Savage Opress vs. Darth Malgus (Hope)

Started by SIDIOUS 6610 pages

Originally posted by Sinious
In Return, Malgus was mostly dependent on his strength against Darach. At least that's what I saw from their fight. In hope, he was fighting less dependent on strength and more with skill. Satele was holding her staff with one hand and still managed to push Malgus back when she was Tk'ing the tree. It seems like he defeated someone against who he has no strength advantage. He also has a more proper training compared to Savage imo. Maul even admits that Savage has been trained to be an expendable reckless monster and lacked the discipline of a true sith.

Savage tanking Malgus' lightning cause he tanked Dooku's is an argument I can respect but the blaster thing has nothing to do with lightning. You yourself said that the whole blaster tanking thing might very well be due to his armor and while it may help him survive the lightning attack, it won't help him stand his ground in a fight.

Have you seen Dooku lowballing from me or are you referring to someone else? As I said before, Dooku's lightning is vastly superior to Malgus at this point. However since he has proven to be capable of bringing Savage down to his knees without any trouble while fighting Ventress, Malgus could do the same. It wouldn't open up holes in his body but it would bring him down to his knees and unlike Dooku, Malgus has the luxury to pour more and more lightning on him until he gets the chance to cut him down with his saber.

Maul planned on fighting Sidious before Savage's death? How so?

I agree that Savage's display of power in rage mode is superior, but I strongly disagree with the notion of Malgus' lightning making Savage stronger.

I was referring to Neph. That's why I accepted the notion as being a possibility from you and not him.

Anyway, Plo, from what I seen, adapted to Savage's strength and yet couldn't get the upper hand via skill. Again, Savage isn't saber master material in terms of strict skill, but you'd have to be Dooku level for it to make a huge difference, and Malgus isn't Dooku level. Satele holding Malgus off with one arm, isn't exactly helping your argument. Grievous has struck through armored mandalorians, dented a ship by punching it, etc, and yet comparing his performance against the same opponents, it's easy to establish Savage has his clear superior in strength. Ventress, herself, has crushed metal comlinks just by gripping it with her hand, and has struck jedi into unconsciousness via physical attacks, and yet her physical attacks couldn't even tickle Savage; on the contrary, she was completely ragdolled by him (Ventress's durability should also be noted: she's been knocked through massive walls). The people Savage has overpowered via strength have better strength showings than the ones Malgus has overpowered. Standard Anakin is probably on par with Malgus in strength, yet Savage has even pressed him back with his strength. As pointed out, Savage was punching holes through stone walls before his amp by Talzin.

The blaster bolt argument is more than sufficient for my case. Your argument is hinging on the damage, and as pointed out numerous times, is damage Savage can walk through. Again, why would Malgus's lightning damage him more than multiple blaster bolts? Because it's lightning? I think you're underestimating blaster bolts considerably, when, in fact, they've shown to be more lethal than most lightning. How many force users have you seen walk through blaster bolts? Even Dooku level didn't take his chances against them. I've seen the notion about Savage's armor brought up, but never a source. I also think you're underestimating the amount of power Dooku was dishing out against Savage. He was expending enough energy that he was unable to easily take Ventress out, when he otherwise could. Consider his one on one with Ventress; she barely managed to clash with him for a few seconds before succumbing to his power. And like I said, this is Savage at his peak, and the more powerful he became, he's been shown to take more damage, with Dooku's last lightning attack being the moment Savage discovered where his true power comes from: anger/rage. So a protracted lightning attack could result in Savage choking Malgus out. That's more probable than Malgus just downing him with it and then walking up and cutting his head off. Savage stood completely up and lifting heavy obelisks while being attacked by a prolonged lightning attack. Pain feeds his anger, which peak Savage learned to utilize more effectively.

If Malgus can win, it will be because of his lightning. Savage, at this point, is Malgus's clear superior in just about everything else.

SOD, Maul's conversation with Talzin confirmed he intended to draw Sidious away from Coruscant.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I was referring to Neph. That's why I accepted the notion as being a possibility from you and not him.

Ah I see.

Anyway, Plo, from what I seen, adapted to Savage's strength and yet couldn't get the upper hand via skill. Again, Savage isn't saber master material in terms of strict skill, but you'd have to be Dooku level for it to make a huge difference, and Malgus isn't Dooku level. Satele holding Malgus off with one arm, isn't exactly helping your argument. Grievous has struck through armored mandalorians, dented a ship by punching it, etc, and yet comparing his performance against the same opponents, it's easy to establish Savage has his clear superior in strength. Ventress, herself, has crushed metal comlinks just by gripping it with her hand, and has struck jedi into unconsciousness via physical attacks, and yet her physical attacks couldn't even tickle Savage; on the contrary, she was completely ragdolled by him (Ventress's durability should also be noted: she's been knocked through massive walls). The people Savage has overpowered via strength have better strength showings than the ones Malgus has overpowered. Standard Anakin is probably on par with Malgus in strength, yet Savage has even pressed him back with his strength. As pointed out, Savage was punching holes through stone walls before his amp by Talzin.

How do you get that from Plo vs Savage? I don't remember it with details but IIRC, we didn't see much of the fight.

Malgus has insane strength and tanking feats. In Return as an apprentice, he displays an extraordinary level of physical power. In Thrid Lesson which took place right after Hope where Malgus is wounded, he still managed to display his strength against a Zabrak(ironically) Jedi. Satele holding him off only proves her own strength, not Malgus' weakness. I agree that Savage probably has a slight edge in this criteria though.

The blaster bolt argument is more than sufficient for my case. Your argument is hinging on the damage, and as pointed out numerous times, is damage Savage can walk through. Again, why would Malgus's lightning damage him more than multiple blaster bolts? Because it's lightning? I think you're underestimating blaster bolts considerably, when, in fact, they've shown to be more lethal than most lightning. How many force users have you seen walk through blaster bolts? Even Dooku level didn't take his chances against them. I've seen the notion about Savage's armor brought up, but never a source.

Do you think Savage is actually that good though? I mean, he did get hurt and couldn't walk properly when he came to Dathomir. I always assumed it was the armor since Savage lacks tutaminis showings and wears an armor. I don't have a source for it but that is one logical explanation of it. Its still impressive but I don't think its very relevant against lightning. And to compare lightning and blaster bolts, while I do think that lightning is a more destructive energy, its easier for another force user to learn how to defend against it compared to blaster bolts and thats why blasters appear to be more lethal. So not knowing the technique could cause some problems for Savage.

I also think you're underestimating the amount of power Dooku was dishing out against Savage. He was expending enough energy that he was unable to easily take Ventress out, when he otherwise could. Consider his one on one with Ventress; she barely managed to clash with him for a few seconds before succumbing to his power. And like I said, this is Savage at his peak, and the more powerful he became, he's been shown to take more damage, with Dooku's last lightning attack being the moment Savage discovered where his true power comes from: anger/rage. So a protracted lightning attack could result in Savage choking Malgus out. That's more probable than Malgus just downing him with it and then walking up and cutting his head off. Savage stood completely up and lifting heavy obelisks while being attacked by a prolonged lightning attack. Pain feeds his anger, which peak Savage learned to utilize more effectively.

Savage was a distraction for Dooku that kept him from destroying Ventress and he wasn't competing with Ventress in a force fight so how much power he was dishing out isn't that related to why he couldn't defeat Ventress easily. And look at how Ventress defended against his lightning there. Savage did a lot worse than Ventress. The scene basically makes it clear that lightning attacks are his weakness.

If Malgus can win, it will be because of his lightning. Savage, at this point, is Malgus's clear superior in just about everything else.

Not sure about skill but I more or less agree with that.

SOD, Maul's conversation with Talzin confirmed he intended to draw Sidious away from Coruscant.

Can't believe how I forgot about that.

Again, what have Savage Opress done to imply that he can handle Darth Malgus? The latter have defeated some of the most powerful Jedi and is counted among the greatest warriors of the mythos.

Savage Opress isn't even a proper Lord.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Savage Opress isn't even a proper Lord.
Because of the Rule of Two...

And cuz he has basically zero Sith training......

Originally posted by Nephthys
And cuz he has basically zero Sith training......
Yet despite that managed to defeat two Jedi Council Members and countless other Jedi, drove back two of the greatest Jedi Knights in the Order, went toe-to-toe with Asajj Ventress and did better against Sidious than the Orders finest duelists.

I guess tutelage under the Rule of Two was just infinitely superior. 🙄

I wouldn't say he did better against Sidious than Kit did, but Agen and Saesee maybe...

Kit Fisto lost because his brilliance in dueling revolved around speed, and Sidious simply had him beat. Tbh you can't say Savage did better because he lasted longer, Sidious was toying with him relentlessly.

Tbh, my favourite aspect of Savage in general is that he tends to be the type of guy who has better feats than this iteration of Malgus, which, in turn, produces side effects such as causing Nephthys to be upset and maybe even wake him up in the middle of night screaming. I don't think it's even out of the question for Neph to be interrupted while masturbating by Savage's face popping up in his mind to say "hey bro, I'm better than Malgus, umad?" and then Neph is forced to either masturbate to 50% of Savage or just quit altogether. That's the main reason I like characters like Savage, I dunno about you guys tbh.

Originally posted by Selenial
I wouldn't say he did better against Sidious than Kit did, but Agen and Saesee maybe...

Kit Fisto lost because his brilliance in dueling revolved around speed, and Sidious simply had him beat. Tbh you can't say Savage did better because he lasted longer, Sidious was toying with him relentlessly.

Ultimately its interpretation as to how much Savage was being toyed with (at any one point in the duel) and how much energy Sidious was putting in in comparison to the B-Team. I certainly rate him for being able to tag-team with Maul.

But according to Dave he did better, and his interpretation is going to be the most accurate.

Originally posted by ILS
Tbh, my favourite aspect of Savage in general is that he tends to be the type of guy who has better feats than this iteration of Malgus, which, in turn, produces side effects such as causing Nephthys to be upset and maybe even wake him up in the middle of night screaming. I don't think it's even out of the question for Neph to be interrupted while masturbating by Savage's face popping up in his mind to say "hey bro, I'm better than Malgus, umad?" and then Neph is forced to either masturbate to 50% of Savage or just quit altogether. That's the main reason I like characters like Savage, I dunno about you guys tbh.
I can't pretend my respect for Savage hasn't increased after reading this.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet despite that managed to defeat two Jedi Council Members and countless other Jedi, drove back two of the greatest Jedi Knights in the Order, went toe-to-toe with Asajj Ventress and did better against Sidious than the Orders finest duelists.

I guess tutelage under the Rule of Two was just infinitely superior. 🙄

I didn't suggest he was weak. But he can't really be a proper Sith Lord if he has no sith training and seriously minimal training in the force, the jedi arts and lightsaber fencing in general.

Originally posted by ILS
Tbh, my favourite aspect of Savage in general is that he tends to be the type of guy who has better feats than this iteration of Malgus, which, in turn, produces side effects such as causing Nephthys to be upset and maybe even wake him up in the middle of night screaming. I don't think it's even out of the question for Neph to be interrupted while masturbating by Savage's face popping up in his mind to say "hey bro, I'm better than Malgus, umad?" and then Neph is forced to either masturbate to 50% of Savage or just quit altogether. That's the main reason I like characters like Savage, I dunno about you guys tbh.

Well I hate to disappoint you but since Savage isn't better than Malgus it isn't an issue for me. Ciao-ciao!

I wonder if it really matters either... mmm.

Originally posted by Selenial
Tbh you can't say Savage did better because he lasted longer, Sidious was toying with him relentlessly.

Except Filoni already did say that. So end of.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't suggest he was weak. But he can't really be a proper Sith Lord if he has no sith training and seriously minimal training in the force, the jedi arts and lightsaber fencing in general.
You missed the point, Savage evidently has plenty of Sith training, hence his accomplishments.

He's more than a Sith Lord by resurgent Sith Empire standards.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You missed the point, Savage evidently has plenty of Sith training, hence his accomplishments.

He's more than a Sith Lord by resurgent Sith Empire standards.

Pfft, that doesn't make any sense. He didn't do those things because of Sith training. You don't need Sith training to be very powerful and strong.

Ventress isn't a real Sith and she had way more legitimate training than he did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pfft, that doesn't make any sense. He didn't do those things because of Sith training. You don't need Sith training to be very powerful and strong.

Ventress isn't a real Sith and she had way more legitimate training than he did.

You need Sith training to be a skilled and to be able to apply your power in effective ways. No Savage did not have much training, but he did recieve training from Dooku, and that training was built upon by Maul, and was described as a quick learner.

What Savage gets however is results, that is what the Sith respect, and it would be what gets Savage the title of Lord.

Fact is he's more than a match for the skill sets of anyone holding that title. So his lack of title/training is moot.

No you don't, lol. You can be skilled and effective without Sith training, Savage is like the posterboy for that. He received a bit of training from Dooku but so did Ventress and GG, hell so did Vos, right? Dooku taught him nothing from the Sith. The whole point of getting rid of Ventress was that she was becoming too much of a legit apprentice, he's not going to turn around and give Savage any sort of legitimacy. And we don't know what Maul did with Savage.

No it isn't. Caedus would clown Opress and he's as Sith as my toenail.

Its moot for Legends point, it doesn't matter about how good he is. But he isn't a Sith Lord, not remotely. At the very most he'd be Mauls apprentice, but that is complicated.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No you don't, lol. You can be skilled and effective without Sith training, Savage is like the posterboy for that. He received a bit of training from Dooku but so did Ventress and GG, hell so did Vos, right? Dooku taught him nothing from the Sith. The whole point of getting rid of Ventress was that she was becoming too much of a legit apprentice, he's not going to turn around and give Savage any sort of legitimacy. And we don't know what Maul did with Savage.
You need to define "Sith training", I'm talking about training with a lightsaber and Force abilities, not philosophy or Dun Moch.

That said its not as if he wasn't taught the tenets of Sith philosophy.

No it isn't. Caedus would clown Opress and he's as Sith as my toenail.
I'm talking about Lords of the resurgent Sith Empire.

EDIT: On review I have no idea what your saying lol.

Its moot for Legends point, it doesn't matter about how good he is. But he isn't a Sith Lord, not remotely. At the very most he'd be Mauls apprentice, but that is complicated.
By Rule of Two standards, which is my point, by the standards of the resurgent Sith Empire he's more than qualified.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You need to define "Sith training", I'm talking about training with a lightsaber and Force abilities, not philosophy or Dun Moch.

Those things aren't Sith training. Any Dark Jedi can use a lightsaber, wield the Force ad call upon the darkside. Doesn't make them Sith though. It's more than that, the Sith are an exclusive order with beliefs, teachings and specific skills. None of which Savage has.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm talking about Lords of the resurgent Sith Empire.

EDIT: On review I have no idea what your saying lol.

Merely being a darksider who's strong doesn't make you a Sith.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
By Rule of Two standards, which is my point, by the standards of the resurgent Sith Empire he's more than qualified.

Pretty sure he isn't. You don't just show up and become a Sith Lord, you need to be an actual Sith first.

Revan and Malak are the exceptions naturally.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Those things aren't Sith training. Any Dark Jedi can use a lightsaber, wield the Force ad call upon the darkside. Doesn't make them Sith though. It's more than that, the Sith are an exclusive order with beliefs, teachings and specific skills. None of which Savage has.
But what relevance does that have to a martial engagement?
Merely being a darksider who's strong doesn't make you a Sith.
Fair enough, but he has the raw talent.
Pretty sure he isn't. You don't just show up and become a Sith Lord, you need to be an actual Sith first.

Revan and Malak are the exceptions naturally.

Of course you have to prove yourself, my point is Savage already has the talent to pass those tests.

Gotta give S66 credit, he's made a very convincing case here. Savage wins.