US Government Type

Originally posted by Star428
To all the people who are claiming that we are both a democracy and a republic, you're wrong too. Just because we use a democratic process to elect our officials doesn't mean that our government type is democracy or even a democratic republic as some of u claim. We don't make laws or amend them using a democratic method but a republic one. We have 3 branches of government (checks and balances). They keep each other in check. It's a limited government ruled by the Constitution. In a republic, the Constitution grants inalienable rights to every individual that can never be taken away by a simple majority vote of either the general populace (pure democracy) or of any representative body (representative democracy). The fact that the Constitution protects the individual or minorities from the majority is the defining point of what makes this country a republic. Democracy doesn't come into it at all. When laws are finally passed it took a Hell of a lot more than a simple majority vote (which is all that a democracy would require) to pass them.

It was made quite clear that the founding fathers thought democracy was one of the worst government types and that the people of that period would accept no other form of government other than a republic. Our form of government is a republic and nothing but a republic... Period.

Originally posted by Star428
To all the people who are claiming that we are both a democracy and a republic, you're wrong too. Just because we use a democratic process to elect our officials doesn't mean that our government type is democracy or even a democratic republic as some of u claim. We don't make laws or amend them using a democratic method but a republic one. We have 3 branches of government (checks and balances). They keep each other in check. It's a limited government ruled by the Constitution. In a republic, the Constitution grants inalienable rights to every individual that can never be taken away by a simple majority vote of either the general populace (pure democracy) or of any representative body (representative democracy). The fact that the Constitution protects the individual or minorities from the majority is the defining point of what makes this country a republic. Democracy doesn't come into it at all. When laws are finally passed it took a Hell of a lot more than a simple majority vote (which is all that a democracy would require) to pass them.

It was made quite clear that the founding fathers thought democracy was one of the worst government types and that the people of that period would accept no other form of government other than a republic. If the founding fathers knew about all the so-called "americans" of today who claim we're a democracy or even a democratic republic they' be turning over in their graves. Our form of government is a republic and nothing but a republic... Period.

More lack of context and failure of understanding.

A. the Founding Fathers were only talking about direct democracy- as is evident, because the system they introduced wa a a democracy

B. This statement:

"Just because we use a democratic process to elect our officials doesn't mean that our government type is democracy"

... is in this context completely wrong, because that you democratically elect representatives of the people absolutely 100% makes the US a democracy

C. This statement:

"In a republic, the Constitution grants inalienable rights to every individual "

... is also wrong. There is nothing innate about a Republic which means it has to have a constitution. There are plenty of Republics which don't have much in the way of such legal protection. All you need to be a Republic in the modern day is a. elected government and b. not have a monarch. All your talk about checks and balances has nothing to do with being a Republic either, and plenty of non-Republics have similar measures.

The only thing in this thread that would make the Founding Fathers turn in their graves is your disgraceful ignorance and stubborn refusal to engage in any form of rationality in such matters. Your attitude is exactly what they would not have wanted.

By Stars definition Switzerland is the only democracy in the world

One more reason to hate the Swiss.

Even Switzerland generally governs via representation; it just has some direct elements in it. There is nowhere in the world that conducts its day to day affairs via direct democracy.

The Founding Fathers, frankly, also thought a lot of stupid things for all the good they did. At least some of them, anyways.

Though I remember seeing some kind of documentary or special where it said most of the Founders would hate America as it is today. Maybe hate is too strong a word, but they'd despise it. At least according to the special. Then again it was on History channel so who knows.

Yes, let's take the direct word of the slave owning founding fathers. Sure nothing bad will come of that 🙄

Originally posted by Surtur
The Founding Fathers, frankly, also thought a lot of stupid things for all the good they did. At least some of them, anyways.

Though I remember seeing some kind of documentary or special where it said most of the Founders would hate America as it is today. Maybe hate is too strong a word, but they'd despise it. At least according to the special. Then again it was on History channel so who knows.

I think the problem with the Founding Fathers in a modern context is that certain people will try to "claim" the Founding Fathers to support their own political positions.

Both parties do it, but Republicans seem to like it a lot more than Democrats, probably because their small-government worldview is more in line with the Founding Father's notion of government. It's a is-ought (or more appropriately a "was-ought"😉 fallacy. Simply because the Founding Fathers held a belief--even what was a prudent belief--at one time doesn't mean that we should be automatically beholden to the same beliefs today.

Personal morals aside, the basic principle of government the Founding Fathers espoused was the balance of powers within government. They talked about that in the context and language of their day, and people who look at that without context misinterpret like crazy.

The principle of balance of powers still holds- but pretty much every single western nation holds to that principle, despite the efforts of many to say the principles have been lost. For that matter, the FFs hardly had a monopoly on the idea of power balance in government being a good idea.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Yes, let's take the direct word of the slave owning founding fathers. Sure nothing bad will come of that 🙄

Yes lets make this about slavery/racism now.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Yes lets make this about slavery/racism now.

I'm merely giving an example of how the founding fathers are not omniscient and thus their word can not be taken with absolute certainty.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I'm merely giving an example of how the founding fathers are not omniscient and thus their word can not be taken with absolute certainty.

Has nothing to do with each other. Europeans actually started slavery, which was common practice in those days. Actually most of the world has had some form of slavery. Jew's were slaves in Egypt, and massacred in WW2, but they still are not bitching about it. They pulled out of it, and are now the richest people in the world.

In no way does this mean "the Founding Fathers didn't know what they are doing" and you don't have to be omniscient to form a government.

Originally posted by Surtur
We are supposed to be a democracy. If you asked the president if we are a democratic society he would say "yes". You can certainly argue if the country behaves that way, but the government at least considers itself democratic.

After the signing of the Constitution, Benjamin Franklin was asked by a woman. "What have you given us, sir?"

He responded "A Republic, if you can keep it."

Jews not bitching about it.

lmfao.

Jews do nothing but ***** about holocaust.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Jews not bitching about it.

lmfao.

Jews do nothing but ***** about holocaust.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Has nothing to do with each other.

In no way does this mean "the Founding Fathers didn't know what they are doing" and you don't have to be omniscient to form a government.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial

Jew's were slaves in Egypt, and massacred in WW2, but they still are not bitching about it.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Jews not bitching about it.

lmfao.

Jews do nothing but ***** about holocaust.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Real talk. There are four or five holocaust museums in New York alone, whereas there's only one official museum dedicated to the history of black slavery in America in all of the USA, and that was just opened this year.

😆

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think it's completely irrelevant. If the Founding Fathers could be so completely wrong about something we now consider one of the most important issues in American history, then ignoring it would be to whitewash history.

Well, yeah, but there are lots of things that are "common practice" today that we shouldn't do and will likely be condemned by future societies for doing, such as governments spying on their own citizens, police officers killing unarmed suspects with impunity, putting high fructose corn syrup in literally every food, and lots of stupid agricultural/ecological practices. I agree it's worth considering that the Founding Fathers grew up in a slaveholding society and so were brought up with these wrongheaded values, but for people who are championed as being progressive (almost to a prophetic level in some people's eyes) thinkers and reformers, it's a bit embarrassing that the issue of slavery wasn't even a matter of serious debate for them.

Well I don't think Lestov, or anyone in this forum, would say that the FFs were completely clueless about everything. The Founding Fathers did what very few revolutionary groups in all of history have accomplished: forming a stable, prosperous, and free nation. I think you're misinterpreting the critique of the FFs on a Pedestal mindset. It isn't that we think the FFs were stupid or completely morally bankrupt, it's just that they were flawed humans who shouldn't be idolized or held as an unchanging standard of governance in perpetuity.

👆

Not that I'm defending slavery but free workers in the hundreds when that's all you're brought up with is a tough thing to just turn down for an entire country.

What would even compare to that convenience in today's society? Cars?

Lol

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Not that I'm defending slavery but free workers in the hundreds when that's all you're brought up with is a tough thing to just turn down for an entire country.

What would even compare to that convenience in today's society? Cars?

So human rights can be ignored out of pragmatism?