US Government Type

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think it's completely irrelevant. If the Founding Fathers could be so completely wrong about something we now consider one of the most important issues in American history, then ignoring it would be to whitewash history.

Well, yeah, but there are lots of things that are "common practice" today that we shouldn't do and will likely be condemned by future societies for doing, such as governments spying on their own citizens, police officers killing unarmed suspects with impunity, putting high fructose corn syrup in literally every food, and lots of stupid agricultural/ecological practices. I agree it's worth considering that the Founding Fathers grew up in a slaveholding society and so were brought up with these wrongheaded values, but for people who are championed as being progressive (almost to a prophetic level in some people's eyes) thinkers and reformers, it's a bit embarrassing that the issue of slavery wasn't even a matter of serious debate for them.

Well I don't think Lestov, or anyone in this forum, would say that the FFs were completely clueless about everything. The Founding Fathers did what very few revolutionary groups in all of history have accomplished: forming a stable, prosperous, and free nation. I think you're misinterpreting the critique of the FFs on a Pedestal mindset. It isn't that we think the FFs were stupid or completely morally bankrupt, it's just that they were flawed humans who shouldn't be idolized or held as an unchanging standard of governance in perpetuity.

Maybe they don't stop talking about it cause there are some groups who deny its existence. But this is not the first time the jews were enslaved. Happened in Egypt as well.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Jews not bitching about it.

lmfao.

Jews do nothing but ***** about holocaust.

There is no reason to be upset.

Originally posted by Lestov16
So human rights can be ignored out of pragmatism?

Even if they were against it we saw what happened when it was a threat to be taken away. Of which I'm sure they knew would be the consequence if they tried.

If you contrast it with todays society it'd be like taking away all horseless transportation for us or some other shit we hold dear. I'm not saying they were good people, but morals aside slavery was like winning the lottery for almost every white person that owned land.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Maybe they don't stop talking about it cause there are some groups who deny its existence.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Not that I'm defending slavery but free workers in the hundreds when that's all you're brought up with is a tough thing to just turn down for an entire country.

What would even compare to that convenience in today's society? Cars?

And you can argue that the South actually hamstringed its own economic development by using slaves instead of creating a strong top-to-bottom economy. Slaves outcompeted poor whites in getting jobs (leading to unemployment), and because slaves were paid so little (if they were paid at all) they couldn't spend any money and so there was little consumer-driven economic growth.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think the closest analogue would be a lot of current agricultural/food production practices that are detrimental to both human health and the environment but are continuing because they're profitable/easy.

And you can argue that the South actually hamstringed its own economic development by using slaves instead of creating a strong top-to-bottom economy. Slaves outcompeted poor whites in getting jobs (leading to unemployment), and because slaves were paid so little (if they were paid at all) they couldn't spend any money and so there was little consumer-driven economic growth.

There's a reason it wasn't priority one. Though it did get phased out relatively shortly after. That South though...

They just didn't want to give it up, which is understandable. The possible detriment to the economy wouldn't have been too important in the face of all that free labour though considering how many were slave owners. They were personally making money by doing almost nothing. That's pretty much the dream isn't it?

Though now that you mention it I am curious about there being details on non slave owners during that time. How poor they were and the economy and such and such. Not challenging you, just more for my reading.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So basically the ease in which we get food?
Which is big. But you're talking direct analogue, I'm speaking of the most important thing we do or close to it. Which might still be that. Hmm.

hough now that you mention it I am curious about there being details on non slave owners during that time. How poor they were and the economy and such and such. Not challenging you, just more for my reading.

Fascinating really. The South was basically the same as it is today in some respects: filled with poor people complacent with or supporting institutions and forces that keep them poor.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
That would be an oversimplification. Not all time saving or cost saving food production measures are bad. Mechanical harvesting for instance saves time and labor and in most cases doesn't change the quality of the food harvested.

But I don't think slavery was "the most important thing" that people did in the FF's time. Maybe around 1850 when the abolition debate was issue #1 it took on a cultural significance in the South that would qualify as such, but not in 1789.

Yeah, the reason being that the Founding Fathers failed to appreciate the moral consequences of slaveowning.

Well that's another oversimplification. Slaveowning statistics show that the huge plantations as depicted in Django were the exception not the rule. Half of all slave owners in 1860 had fewer than five slaves, and the majority of the rest had no more than 20. You're not making money hand over fist with three or four people, no matter how industrious you are or how hard you drive them. It was a very small sliver of the population (something like 1% as it happens) who actually had a big economic stake in slavery. I don't think the benefits of slavery are what made people defend slavery--it was the belief that slaves were property, and personal property was sacred.

T
Just stumbled on this: https://books.google.com/books?id=-VMEAAAAMBAJ&l (go to page 110)

Fascinating really. The South was basically the same as it is today in some respects: filled with poor people complacent with or supporting institutions and forces that keep them poor.

It was like 1/5th of the population back then. 😬
That seems pretty significant to me. That's quite a high fraction of essentially free workers. Just because it got bigger later on doesn't mean it wasn't huge to begin with.

I'm not speaking of morals. Though there was a difference back then. I'm speaking of a large number of people doing absolutely shitty work for basically nothing. Which morals or not is a tough thing to simply stop. It's actually astounding to me they'd even try and stop this considering how ingrained it was.

I'm not speaking of huge plantations. Everything I'm saying is coming from a labourer who (when he worked I guess) did some hard shitty work. Any sort of worker you can get is a huge benefit, even moreso when you don't have to pay.
It doesn't matter if you have 1, 2, or 100 slaves. Every single one is huge. Every single one is someone who you can pay whatever you want. Someone who you can force to work beyond their limits. It's work most people don't want to do anyway but they have to.
Maybe not everyone got a free ride, but the people who owned slaves had life a lot easier than if they didn't.

And property and benefits aren't mutually exclusive. Had they lost slaves that was just another worker they had to pay to compensate or slow the process had they not matched what they lost, either way that's direct money they're losing. Was personal property sacred because it was yours or was it sacred because it served a huge benefit? Maybe a little of both, but you can't tell me they didn't see the benefits of them when that's the purpose of them in the first place.

I'm not saying slavery was good, or the founding fathers weren't morally corrupt. I'm just saying that slavery was really retardedly beneficial, and it's understandable why this was not the first thing given up.
I don't really care on the prior discussion of how their opinions matter, just weighing in on slavery. They could have all been child rapists for all it matters to me.

Also
"He could not beat drums or blow horns"

I don't know why that made me laugh. What a terrible place

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Has nothing to do with each other. Europeans actually started slavery, which was common practice in those days. Actually most of the world has had some form of slavery. Jew's were slaves in Egypt, and massacred in WW2, but they still are not bitching about it. They pulled out of it, and are now the richest people in the world.

In no way does this mean "the Founding Fathers didn't know what they are doing" and you don't have to be omniscient to form a government.

He also seems to be forgetting or perhaps he's ignorant of the fact that it is his black African ancestors who sold us those slaves and that it was a republican (Abraham Lincoln) who freed them.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
After the signing of the Constitution, Benjamin Franklin was asked by a woman. "What have you given us, sir?"

He responded "A Republic, if you can keep it."

Exactly. That's the problem: keeping it. The dumbing down of America has made too many people apathetic and ignorant of their rights granted to them by our republican form of government. They don't realize that the government is the servant of "We, the people" and that the power is in the people's hands. How could they? They're constantly bombarded by lies from everyone (the media, the movies, forums like this one, even the POTUS himself) that we are a democracy. They have been made ignorant of this country's roots. Many don't even think it was founded on Christianity when the evidence is overwhelming that it was. The government wants people to stay ignorant of their roots. It's not a coincidence that the pledge of allegiance and praying were both removed from school classrooms long ago. Both of those are strong connections to our nation's roots. The pledge clearly states that the flag stands for a republic and that we are "One nation, under God".

Originally posted by Star428
He also seems to be forgetting or perhaps he's ignorant of the fact that it is his black African ancestors who sold us those slaves and that it was a republican (Abraham Lincoln) who freed them.

Originally posted by Star428
He also seems to be forgetting or perhaps he's ignorant of the fact that it is his black African ancestors who sold us those slaves and that it was a republican (Abraham Lincoln) who freed them.

Exactly. That's the problem: [b]keeping it. The dumbing down of America has made too many people apathetic and ignorant of their rights granted to them by our republican form of government. They don't realize that the government is the servant of "We, the people" and that the power is in the people's hands. How could they? They're constantly bombarded by lies from everyone (the media, the movies, forums like this one, even the POTUS himself) that we are a democracy. They have been made ignorant of this country's roots. Many don't even think it was founded on Christianity when the evidence is overwhelming that it was. The government wants people to stay ignorant of their roots. It's not a coincidence that the pledge of allegiance and praying were both removed from school classrooms long ago. Both of those are strong connections to our nation's roots. The pledge clearly states that the flag stands for a republic and that we are "One nation, under God". [/B]

The pledge of allegiance is not connected to your nations roots, it was composed over a hundred years after the United States was founded. The words "under God", that you seem to treasure so much, were only added 60 years ago, it has absolutely nothing to do with the founding fathers or the roots of the nation.

Additionally, you keep conflating indentured servitude to the chattel slavery, which are not at all similar. To make this false comparison, minimizes the dehumanising atrocity of chattel slavery, most famously perpetrated by the United States. Additionally the idea that Africans sold their own people also shows a misunderstanding of regional politics at the time, tribes in Africa at the time did not consider themselves African, and they didn't sell their own people, they sold captives of enemy tribes.

Originally posted by Star428
He also seems to be forgetting or perhaps he's ignorant of the fact that it is his black African ancestors who sold us those slaves and that it was a republican (Abraham Lincoln) who freed them.

Exactly. That's the problem: [b]keeping it. The dumbing down of America has made too many people apathetic and ignorant of their rights granted to them by our republican form of government. They don't realize that the government is the servant of "We, the people" and that the power is in the people's hands. How could they? They're constantly bombarded by lies from everyone (the media, the movies, forums like this one, even the POTUS himself) that we are a democracy. They have been made ignorant of this country's roots. Many don't even think it was founded on Christianity when the evidence is overwhelming that it was. The government wants people to stay ignorant of their roots. It's not a coincidence that the pledge of allegiance and praying were both removed from school classrooms long ago. Both of those are strong connections to our nation's roots. The pledge clearly states that the flag stands for a republic and that we are "One nation, under God". [/B]

Also, it's a miracle that "In God We Trust" has not been removed from our currency yet.

Originally posted by Star428
Also, it's a miracle that "In God We Trust" has not been removed from our currency yet.

That's would be tragic, it has such a long and respectful 60 year old history....

Originally posted by Star428
Also, it's a miracle that "In God We Trust" has not been removed from our currency yet.