Meetra Surik vs. ROTJ Luke Skywalker (lightsabers only)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Meetra is a highly competent lightsaber combatant, IMHO. She outdueled Fallen Jedi Master Atris, Handmaidens, Darth Sion, Darth Traya and Imperial Guards. This is very impressive performance since most of these opponents are officially master swordsmen.

A single loss doesn't takes away from Meetra's holistic performance. Luke Skywalker have lost and struggled in battles too, do we hold his losses and struggles against him?

It's not that, its the fact she had help from Scourge, who was on equal terms with Meetra, and even then, they were getting destroyed.

I don't think they had the upperhand for a single moment, and remember, the majority of the fight was sabers.

Darth Nyriss was amplified by the extreme dark side energies of Dromund Kaas and the massive archive of Sith paraphernalia throughout her compound. It is stated on three separate occasions the she was too fast and strong to keep up with because her amplified power translated into extreme physical augmentation.

Even despite this Meetra Surik was holding her own in the duel for a limited time and this despite the fact she suffered from a decreased connection to the Force whilst on the planet, a connection which had already suffered severely on Nathema days beforehand.

Now take into account what user Selenial pointed out, Meetra Surik took internal amplifications to the highest possible degree(though I didn't know that myself admittedly). This combat speed is shown in two fights:

1.She analyses a group of mercenaries and telekinetically throws one into a cave wall with sufficient kinetic Force she died on impact... all in half of a second.

2.She faces Imperial Guardsmen whom are empowered by the Emperor to the degree that even Revan's TK is ineffective on one of them, she kills two of them in a few seconds. These being the most elite Imperial Guardsmen in the entire organization charged by the Sith Emperor himself to protect him.

Both of these feats were accomplished on Dromund Kaas, where again her connection to the Force is diminished by the exteme Dark Side energies of the planet. On a neutral playing field she would be even faster in combat.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Nyriss was amplified by the extreme dark side energies of Dromund Kaas and the massive archive of Sith paraphernalia throughout her compound. It is stated on three separate occasions the she was too fast and strong to keep up with because her amplified power translated into extreme physical augmentation.

Even despite this Meetra Surik was holding her own in the duel for a limited time and this despite the fact she suffered from a decreased connection to the Force whilst on the planet, a connection which had already suffered severely on Nathema days beforehand.

She still lost the fight and Nyriss is nowhere near in the same realm as skilled as Vader. Also loling at her "holding her own" the text even says she was outmatched.

Nyriss seized the opportunity to focus all her efforts on Meetra's defenses . The Jedi was clearly outmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee

Not sure why you're bringing that point up either, as the version I'm using in this thread is KOTOR 2 Surik. And no beating fodder guards is in no way comparable to beating the Greatest Imperial duelist and one of the canonically best Jedi slayers of all time.

KotOR 2 Surik is probably more versatile and has more responsive skill (even though Luke is remarkable in these regards as well), but in terms of sheer lightsaber prowess, I'd say Luke edges her out.

Originally posted by Selenial
He didn't though, he was on the Back foot the entire time and only actually won when a rage induced force-strength match with Vader put him ahead. Vader wasn't trying to kill him, he was trying to convert him, Luke had no such reservations at that point.

Oh, and Meetra beat a superior force user on a "Collosal geyser of pure dark side energy" that made her physically ill, using her skills with a blade. Noting of course that Traya was herself a Lightsaber Master.

Kotor 2 Exile tier wise? Idk, I vary a lot.

He didn't just beat him through "dark rage", he forced him on the defensive multiple times as well.

For the first time, the thought entered Vader’s consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud Citynot to mention the boy’s timing, which was honed to a thought’s-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge

-Return of the Jedi novelization.

Before that Luke even force him on the defensive, so its quite obvious he negated Vader's Strength advantage over him

Luke attacked again - much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader’s phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously - but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees.

-Credit to Shootingnova/Newguy

And even in spite of Traya's amp she hasn't got a skill feat comparable to Vader at all.

Originally posted by carthage
She still lost the fight and Nyriss is nowhere near in the same realm as skilled as Vader. Also loling at her "holding her own" the text even says she was outmatched.

Not sure why you're bringing that point up either, as the version I'm using in this thread is KOTOR 2 Surik. And no beating fodder guards is in no way comparable to beating the Greatest Imperial duelist and one of the canonically best Jedi slayers of all time.

Nyriss didn't win via skill, but through speed and physical strength. Nice you managed to quote the wrong part of the fight, well done. The book also states that Surik fought her but was overwhelmed regardless and was going to be cut through her midrim, if not for Darth Sion.

Malachor V Surik is about 10 weeks before Dromund Kaas Surik, not seeinga huge difference in power. Unless you take Traya and Sion's statements that Surik becomes more powerful than Traya to a very serious degree.

Regardless I am replying to Jmanghan's claiming that the one Nyriss feat somehow retcons every other feat she has accomplished.

You seem upset, Ancient. Surik a raw spot for you in debates?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nyriss didn't win via skill, but through speed and physical strength. Nice you managed to quote the wrong part of the fight, well done. The book also states that Surik fought her but was overwhelmed regardless and was going to be cut through her midrim, if not for Darth Sion.

Malachor V Surik is about 10 weeks before Dromund Kaas Surik, not seeinga huge difference in power. Unless you take Traya and Sion's statements that Surik becomes more powerful than Traya to a very serious degree.

Regardless I am replying to Jmanghan's claiming that the one Nyriss feat somehow retcons every other feat she has accomplished.

I never claimed Nyriss was more skilled than Surik, and you also acknowledged that she was beaten down regardless so well done yourself 👆. I personally listed KOTOR 2 Exile, but if you want to acknowledge Revan Meetra- you do so at your own peril. Traya and Sion are fodder to Vader in terms of sheer lightsaber skill/mastery/feats. Unless you've got someone better that Surik has beaten that surpasses Luke beating Vader, I think we're done here 👆

Originally posted by carthage
She still lost the fight and Nyriss is nowhere near in the same realm as skilled as Vader. Also loling at her "holding her own" the text even says she was outmatched.

Check this thread for reference: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-611486-starkiller-vs-darth-nyriss-sabers-only.html

Originally posted by carthage
Not sure why you're bringing that point up either, as the version I'm using in this thread is KOTOR 2 Surik. And no beating fodder guards is in no way comparable to beating the Greatest Imperial duelist and one of the canonically best Jedi slayers of all time.

They are not fodder if Jedi powers don't effect them and they are able to match Jedi and Sith in combat prowess.

Originally posted by carthage
I never claimed Nyriss was more skilled than Surik, and you also acknowledged that she was beaten down regardless so well done yourself 👆. I personally listed KOTOR 2 Exile, but if you want to acknowledge Revan Meetra- you do so at your own peril. Traya and Sion are fodder to Vader in terms of sheer lightsaber skill/mastery/feats. Unless you've got someone better that Surik has beaten that surpasses Luke beating Vader, I think we're done here 👆

Darth Traya have demonstrated expertise in the use of Force powers that are among the most difficult to master; a sign of great potential, talent, and command of the Force. In short, Darth Traya was able to wield the Force in ways Darth Vader never could.

Originally posted by ILS
You seem upset, Ancient. Surik a raw spot for you in debates?

Is this your contribution to debates now? my how far you have fallen.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Is this your contribution to debates now? my how far you have fallen.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I wouldn't go as far as to assert that Darth Traya is fodder to Darth Vader. Nope.

Darth Traya have demonstrated expertise in the use of Force powers that are among the most difficult to master; a sign of great potential, talent, and command of the Force. In short, Darth Traya was able to wield the Force in ways Darth Vader never could.

I know everyone vouches for her haxing force powers. "10/10 BEST DRAIN, DRAIN OF THE YEAR!"

When in reality, it isn't impressive in the slightest, and there's no guarantee lesser characters couldn't replicate it.

Originally posted by carthage
I never claimed Nyriss was more skilled than Surik, and you also acknowledged that she was beaten down regardless so well done yourself 👆. I personally listed KOTOR 2 Exile, but if you want to acknowledge Revan Meetra- you do so at your own peril. Traya and Sion are fodder to Vader in terms of sheer lightsaber skill/mastery/feats. Unless you've got someone better that Surik has beaten that surpasses Luke beating Vader, I think we're done here 👆

You argued that Nyriss was nowhere near as skilled as Darth Vader despite the fact Nyriss wasn't winning via skill. Instead she won via speed, but even then as the novel states she was able to defend herself due to lightsaber skill.

They are not two different characters, all of her feats are valid in this debate.

Oh and Luke was not beating an all-out Vader, Luke was hiding from a Vader that was trying to convert him, when Luke decided to go all-out Vader was far from prepared and lost in very short order. Coincidentally Luke himself states that if Darth Vader had intended to kill him he would be dead.

ROTJ Luke is not Vader tier and never has been Carthage so make a proper argument concerning whom ROTJ Luke defeated in all-out.

Make sure it compares to walking the surface of Malachor V:

"To walk on its surface is to feel it crushing every cell of your being. It is like being buried alive until it feels like you may never breathe again..."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Which is also covered in toxic fumes:

The dark side energy seething throughout the planet has created a terrain of jagged rock spires, treacherous paths, and sheer cliffs. You find a pair of wrecked Republic ships that are mostly buried under mountains of sharp boulders. Beware of the glowing green cracks in the soil; these mark the location of poison gas vents.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Whilst fighting the powerful Storm Beasts:

More dangerous still are the storm beasts—massive humanoid brutes twisted into monstrous forms by the corrupting energy of Malachor V.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Storm beasts are hulking monstrosities that roam the surface of Malachor V. Savage reptilian hunters that stand about 2 meters tall, they possess vicious demeanors and abilities that have been augmented by the dark side of the Force.

Source: Jedi Academy Training Manual

Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes may ultimately defeat them.

Source: Power Beyond Belief

Largest of his breed, the greater storm beast possesses immense strength and toughness.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Then an amped legion of Elite Sith:

Trayus Academy is the home of those Jedi who have succumbed the to dark side taint of Malachor V. To reach the structure's core, where Darth Sion and Kreia await, you must face a legion of elite Sith single-handedly.

...

Only by fighting your way through the Sith's strongest guardians can you earn the right to confront your nemesis.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

amped Darth Sion and finally amped Darth Traya:

Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to wield a trio of lightsabers against her, but she is ultimately killed by the person she considered her greatest disciple.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

On Malachor V:

The nexus of the Trayus Academy, the core is a clawlike altar built over a colossal geyser of dark side energy. It is here that you face your ultimate battle and fulfill your destiny.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Thanks to EvanNova64/ShootingNova/SunRazer.

You argued that Nyriss was nowhere near as skilled as Darth Vader despite the fact Nyriss wasn't winning via skill. Instead she won via speed, but even then as the novel states she was able to defend herself due to lightsaber skill.

No I didn't I said Nyriss was nowhere near as skilled as Vader and pointed out where in Revan the text says she was outmatched in her fight. Nowhere did I say Nyriss was more skilled than Meetra, Nyriss won due to being amped by DK. Try again. I make no claims for Meetra's skill, other than her being inferior to Luke by virtue of not having beaten anyone apart from beings that are largely accolades and lack the showings of Vader.

They are not two different characters, all of her feats are valid in this debate.

Ok, I'll acknowledge her beating Non force sensitive guards whom Luke and Vader would stomp easily

Oh and Luke was not beating an all-out Vader, Luke was hiding from a Vader that was trying to convert him, when Luke decided to go all-out Vader was far from prepared and lost in very short order. Coincidentally Luke himself states that if Darth Vader had intended to kill him he would be dead.

All of which is completely invalidated by canon sources 👆. In addition to the quotes I posted earlier:

And there was a further matter. In his battles with Darth Vader and the Emperor, Luke felt he had never truly tested his powers to the limits.
--The Courtship of Princess Leia

Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke’s saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate. The Dark Lord was driven to his knees.
--Return of the Jedi

Vader also considered Luke a worthy opponent as of the Empire strikes back

Vader did not want that. When they fought, he had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certainly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy had held his own. Despite Vader’s superior skill, despite his experience, Luke had survived with no more damage than an easily repaired amputated hand.The meeting had made Vader feel, not a normal occurrence lately. There had been the thrill of meeting a worthy opponent and pride that the one so strongly opposing him was his own son.

ROTJ Luke is not Vader tier and never has been Carthage so make a proper argument concerning whom ROTJ Luke defeated in all-out.

Maybe you should try reading my OP this battle is sabers only?

Make sure it compares to walking the surface of Malachor V:

So what I'm gathering is none of the opponents you've listed remotely come close to Vader in skill. She killed Storm beasts? That's nice tell me how random beasts would somehow be an adequate gauge of her abilities as a ligthsaber combatant? It isn't or I can just point out that Vader killed Lyleks that can besiege entire cities, even though that has no bearing whatsoever on Vader's abilities as a duelist so much as defeating skilled opponents 👆

Then an amped legion of Elite Sith:

Not sure how beating fodder Sith >>> beating a guy and negating the strength advantage of one of the most skilled duelists in the mythos

amped Darth Sion and finally amped Darth Traya:

Sion is a joke of a duelist barring his near-immortality, and Traya has no skill feats of note that would compare to Vader as a duelist.

Her being afflicted by a nexus is worth mentioning, but considering how her opponents have next to feats to determine how skilled they are-I'm not sure how any of that at all compares to someone like Vader or being able to hold his own against Vader in ESB in spite of virtually no training.

LMAO at using the movie novels that are so far out of date it's hilarious. Plenty of sources have stated Vader never went all out against Luke in either confrontation.

Oh and calling the elite Sith of an order founded upon the most combat experienced and well-trained era of Jedi ever all fodder and featless is hilarious in all honesty, lowballing the entire KOTOR era isn't going to convince any body.

Originally posted by AncientPower
LMAO at using the movie novels that are so far out of date it's hilarious. Plenty of sources have stated Vader never went all out against Luke in either confrontation.

Oh and calling the elite Sith of an order founded upon the most combat experienced and well-trained era of Jedi ever all fodder and featless is hilarious in all honesty, lowballing the entire KOTOR era isn't going to convince any body.

Proof? And Disregarding canon sources that don't support your point of view is laughable , especially when you've provided no evidence that Meetra is in any sense more skilled than Luke per feats. You have no problem sucking Exar's cock with "out of date" sources from the TOTJ handbook

No but actually showing a single instance where Meetra has defeated an opponent superior to Vader in feats would really help your cause 👆

Originally posted by AncientPower
the most combat experienced and well-trained era of Jedi ever

Swtor padawans have more combat experience than veteran soldiers brah. estahuh

But yes to everything else you said.

"these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, Pg.103

-----------

"the Jedi Order is at the summit of its power and self-confidence."

Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, Pg.129

------------

"The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters of the battlefield, others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle Dark Jedi and Sith in single combat."

Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Swtor didn't even exist when that guide was written. Swtor Jedi are made clear to basically be a better version of the Kotor Jedi. They are much larger, better equipped and better trained.

Carthage it appears I was wrong concerning Luke, in older sources your stance is correct, however more modern sources make it quite clear that Luke defeated Vader due to tapping into the Dark Side not due to skill alone.

However I question just how well this Luke iteration deals with someone with near top tier speed feats and excellent precognition. Not to mention full mastery of lightsaber combat and unarmed combat.