Team Cap vs Team Arrow

hate to admit it but barryu does screw this up, while he is fast enough to travel through time you can't take away the fact that he is getting tagged by slower enemies. firestorm is more of a thread but not by much.

cap goes on defense/ slight offense where as wintersoldier stays on the ground and going full strategic bad ass while black widow gets a good vantage point. falcon takes any of the blind siders.

black widow and WS take this with gus and automatic weaponry not to mention they have the marksman training and skills to deal with a situation like this

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
All his other... You mean the one I mentioned. And you're assuming Weather Wizard's lightning is the same as normal lightning. Barry fails with much slower than light speed and has no travel feats above Mach 1.

Is there any reason whatsoever that that specific lightning strike from a storm cloud is going to be any slower than regular lightning, simply because Mark made it happen? Are you saying it was? Prove it then, if that's what you think.

He also dodged electrical blasts from another metahuman way earlier in the series, and has gotten faster since then. Oh and caught up with and grabbed bullets, including ones fired at his back. So you are ignoring his other feats. Good to know.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
...as the show progressed? It was 1 episode ago that Grodd & Barry fought. Barry isn't fast enough on consistent showings to be compared with either movie QS.

So you didn't pay attention all the times Harrison has mentioned how Barry was getting faster and faster, his speed, reactions and uses for his powers were improving etc.? And like I said, that Grodd fight was no better than the ridiculous Heatwave/Captain Cold fight. What you are doing is using one fight (which is inconsistent with his most recent showings), while ignoring all the times he has easily blitzed people with regular speed, especially in more current episodes. So good job lowballing.

Also, if you really want to go there and use only the very most recent showings, last showing for Barry was in Arrow

Spoiler:
when he casually cleared Nanda Parbat of all the assassins that didn't accompany Ollie and Ra's to Starling City. They still ask him how many are left and he says "none", and there were hundreds in total, and only a few on the plane or with Ra's (certainly not anywhere close to their total numbers), implying Barry pretty much solo'd the majority of the League in seconds.

Team Cap stomps.

Originally posted by KingD19
This is in character though. So that's exactly what he'll do. In character he gets beat down and tagged by normal people(normal as in don't move any faster than usual) all the time. So Widow, Cap, and Bucky can all score hits. Plus they can shoot him as he's shown multiple times he's still having trouble against bullets.

And as far as I know, Firestorm isn't bulletproof nor is he faster than bullets. I think any of the three on the team who use guns would try and take out the flaming guy pretty quick.

In character means Barry gets both his low end and high end showings. Yes he's been tagged by non speedsters before but he's also had feats that no non-speedster could hope to match.

So let's not pretend he ALWAYS gets tagged by non speedsters.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In character means Barry gets both his low end and high end showings. Yes he's been tagged by non speedsters before but he's also had feats that no non-speedster could hope to match.

So let's not pretend he ALWAYS gets tagged by non speedsters.

Yeah, apparently for a lot of people supporting Team Cap, Barry "in character" means disregard all his higher end showings and only use low showings. Nevermind that the majority of his lower end showings, where he gets tagged by non speedsters, happens early in the season, and decreases as his speed develops.

Oh, and a thing about Grodd. People trying to lowball Barry with that fight should stop to think about it for a second. Grodd might not be a speedster, but he did have superhuman reaction times. Why? Because he caught Barry's supersonic punch. It's not called his "very fast punch". It's called his supersonic punch for a reason. And Grodd reacted to it and blocked it.

And like I said, his very latest showing, in Nanda Parbat, has him easily blitzing multiple assassins at once before they could even begin to react to him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Is there any reason whatsoever that that specific lightning strike from a storm cloud is going to be any slower than regular lightning, simply because Mark made it happen? Are you saying it was? Prove it then, if that's what you think.

He also dodged electrical blasts from another metahuman way earlier in the series, and has gotten faster since then. Oh and caught up with and grabbed bullets, including ones fired at his back. So you [B]are ignoring his other feats. Good to know.

So you didn't pay attention all the times Harrison has mentioned how Barry was getting faster and faster, his speed, reactions and uses for his powers were improving etc.? And like I said, that Grodd fight was no better than the ridiculous Heatwave/Captain Cold fight. What you are doing is using one fight (which is inconsistent with his most recent showings), while ignoring all the times he has easily blitzed people with regular speed, especially in more current episodes. So good job lowballing. [/B]

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Also, if you really want to go there and use only the very most recent showings, last showing for Barry was in Arrow

Spoiler:
when he casually cleared Nanda Parbat of all the assassins that didn't accompany Ollie and Ra's to Starling City. They still ask him how many are left and he says "none", and there were hundreds in total, and only a few on the plane or with Ra's (certainly not anywhere close to their total numbers), implying Barry pretty much solo'd the majority of the League in seconds.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Yeah, apparently for a lot of people supporting Team Cap, Barry "in character" means disregard all his higher end showings and only use low showings. Nevermind that the majority of his lower end showings, where he gets tagged by non speedsters, happens early in the season, and decreases as his speed develops.

Oh, and a thing about Grodd. People trying to lowball Barry with that fight should stop to think about it for a second. Grodd might not be a speedster, but he did have superhuman reaction times. Why? Because he caught Barry's supersonic punch. It's not called his "very fast punch". It's called his supersonic punch for a reason. And Grodd reacted to it and blocked it.

And like I said, his very latest showing, in Nanda Parbat, has him easily blitzing multiple assassins at once before they could even begin to react to him.

Agreed, solid feat for Grodd

LoA are very much RL humans, both Cap & Bucky have superhuman durability and Falcon can fly.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
I presented doubt and asked for any example that works in unison with the WW Lightning feat. You have so far conceded this point.
You keep saying "you don't understand" and then abandon your point, Yes Barry has been training, no he hasn't shown any great changes yet. Det. lance dropped one of these "elite" assassins. we aren't lowballing, you're applying non combat feats with dubious calcs and trying to use them as combat feats Barry doesn't have.

No, I have not conceded anything. I mentioned another specific instance where a different metahuman was firing electrical blasts at him, which he avoided. And I don't need to prove that lightning acts like lightning. If you want to imply that MM's lightning is slower than regular lightning, because he is a metahuman, it's up to you to prove it, not me.

If you can't visibly see how he has improved, how he gets tagged less often in fights, how he has achieved greater feats with his speed (like vibrating through matter, time travel etc.) by watching the show, then I really have no idea what to say to you. I mean really, he shows not only the speed, but also the durability to react to bullets successfully on multiple occasions (even ones fired from a blindspot), but he can't react that way to a fist? 😐

And that's ignoring the fight with the shifter, where Barry clearly outclassed him by leagues in terms of fighting speed, once he is no longer blinded.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym

LoA are very much RL humans, both Cap & Bucky have superhuman durability and Falcon can fly.

That was to counter the whole "regular humans tag and beat Barry all the time" stuff people were spewing. In the beginning of the series, yes, that happened a lot. But it has decreased steadily as the show has progressed. That in itself shows visible improvement to his speed, and ability to use it properly. And Barry has dealt with the flying drones Cisco used for training halfway through the season, so not like he is totally inexperienced with something like that.

And another key thing people are forgetting is that while RF is faster than him, Barry is still quick enough to register his movements, react and give him somewhat of a fight. So he has multiple legitimate feats of fighting and reacting at speeds beyond anyone on Team Cap could achieve.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
No, I have not conceded anything. I mentioned another specific instance where a different metahuman was firing electrical blasts at him, which he avoided. And I don't need to prove that lightning acts like lightning. If you want to imply that MM's lightning is slower than regular lightning, because he is a metahuman, it's up to you to prove it, not me.
If you can't visibly see how he has improved, how he gets tagged less often in fights, how he has achieved greater feats with his speed (like vibrating through matter, time travel etc.) by watching the show, then I really have no idea what to say to you. I mean really, he shows not only the speed, but also the durability to react to bullets successfully on multiple occasions (even ones fired from a blindspot), but he can't react that way to a fist? 😐
And that's ignoring the fight with the shifter, where Barry clearly outclassed him by leagues in terms of fighting speed, once he is no longer blinded.
That was to counter the whole "regular humans tag and beat Barry all the time" stuff people were spewing. In the beginning of the series, yes, that happened a lot. But it has decreased steadily as the show has progressed. That in itself shows visible improvement to his speed, and ability to use it properly. And Barry has dealt with the flying drones Cisco used for training halfway through the season, so not like he is totally inexperienced with something like that.
And another key thing people are forgetting is that while RF is faster than him, Barry is still quick enough to register his movements, react and give him somewhat of a fight. So he has multiple legitimate feats of fighting and reacting at speeds beyond anyone on Team Cap could achieve.

Barry got attacked by bees 2 episodes ago. You're getting dangerously close to me calling you a liar. Barry phased once with Eobard's direct help.

... Barry is faster than base human...ok?

Honestly think you're not watching the show.

Ok? Barry can see the ass-kicking he's getting? What's your point?

Barry blitzes non-superspeed enemies more often than he gets tagged.
So just because he gets tagged every now and then (not the norm) we're going to assume that Cap and WS can just hit him whenever they want?

Pish. Fanboys.

Need I also mention that Barry has the strongest healing factor here?

Barry has also failed to drop unpowered people after many many blows... Ollie also hit Barry multiple times and he is slower and less skilled than Cap or WS

I agree, people need to watch the shows and stop basing arguments off assumptions.

I'd say no, as it holds no bearing here. If Barry gets shot or knocked out his HF won't get him up anytime soon.

Doesn't Barry have, albeit limited, bullet time speed now as shown with that shape-shifting dude? Seems like it'd bee a lot hard for Team 1 to simple just shoot Cap. Though Barry's feats aren't really consistent enough to say that he'd simply blitz the team.

Cap has went up against a speedster in AOU and did horribly against him in h2h, Flash is faster thanQuicksilver so how could the outcome be any different here?

Cap got punched by him while fighting Ultron? Not sure what you are implying?

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Cap got punched by him while fighting Ultron? Not sure what you are implying?

Cap hit him after he had been tossed from trying to grab the hammer while it was flying. It tossed QS across the room and as he was getting up Cap tagged him with the shield. He didn't even see him coming.

cap got blitzed by silver twice, the second time he was battle ready so yeah, he doent do too well against speedsters, the only reason he was able to tag silver at all, as time pointed out was when he was disoriented from trying to grab mjolnir midair

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Barry has also failed to drop unpowered people after many many blows... Ollie also hit Barry multiple times and he is slower and less skilled than Cap or WS

I agree, people need to watch the shows and stop basing arguments off assumptions.

I'd say no, as it holds no bearing here. If Barry gets shot or knocked out his HF won't get him up anytime soon.

Barry got shot by crossbows on the back. Didn't kill him and he was pretty OK later. I'd say his HF will definitely be a factor here. If he gets shot and it's not a fatal shot (like say, maybe a shot to the shoulder), he'd probably tank it better than any other person in this fight.

Cap had a hard time fighting QS and Barry is faster than QS.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
name any other time Barry has moved faster than light.

lol, here is your problem. You are asking me to provide examples of stuff I never said. Quote me once where I said Barry is lightspeed. Just once. Oh wait, you can't because I never said it. He dodges lightning from WW and he dodges electrical blasts from Blackout. That would put him above supersonic speed, not at light speed, which was what I was saying. You keep going on about light speed but you are literally the only one who has brought it up.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym

Barry got attacked by bees 2 episodes ago. You're getting dangerously close to me calling you a liar. Barry phased once with Eobard's direct help.

Yeah, he got surrounded by a friggin' wall of them. Speed isn't an insta-win in every situation. It's not like Barry can fly after them to beat the individual bees into submission.

And point is we know he has learned to do phasing and can. And I have not called you a liar. But you continuously gloss over every single piece of evidence, from the show, I represent. You are honestly just coming across as a Marvel fanboy who tried to make a match you already decided the result of.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym

... Barry is faster than base human...ok?

Not just a base human. He is faster than anyone else in this thread, enhanced or not. You are downplaying the crap out of him, and only use his lowest showings when commenting about him.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym

Honestly think you're not watching the show.

I feel the same way about you at this point. We literally see him find more uses for his powers. We hear he himself, and Wells (the friggin' Reverse Flash, and probably the most knowledgeable person of anyone in the show about superspeed) comment how much he is improving. Hell, in the first episode he was clocked only at around 400mph if I recall correctly, and has increased his speed significantly as things have progressed. But I suspect you will again just gloss this over and pretend that visible evidence across the entire season doesn't count.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym

Ok? Barry can see the ass-kicking he's getting? What's your point?

LOL at you acting like anyone on Team Cap is in the Reverse Flash's league in terms of speed. If Barry can perceive, react and at least to some degree respond, during combat, to Wells, then he can definitely do so to anyone on Team Cap. But I suspect you will ignore this point again, like you have done so far.

I should have known this was a waste of time, considering your past ridiculous statements, like Hawkeye would kick Arrow's ass in H2H, in another thread. I remember it well because I laughed out loud.

Honestly, this match is really 2 VS 4, because there is nothing to suggest that Barry can't do something like this to Falcon and Widow the moment the match starts. This is his very latest showing. Only need to watch the beginning, it's where all the action is:

YouTube video

He could take Widow and Falcon out before they can even do anything. Unless someone can provide proof or feats, instead of trying to lowball the Flash, that Widow or Falcon can react to someone moving at the speeds Barry is moving in the clip. And it is not like it's a once off showing either. He has blitzed a number of people, powered and non-powered, throughout the series, as well as during his guest appearances on Arrow.

Originally posted by relentless1
cap got blitzed by silver twice, the second time he was battle ready so yeah, he doent do too well against speedsters, the only reason he was able to tag silver at all, as time pointed out was when he was disoriented from trying to grab mjolnir midair

Originally posted by FrothByte
Barry got shot by crossbows on the back. Didn't kill him and he was pretty OK later. I'd say his HF will definitely be a factor here. If he gets shot and it's not a fatal shot (like say, maybe a shot to the shoulder), he'd probably tank it better than any other person in this fight.

Cap had a hard time fighting QS and Barry is faster than QS.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
lol, here is your problem. You are asking me to provide examples of stuff I never said. Quote me once where I said Barry is lightspeed. Just once. Oh wait, you can't because I never said it. He dodges lightning from WW and he dodges electrical blasts from Blackout. That would put him above supersonic speed, not at light speed, which was what I was saying. You keep going on about light speed but you are literally the only one who has brought it up.

Yeah, he got surrounded by a friggin' wall of them. Speed isn't an insta-win in every situation. It's not like Barry can fly after them to beat the individual bees into submission.

And point is we know he has learned to do phasing and can. And I have not called you a liar. But you continuously gloss over every single piece of evidence, from the show, I represent. You are honestly just coming across as a Marvel fanboy who tried to make a match you already decided the result of.

Not just a base human. He is faster than anyone else in this thread, enhanced or not. You are downplaying the crap out of him, and only use his lowest showings when commenting about him.

I feel the same way about you at this point. We literally see him find more uses for his powers. We hear he himself, and Wells (the friggin' Reverse Flash, and probably the most knowledgeable person of anyone in the show about superspeed) comment how much he is improving. Hell, in the first episode he was clocked only at around 400mph if I recall correctly, and has increased his speed significantly as things have progressed. But I suspect you will again just gloss this over and pretend that visible evidence across the entire season doesn't count.

LOL at you acting like anyone on Team Cap is in the Reverse Flash's league in terms of speed. If Barry can perceive, react and at least to some degree respond, during [B]combat, to Wells, then he can definitely do so to anyone on Team Cap. But I suspect you will ignore this point again, like you have done so far.

I should have known this was a waste of time, considering your past ridiculous statements, like Hawkeye would kick Arrow's ass in H2H, in another thread. I remember it well because I laughed out loud. [/B]