away.. he just kept regenerating. We see this over and over again. The same ashy substance appears coming from his body as it appeared to look when people were disintegrated. Thus, she was trying to kill him, and he survived said attempts numerous times.
Look at the part where I said "Phoenix disintegrated entire portions of the island, along with buildings, vehicles, and people." So yes we watched the same movie. Also look where I said she held back against him. Because she literally turned chunks of the island as well as vehicles and buildings into nothingness. His HF is not strong enough to overpower a force that insta-kills things on a much larger scale than him. She was holding back.
Originally posted by KingD19
Look at the part where I said "Phoenix disintegrated entire portions of the island, along with buildings, vehicles, and people." So yes we watched the same movie. Also look where I said she held back against him. Because she literally turned chunks of the island as well as vehicles and buildings into nothingness. His HF is not strong enough to overpower a force that insta-kills things on a much larger scale than him. She was holding back.
KT doesn't like movie Cap, just look at the Cap vs Legolas thread.
Originally posted by KingD19
Look at the part where I said "Phoenix disintegrated entire portions of the island, along with buildings, vehicles, and people." So yes we watched the same movie. Also look where I said she held back against him. Because she literally turned chunks of the island as well as vehicles and buildings into nothingness. His HF is not strong enough to overpower a force that insta-kills things on a much larger scale than him. She was holding back.
That is speculation on your part. We literally see the same ashy fire substance getting blown off of him as his fighting forward. The substance appears to be exactly the same as when we see people turned to ash. I refuse to believe she wasn't trying to kill him in that scene, and the evidence supports my conclusion. There is no getting around this fact. Now, of course Phoenix could've done different things to beat Logan and for whatever reason didn't. I'm not arguing that she couldn't have done other stuff. I'm simply dismissing the notion that she didn't try and kill him. She did, and failed.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That is speculation on your part. We literally see the same ashy fire substance getting blown off of him as his fighting forward. The substance appears to be exactly the same as when we see people turned to ash. I refuse to believe she wasn't trying to kill him in that scene, and the evidence supports my conclusion. There is no getting around this fact. Now, of course Phoenix could've done different things to beat Logan and for whatever reason didn't. I'm not arguing that she couldn't have done other stuff. I'm simply dismissing the notion that she didn't try and kill him. She did, and failed.
So you're saying you believe Logan's HF which takes a few seconds to heal bullet wounds and isn't strong enough to retain his memories is so powerful it can stave off instant disintegration of such magnitude it was destroying hundreds of thousands of tons of debris because it was killing an island?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I disagree strongly with your conclusion that a shield strike would KO him. if you use his low showings.. sure, maybe. Not if you use his highs or if you average them out. If Juggs, somebody exponentially stronger with more striking power couldn't KO Wolverine, then Steve has no chance. See how that works? We do this song and dance all day, but the sound conclusion isn't that Steve would likely KO Wolverine with his shield. That isn't the logical conclusion all feats considering.
If we "even" things out as you say, Steve most definitely has enough strength to KO him. Using one showing against Juggs and disregarding consistent showings of him getting KO'd by less is not evening things out. Wolverine has been KO'd multiple times by forces less than Steve can exert. And multiple times = consistent showings, not low ends.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Logan Ko'd him... When? You said when he got Adamantium.. which would imply the first time they met after he got it. That would be in the streets of N.O. when he met Gambit. At no point was he KO'd then. Even when they met later at Strykers facility he wasn't KO'd. He was talking to Logan telling him to kill him and that he's finally becoming the animal he was born to be. Point is, Sabertooth was fast, agile and strong enough to get the jump on Wolverine and temp KO him. Getting the jump on Wolverine is impressive considering his senses. I'd say swinging that big tree would take a lot of strength. Even his speed was on display fighting the teleport guy.. granted he said he predicted his movement, but he still needed to execute with speed. He did so. I'd say Sabertooth with how vicious he is, healing, claws, strength and agility all make him formidable. His healing combined with the other factors make him every bit as formidable as cap and likely slightly more so.
Re-watch the movie, and so not the implication I was making. There was one, but it is that Logan needed the adamantium upgrade to beat Creed, considering Creed kicked his ass before that. Not that he KO'd him the first time they fought after he got it.
Logan knocks his ass out during their second fight, after tackling him through a window, while they are at the Weapon X facility. He delivers a straight blow and knocks Creed out. We literally get shown it happening. Or is a guy lying there unconscious and unmoving after getting punched in the face no longer a KO?
I asked you why you said his "skills" make him more so and asked you to show evidence of him being more skilled than Cap or Bucky. Because you listed skills as one of the reasons you believe him to be more formidable. And you did not do that.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wrong again, watch the fight again or I'll post the video for your recollection. When they first met in the hanger... they were exchanging blows.. Wolverine was parrying strikes and landing blows. He even landed what would be a killing blow on Weapon X, only for his exceptional healing did he not die. To say he was getting his butt kick tells me you need to rewatch the fight.
No one ever said Logan didn't land a hit. Please quote me where I said he never landed a hit, and then you can call me wrong. Logan was landing a few blows here and there, but overall Weapon X was dominating him. And again, Logan would have lost without assistance. He did not beat Weapon X one-on-one, which is what people asked you to post feats for.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wrong again, Logan was holding his own just fine. It was a long drawn out fight with Wolverine landing blows.. tackling him 4 or 5 stories.. out maneuvering him etc etc. Again, this is somebody more formidable than Cap or Bucky and Wolverine was holding his own.
No he wasn't. He was literally being killed until someone interfered. And the only impressive thing about SS was his swords. People asked you to post fights where Wolverine beat people above Cap in the various areas listed. Not land some hits before almost getting killed, only to have someone else aid him.
Honestly, I find it astounding how you won't acknowledge that Cap was keeping up with and holding his own against Ultron, in other threads, when he fought him for an extended period of time, took all his hits and blasts, and was still standing and fighting when Ultron left, but you use two examples of fights where Logan would have died without help to claim he was "holding his own".
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Of course we know, he lasted as long as he did surely by beating some sentinels correct. To even get to the point where most of the mutants were exterminated means he must've taken quite a few out. It had been years and years since they got Mystique's DNA to help make the sentinels adapt. Guess what, in all those years are you telling me Wolverine never met one Sentinel and beat them? Common sense and logic would dictate otherwise, and I think you'd agree with that. Besides we see him kill past sentinels and training ones...
So you are making things up with zero onscreen proof to back it? Gotcha. Until we have actual proof that Logan can beat a future sentinel one-on-one, all it is is your wishful thinking. And please, we both know that beating a past sentinel doesn't mean anything compared to the future ones. Not to mention when we actually see him fight one in the past he gets knocked on his ass and then Beast jumps in.
We can't just invent feats based on what we think might have been the case. Or anyone on Cap's side can start inventing feats of things he might have done in between movies, while working for SHIELD.
Your initial post was that Wolverine has beaten better people than Cap, to which Froth asked you to post examples. The only person you listed who Logan beat legitimately, on his own, through sheer skill and ability, is Creed, and he has no feats putting anything except his healing above Cap's.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I don't disagree with you that it would be a good fight. It would. It's my opinion that it's Wolverine's fight to lose, not the other way around.
Well, guess we are disagreeing on who holds the advantage. Because Cap has all the stat advantages other than healing, and healing is only going to become a factor (get it? 😆 ) if the match gets drawn out.
jean basically took over what she could from the phoenix to stop any K'O hits on the jackman. she controlled the power for long enough to ay good bye to hugh and he killed her.
magneto was thrashing wolverine around because (and this will come as a shock) wolverine is covered in metal and magneto can.... wait for it... control metal and magnetif fields. diffrent to jeans power but he is similar in throwing ability... providing there is an adiquete metal source