Kenobi and Dooku vs Sidious and Anakin -- Sabers Only

Originally posted by Lord Stark
3-4 seconds?

Dooku would last at least 30 seconds against Sidious.

I agree. He lasted a very long time against Yoda so Sidious couldn't just outright take him out. I'd say with no holding back I'd give Dooku at a Maximum of 2minutes against Sidious. If Maul can survive for that long against Sidious, ( someone I believe to be weaker than Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat ) and Dooku can last an entire duel vs. Yoda I have no doubt that Sidious mixing his styles, Dooku would last at max 2minutes.

EmperorSidious2: Revan vs Qui-Gon Jinn?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
EmperorSidious2: Revan vs Qui-Gon Jinn?

Revan. Qui hon is to with the force and not trying to use it as an aggressive tool. In lightsaber so I would give it to Revan as he's more diverse and may actually be pretty good.

In the force I'd give. The edge to Revan as he did go up against the vitiate and also is regarded as a powerful force weilder. However I believe most of his power is fan made but, but he is still a good duelist and powerful force weilder.

Overall Revan.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I agree. He lasted a very long time against Yoda so Sidious couldn't just outright take him out. I'd say with no holding back I'd give Dooku at a Maximum of 2minutes against Sidious. If Maul can survive for that long against Sidious, ( someone I believe to be weaker than Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat ) and Dooku can last an entire duel vs. Yoda I have no doubt that Sidious mixing his styles, Dooku would last at max 2minutes.

I might even go longer TBH. Not Obi v Vader on Mustafar long, but perhaps 5 minutes or a bit more. Only because Sidious was clearly not on Yoda's level in sabers (else he wouldn't have resorted to high ground and the force). Dooku retreated against Yoda as well, so all we know about both is that they can each hold their own against Yoda for a (short) time.

If Yoda is a 10 and Sidious is a 9.5, I'd give Dooku like a 9.4 in sabers.

Team 2 definitely has the advantage, but it's not totally clear cut. The main issue for team 1 is that Kenobi probably takes too long against Anakin to go help Dooku beat Sidious. Or, Anakin wins and slices Dooku while he's straining himself against Sidious.

So it all depends on whether you think Kenobi could find some way to Soresu himself to a victory against Anakin before Dooku falls to Sidious. People say Anakin would do better against Obi Wan than Vader did, but remember it's unlikely he'd get the "Zone" buff fighting Kenobi, and he never really used the dark side effectively otherwise as Anakin. It's definitely a long shot. Probably 8/10 a victory for team 2, but not impossible for team 1 if certain stars align.

Originally posted by Selenial
Then please explain why he didn't once attack with the force, or why multiple sources state he was holding back.

Hell, he was even (according to the insider) being reckless against Dooku, putting himself at too much risk, as they say he couldn't dare risk going that speed against Palpatine who could easily counter and capitalise on those mistakes.

Could be many reasons. Could be because attacking Dooku with Force wouldn't work. Could be because lightsaber is a more effective way, Dooku even said that the contest will be decided by lightsaber, Yoda did not disagree. Or Yoda simply did not see suitable opportunity to attack with Force. During duel Yoda has to direct Force effort at keeping him fast, strong and agile, which prevents him from generating strong Force attack during mid combat.

Anyway, the fact that Yoda did not attack Dooku with Force means nothing, you can't use it as an excuse to prove anything. In most fights characters choose not to attack with Force or rarely use it. Maul did not use Force against Qui-Gon. Sidious and Windu did not use Force against each other during duel. Anakin and Dooku did not use Force against each other in RotS either.

Show me those sources. I haven't seen a single one.

Originally posted by Hero of Python
I might even go longer TBH. Not Obi v Vader on Mustafar long, but perhaps 5 minutes or a bit more. Only because Sidious was clearly not on Yoda's level in sabers (else he wouldn't have resorted to high ground and the force). Dooku retreated against Yoda as well, so all we know about both is that they can each hold their own against Yoda for a (short) time.

If Yoda is a 10 and Sidious is a 9.5, I'd give Dooku like a 9.4 in sabers.

Team 2 definitely has the advantage, but it's not totally clear cut. The main issue for team 1 is that Kenobi probably takes too long against Anakin to go help Dooku beat Sidious. Or, Anakin wins and slices Dooku while he's straining himself against Sidious.

So it all depends on whether you think Kenobi could find some way to Soresu himself to a victory against Anakin before Dooku falls to Sidious. People say Anakin would do better against Obi Wan than Vader did, but remember it's unlikely he'd get the "Zone" buff fighting Kenobi, and he never really used the dark side effectively otherwise as Anakin. It's definitely a long shot. Probably 8/10 a victory for team 2, but not impossible for team 1 if certain stars align.

1. The battle ground that they were fighting in during sabers were against sidious. So if sidious can hold off yoda while in that position he can definitely do better if in an open space. So if yoda is a 10 so to if sidious. The movie puts them as equals if they were in an open field or more balanced location. Dooku would definitely be below sidious as a duelist. If yoda is a 10, sidious is also a 10 and Dooku is an 8 or 8.5, or even a nine but I'd go with an 8 as yoda was able to handle Dooku with little effort. So if say that Dooku will get beaten but not in such a short time.

2. Anakin is actually the better duelist. So if anakin plays smart this time he would be able to defeat kenobi quicker than he did in mustafar and also actually win instead of losing. Kenobi would basically not help Dooku in the slightest. Since kenobi would basically just be defending and not pushing anakin while sidious is about to kill Dooku.

3. Sidious can solo this.

Anakin's contribution, or lack thereof, is meaningless till team 1 can prove they can take Sidious by himself. As far as I can tell, they can't.

Dooku lasting 5 minutes against Sidious?

tf?

Originally posted by Trocity
Dooku lasting 5 minutes against Sidious?

tf?

It's not that unimaginable given Dooku's feats. We're only talking sabers here...Sids is great but he's not going to plow over one of the best swordsmen of all time like he did Fisto or Tinn (and he was using Force Speed then anyways).

To me, "sabers only" means literally sabers only. So skill and prowess with a blade. They aren't enhanced by their force powers in the slightest, other than what it takes to properly control a lightsaber without dismembering themselves. So based on their technical abilities alone, I wouldn't be surprised if the Count could hold off Sidious for 5 minutes.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Anakin's contribution, or lack thereof, is meaningless till team 1 can prove they can take Sidious by himself. As far as I can tell, they can't.

Based on technical ability alone, two Jedi who are the masters of makashi and soresu (respectively), will be enough to beat any single opponent in sabers only. It's just too much. Sidious might take one but he'd be too tired to kill the second.

Do you guys see what I'm saying here? Of course Sidious would solo with access to his force reserves. But this fight is based only on what they can do with their blades...no force amps/hacks of any kind allowed.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2

Dooku would definitely be below sidious as a duelist.

Is he though? Has that been proven in some source that I missed?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2

but I'd go with an 8 as yoda was able to handle Dooku with little effort.

Where are you getting "little effort" from? Yoda was jumping all over the place and was left exhausted (according to the AOTC Novel).

Force Augmentation (including Force Speed) is typically included in sabers only.

If you wanted to make it a truly Forceless duel, you'd have to set the battle on Myrkr or something like it. Or say 'in a Ysalimiri arena' or something like that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Is he though? Has that been proven in some source that I missed?

Yoda vs Dooku. In the novel and movie yoda was the clear winner.

Where are you getting "little effort" from? Yoda was jumping all over the place and was left exhausted (according to the AOTC Novel).

Little effort was definitely the wrong pair of words. Sidious will have to put his back into it. I've never read the novel, but from what I've heard Dooku could not even pierce his defense and was actually becoming very tired. Movies are the ultimate source and yoda was ready to continue the fight with Dooku running.

Dooku can last as long as he did against yoda in their duel possibly a little bit longer as he wasn't in his prime as much yet. So I give Dooku 2 minutes and 45 seconds.

It's ok, DP's hatred of Sidious is as mythic as his hatred of Kit Fisto and the B-Team. In his head-canon, Sidious was only the master because Dooku let him be. He only allowed himself to get throttled like a licentious whore tbh. Dooku was in control the whole time, really.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Kenobi beat Dooku...

When did Kenobi beat Dooku?

Yeah, I'm gonna have to call Citation Needed on Kenobi beating Dooku. Kenobi generally gets hosed.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Force Augmentation (including Force Speed) is typically included in sabers only.

If you wanted to make it a truly Forceless duel, you'd have to set the battle on Myrkr or something like it. Or say 'in a Ysalimiri arena' or something like that.

Yeah I figured, it's my fault for assuming my interpretation was correct. Will note for the future.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Little effort was definitely the wrong pair of words. Sidious will have to put his back into it. I've never read the novel, but from what I've heard Dooku could not even pierce his defense and was actually becoming very tired. Movies are the ultimate source and yoda was ready to continue the fight with Dooku running.

I'm running into speculation here but does the fact that Dooku just finished fighting against two Jedi give him any sort of handicap against Yoda? True he dispatched Obi-Wan in thirty seconds max (depending on how the edits were cut), but Anakin made him work for it. He was already an old man so I wouldn't be surprised if that cut his force reserves/stamina by 25-30%.

Originally posted by Hero of Python
I'm running into speculation here but does the fact that Dooku just finished fighting against two Jedi give him any sort of handicap against Yoda? True he dispatched Obi-Wan in thirty seconds max (depending on how the edits were cut), but Anakin made him work for it. He was already an old man so I wouldn't be surprised if that cut his force reserves/stamina by 25-30%.

Ok if you look at what happened I can see it both ways. He did look tired however when he turned around he looked just fine. The he was the one who challenged yoda to a lightsaber duel. However they fought again and Dooku had a huge amp. So with that yoda is still better as he defeated him so Dooku is less than sidious and yoda.