Cap vs Ozymandias Redo

Originally posted by Inhuman
When the watchmen actually faced some one with legit super powers like Ozy (probably a bit below cap level), they got stomped.
So if they were "superhuman" they wouldn't have been toyed with and owned so easy. And its not like Ozy is like leagues above a peak human. Like I said he would be a bit below Cap in my book.

So that scene played out like it should. A person who was super powered(ozy) (even though its on the lower tier of super powered folk) , manhandles very skilled but ultimately human foes.
So to answer your question, when the watchmen actually pushed themselves with someone who was actually above human, they didnt fare so well.
why? because they were just regular humans. Very skilled humans, but just humans.

You didn't quote most of my post because of the implications it makes and shows. One might think Kit fisto is just as fast.. just as powerful as Anakin because it shows him killing Stormtroopers with just as much ease... seemingly moving his saber just as fast.. seemingly the same pre cog.... If we only went by how it looked... we could draw such a conclusion. Yet we know Fisto is below Anakin in virtually every way. How something appears on screen can be greatly influenced by creative design.. budget... fight choreography etc etc. No BW shouldn't be able to do as well as they did or what they did.

Ozymandias' greatest feats of strength:

-Picking up and throwing a 220+ lbs guy through plate-glass

-Kicking a 160ish lbs guy like a soccer ball

-Jumping 20ish feet

While very impressive and super-human, I don't see that being enough to put down Cap who has taken hits from Ultron; who was at one point was trading punches with Thor; who at one point was trading punches with Hulk; who at one point destroyed a Leviathan ship with a punch.

That analogy kinda falls short there rob, you can't powerscale like that with totally opposite characters and abilities. I get the point you were making, and while true, I just don't think it can be made that way. It implies Cap can keep up with Ultron, Thor or Hulk, and we all know that isn't true. The reality is, Ozy dealt with super humans easier than Cap did, Ozy dealt with normal trained humans easier than Cap did. Those are the comparable feats. My concern is Cap's durability and strength to some degree, but most durability. I'm not entirely convinced ozy could hurt him enough for consistent wins. Just not sure about that. Skills and speed I'm very sure Ozy is his superior

Originally posted by Robtard
Ozymandias' greatest feats of strength:

-Picking up and throwing a 220+ lbs guy through plate-glass

-Kicking a 160ish lbs guy like a soccer ball

-Jumping 20ish feet

While very impressive and super-human, I don't see that being enough to put down Cap who has taken hits from Ultron; who was at one point was trading punches with Thor; who at one point was trading punches with Hulk; who at one point destroyed a Leviathan ship with a punch.

The funny/sad thing is that Cap either matches or beats all those feats in his first movie and he's only gotten better since then and yet some people still seem to think that either Cap is only very slightly stronger or that Ozy still has the edge.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That analogy kinda falls short there rob, you can't powerscale like that with totally opposite characters and abilities. I get the point you were making, and while true, I just don't think it can be made that way. It implies Cap can keep up with Ultron, Thor or Hulk, and we all know that isn't true. The reality is, Ozy dealt with super humans easier than Cap did, Ozy dealt with normal trained humans easier than Cap did. Those are the comparable feats. My concern is Cap's durability and strength to some degree, but most durability. I'm not entirely convinced ozy could hurt him enough for consistent wins. Just not sure about that. Skills and speed I'm very sure Ozy is his superior

Except of course Cap did keep up with Ultron, if only momentarily. See: Avengers: AOU. There's no implying, it was shown.

I also reject your "Ozy dealt with super-humans more easily". The Chitauri ground troops were super-human in states. Proof: strong enough to claw/climb into buildings is "super-human." Cap was tearing through them. Also see above: Ultron is clearly super-duper human in stats.

Originally posted by Robtard
Except of course Cap did keep up with Ultron, if only momentarily. See: Avengers: AOU. There's no implying, it was shown.

I also reject your "Ozy dealt with super-humans more easily". The Chitauri ground troops were super-human in states. Proof: strong enough to claw/climb into buildings is "super-human." Cap was tearing through them. Also see above: Ultron is clearly super-duper human in stats.

That isn't how we use the term "keeping up with someone" though. Momentarily keeping up with someone is just that, momentarily. I could face Mike Tyson in his prime, and actually try and get off first and land the first blow. I could do so, and thus be, as you describe keeping up with him. Even though 1 second later I was KTFO. That isn't me keeping up with him. In order for me to call it that, I would have to keep up with him for a few rounds... maybe even half the fight. Losing most of the time but having my moments. That isn't what happened with Ultron and Cap... he was outclassed and this was made obvious. The Chitauri have no h2h feats to speak of though. They did virtually nothing in this area. To try and extrapolate that someone they'd also be prodigious h2h combats it's taking the slipper slope a bit too far. They honestly weren't impressive in that regard imo. So my feeling that Ozy did better against super humans seems to be more true than not. Not to say Cap doesn't have good showings as well, it just wasn't done with the ease Ozy did it with, and I think you can at least agree on that point for whatever it's worth

Originally posted by Robtard
Except of course Cap did keep up with Ultron, if only momentarily. See: Avengers: AOU. There's no implying, it was shown.

I also reject your "Ozy dealt with super-humans more easily". The Chitauri ground troops were super-human in states. Proof: strong enough to claw/climb into buildings is "super-human." Cap was tearing through them. Also see above: Ultron is clearly super-duper human in stats.

Don't forget the Ultron bots he was literally tearing apart with his bare hands in some instances, who themselves were busting out through rock, concrete etc. when they first attacked during the final battle. Hell, Maria Hill unloaded with her pistol into one, hitting it multiple times, and it did nothing to the drone. Fury had to split its head open to kill it. Just because the Avengers handled the drones well doesn't mean they were weak. They were clearly still stronger, more durable etc. than any human opponent would be.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The funny/sad thing is that Cap either matches or beats all those feats in his first movie and he's only gotten better since then and yet some people still seem to think that either Cap is only very slightly stronger or that Ozy still has the edge.

Question, do you believe Cap is just as skilled as Ozy

Do you believe Cap is as fast s Ozy?

Doesn't mean you believe he wins, I'm just curious if you think Cap is his superior in these areas

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That isn't how we use the term "keeping up with someone" though. Momentarily keeping up with someone is just that, momentarily. I could face Mike Tyson in his prime, and actually try and get off first and land the first blow. I could do so, and thus be, as you describe keeping up with him. Even though 1 second later I was KTFO. That isn't me keeping up with him. In order for me to call it that, I would have to keep up with him for a few rounds... maybe even half the fight. Losing most of the time but having my moments. That isn't what happened with Ultron and Cap... he was outclassed and this was made obvious. The Chitauri have no h2h feats to speak of though. They did virtually nothing in this area. To try and extrapolate that someone they'd also be prodigious h2h combats it's taking the slipper slope a bit too far. They honestly weren't impressive in that regard imo. So my feeling that Ozy did better against super humans seems to be more true than not. Not to say Cap doesn't have good showings as well, it just wasn't done with the ease Ozy did it with, and I think you can at least agree on that point for whatever it's worth

LoL, no. Mike Tyson (even now) would floor you with one punch; the first and only punch of the match and that would be the end of it; that is far different than what happened in the Cap Vs Ultron fight. Cap traded blows and held his own, if even for a short time. Considering how powerful Ultron was, that is extremely impressive showing for Cap. not a negative.

Your down playing of Cap is getting outright ridiculous now.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You didn't quote most of my post because of the implications it makes and shows. One might think Kit fisto is just as fast.. just as powerful as Anakin because it shows him killing Stormtroopers with just as much ease... seemingly moving his saber just as fast.. seemingly the same pre cog.... If we only went by how it looked... we could draw such a conclusion. Yet we know Fisto is below Anakin in virtually every way. How something appears on screen can be greatly influenced by creative design.. budget... fight choreography etc etc.

I knew what you were trying to say. Thats why i responded with what i did.
You are trying to say there are different levels to above peak human, etc. i get it.
But if Ozy is a bit over peak human and cap is now well over peak human, you are saying the watchmen are above peak human, but below ozy?
If we get into unlimited tiers it gets ridiculous.

Just for the sake of the argument lets say if you can lift 800 pounds youre are peak human.
what im saying is that above human:

tier 1 is like 800-1000
tier 2 1000 to 1500
tier 3 1500 to 2000
tier 4 2000 to 3000
etc

what you are trying to say is like..

tier 1 is 801
tier 2 is 802
tier 3 is 803
tier 4 is 804

and so forth.

this is probably not a great example but I hope you get what im trying to say. im short for time atm.
Anyhow, if we go by that lenient scale then very FEW actions stars would be considered normal. mostly all of them would be superhuman to you.

Anyhow can you explain what makes you think that the watchmen(sans. oxy and dr.m) were superhuman? Not just very skilled humans.

No BW shouldn't be able to do as well as they did or what they did.

Also do you think Black Widow is super human?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Question, do you believe Cap is just as skilled as Ozy

Do you believe Cap is as fast s Ozy?

Doesn't mean you believe he wins, I'm just curious if you think Cap is his superior in these areas

Judging by Ozy's actual fights, I don't think he has enough of an edge in either to make up for Cap's massive strength and durability edge.

Let me see here. Ozy beat up the Comedian who was pretty skilled (Not close to Batroc skilled in my opinion, but still pretty skilled), Nite-Owl (who beat up a few prison and alley thugs with help), and Rorschach (who got captured by 6 or so city cops). Hell Cap did better then that just in the elevator fighting the dozen or so trained shield agents that were using advanced weapons.

I really cant see any way possible for Ozy to win this fight unless he plans for it, and that's even without the shield.

Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, no. Mike Tyson (even now) would floor you with one punch; the first and only punch of the match and that would be the end of it; that is far different than what happened in the Cap Vs Ultron fight. Cap traded blows and held his own, if even for a short time. Considering how powerful Ultron was, that is extremely impressive showing for Cap. not a negative.

Your down playing of Cap is getting outright ridiculous now.

Of course he would and he'd KO me... but that doesn't change me being able to throw the first punch and land it maybe and thus go.. according to your line of logic.. "I kept up with him" even momentarily. That is my problem and what we are discussing here. Cap didn't keep up with Ultron. When something is momentary or fleeting.. the correct term isn't keeping up with them. That implies a level of parity.. and spirited competitive fight. His fight with Ultron was anything but that is my point

Ultron would have easily killed Ozy.

Originally posted by tkitna
Let me see here. Ozy beat up the Comedian who was pretty skilled (Not close to Batroc skilled in my opinion, but still pretty skilled), Nite-Owl (who beat up a few prison and alley thugs with help), and Rorschach (who got captured by 6 or so city cops). Hell Cap did better then that just in the elevator fighting the dozen or so trained shield agents that were using advanced weapons.

I really cant see any way possible for Ozy to win this fight unless he plans for it, and that's even without the shield.

No cap didn't, he did worse against normal humans or peak humans than Ozy did is the point. Imagine how Cap was stabbed twice by normal humans. Can you even imagine that being done to ozy? I can't, not for a second. It wasn't that the watchman were OMGZORZ unbelievable!! It was the utmost ease in which he handled them. They didn't even land a single blow. Yet we have normal well trained humans having little to no issue landing on Cap multiple times. THAT is the difference in skill I'm speaking of, and it's very clear.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Of course he would and he'd KO me... but that doesn't change me being able to throw the first punch and land it maybe and thus go.. according to your line of logic.. "I kept up with him" even momentarily. That is my problem and what we are discussing here. Cap didn't keep up with Ultron. When something is momentary or fleeting.. the correct term is keeping up with them. That implies a level of parity.. and spirited competitive fight. His fight with Ultron was anything but that is my point

You're using a very inaccurate analogy: You're comparing a fight were one opponent throws one punch before being KO'd Vs a fight were one opponent is capable of exchanging blows and hanging for a short length of time.

Cap clearly did more than "just throw a punch" figuratively speaking with his fight with Ultron. He factually held his own for a bit, exchanged attacks and even managed to damage Ultron. That's a plus for Cap, all things considered.

What you're doing is called downplaying. Stop it.

Originally posted by Inhuman
I knew what you were trying to say. Thats why i responded with what i did.
You are trying to say there are different levels to above peak human, etc. i get it.
But if Ozy is a bit over peak human and cap is now well over peak human, you are saying the watchmen are above peak human, but below ozy?
If we get into unlimited tiers it gets ridiculous.

Just for the sake of the argument lets say if you can lift 800 pounds youre are peak human.
what im saying is that above human:

tier 1 is like 800-1000
tier 2 1000 to 1500
tier 3 1500 to 2000
tier 4 2000 to 3000
etc

what you are trying to say is like..

tier 1 is 801
tier 2 is 802
tier 3 is 803
tier 4 is 804

and so forth.

this is probably not a great example but I hope you get what im trying to say. im short for time atm.
Anyhow, if we go by that lenient scale then very FEW actions stars would be considered normal. mostly all of them would be superhuman to you.

Anyhow can you explain what makes you think that the watchmen(sans. oxy and dr.m) were superhuman? Not just very skilled humans.

Also do you think Black Widow is super human?

Originally posted by Robtard
You're using a very inaccurate analogy: You're comparing a fight were one opponent throws one punch before being KO'd Vs a fight were one opponent is capable of exchanging blows and hanging for a short length of time.

Cap clearly did more than "just throw a punch" figuratively speaking with his fight with Ultron. He factually held his own for a bit and even managed to damage Ultron. That's a plus for Cap, all things considered.

What you're doing is called downplaying.

I get what you're saying, and it's a plus for Cap. no argument there. My only concern was with your use of the term "keep up with ultron" and then add momentarily to cover your bases. That could be used for so many things can't be describe as keeping up. For example.. the jaguars could keep in close in the first quarter against the packers and be only down 14 to 3.. and we could say they are keeping up with them. however, when the final score is 35 to 9... We wouldn't use the term keep up with them. Adding momentarily to it to try and make it correct doesn't change the use of the term "keep up with them" I would be 100% factual to say I kept up with Mike Tyson momentarily. Because I did. I landed a blow on him. However, that wouldn't be an accurate description of the fight or that I kept up with him. Same thing here.. Ultron clearly and decisively outclassed Cap and it was obvious he could never "keep up with him" . That is the point. Not trying to downplay Cap's feat, because it's good. His feats are getting better and better. That is why I'm hesitant about giving Ozy the win because of this increase in feats for Cap and his durability. Again, no issue with anybody picking Cap, I get it, I just wouldn't describe him as keeping up with Ultron is all.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No cap didn't, he did worse against normal humans or peak humans than Ozy did is the point. Imagine how Cap was stabbed twice by normal humans. Can you even imagine that being done to ozy? I can't, not for a second. It wasn't that the watchman were OMGZORZ unbelievable!! It was the utmost ease in which he handled them. They didn't even land a single blow. Yet we have normal well trained humans having little to no issue landing on Cap multiple times. THAT is the difference in skill I'm speaking of, and it's very clear.

Lol. Do you think Rorschach and Nite-Owl would hit Cap if he didn't want to be hit? The only difference between their fight with Ozy and a fight with Cap is that Cap could have killed either one with a single blow and I don't believe Ozy could do the same.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I get what you're saying, and it's a plus for Cap. no argument there. My only concern was with your use of the term "keep up with ultron" and then add momentarily to cover your bases. That could be used for so many things can't be describe as keeping up. For example.. the jaguars could keep in close in the first quarter against the packers and be only down 14 to 3.. and we could say they are keeping up with them. however, when the final score is 35 to 9... We wouldn't use the term keep up with them. Adding momentarily to it to try and make it correct doesn't change the use of the term "keep up with them" I would be 100% factual to say I kept up with Mike Tyson momentarily. Because I did. I landed a blow on him. However, that wouldn't be an accurate description of the fight or that I kept up with him. Same thing here.. Ultron clearly and decisively outclassed Cap and it was obvious he could never "keep up with him" . That is the point. Not trying to downplay Cap's feat, because it's good. His feats are getting better and better. That is why I'm hesitant about giving Ozy the win because of this increase in feats for Cap and his durability. Again, no issue with anybody picking Cap, I get it, I just wouldn't describe him as keeping up with Ultron is all.

Actually, I said "Except of course Cap did keep up with Ultron, if only momentarily." (look above) from the start, I didn't amend in "momentarily" to "cover my bases. Trading blows and managing to damage your opponent is exactly that, if only momentarily.

Again, your "one punch" analogy doesn't fit with what Cap factually did with Ultron.

You know Cap takes this, after AoU it's above and beyond evident. Just say it, you'll feel better.