Prequel Trilogy Jedi vs KotOR Era Jedi

Originally posted by AncientPower
The version of the Jedi that Ant is using for comparison is itself stretching from the Great Sith War to the Dark Wars, as that is what the sources he uses here state. Thus all characters throughout that half century period are valid characters for discussion.

Sure, but I think when comparing orders, I think it's more worth noting how much they bring to bear at any one time. Lumping a lot together obscures the data.

I mean, the same time frame from TPM would run all the way to Luke.

Which is not to say I disagree with you on the matter of them having a strong roster- I think they do, I just think it's two rosters to be counted separately. With the Exar War roster being somewhat the stronger of the two (due in part to the latter timeframe having lost a lot due to said wars).

I think novel Revan is nearly Yoda tier and that they trade inferior lightsaber skill with better over-all Force showings.

I agree, there was much more focus on esoteric force powers over saber skills. As most exemplified by Arca Jeth, who eschewed the use of saber even.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
[B]Experience: The Jedi Knights of the Knights of the Old Republic are more experienced in intense and melee/lightsaber combat based off of all available sources. The Jedi being born and fighting in the Mandalorian Wars would have known, lived, and trained in war their entire life. [/B]

In fact a great deal of Jedi would have experienced nigh 40 years of non-combat since the Great Sith War, which itself lasted only a year. The last major conflict since that being the Great Hyperspace War, which occurred 1,000 years ago. So in reality the Jedi Order proper has only a year or so of combat experience, which is probably why they were promptly slaughtered during the ensuing Jedi Civil War.

So if we are talking Jedi Orders, as in official members, I expect PT Jedi Order > KOTOR Jedi Order, the Revanchists are a different story.

Swtor definitely has the biggest edge in terms of experience in my estimation. According to Swtore even Jedi Padawans "have already spent more time in battle than the average veteran soldier" by the time they take the trials.

You can imagine the kind of battle experience Jedi like Orgus Din, who's the most veteran Jedi in the Order, have.

Plus they have all that experience against an actual Sith Empire, Mandalorians and more in protracted, open warfare and spent 15 years specifically training to beat the Empire.

The Brotherhood era might have better experience, but I dunno about that. Some of the BoD were kind of lame.

Experience is usually only going to make a noticeable difference if you're up against an inexperienced fighter. Otherwise, there's plenty of examples of more experienced characters losing to less experienced characters.

Logically speaking, it should be PT Jedi>SWTOR Jedi>KOTOR Jedi

Originally posted by SunRazer
Experience is usually only going to make a noticeable difference if you're up against an inexperienced fighter. Otherwise, there's plenty of examples of more experienced characters losing to less experienced characters.

I disagree. Experience directly ties into someone's combat skill. You wouldn't say that skill is only useful against unskilled opponents. You have a ton of experience dueling someone to the death then you have a lot of extra knowledge about fighting than someone greener. Practice makes perfect, after all.

You know better how to move, when to wait, when's the best chance to catch your breath, what the forms look like in a real fight and what to expect, what's it's like fighting someone with the Force. Your reflexes are sharper, you know better how to react etc etc.

Even in the PT, I'd say that Anakin benefited from surviving so many fights with Dooku. Come RotS he knew the guys fighting style, how he used the Force and had a better grasp of how to beat him. That's the concept, a Jedi in the Swtor period would have the same kind of experience against lots of Sith.

Experience is a resource just like skill and power and people with more of it are better. Put two people with equal skill and power in a ring, but one is more experienced, that guys gonna walk away more than not.

Originally posted by Sinious
Logically speaking, it should be PT Jedi>SWTOR Jedi>KOTOR Jedi

Is that really logical, or just going off of Lucas' quote?

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Brotherhood era might have better experience, but I dunno about that. Some of the BoD were kind of lame.

Problem is, especially for Jedi, there is a fine line between experience and too much experience. Endless conflict is only going to whittle down the Order's numbers, and leave less and less experienced and talented teachers to train the next generation, there is also the dark side to consider, Jedi get there power from peace and serenity, so constant conflict would literally whittle down their connection to the Force.

How much this would apply to the SWTOR era and the Revanites I cannot say.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meh, the New Sith Wars and the Ruusan Campaign really drove them into the ground, not only were they sending half trained children into battle, but they were in a Dark Age regarding technology.

Problem is, especially for Jedi, there is a fine line between experience and too much experience. Endless conflict is only going to whittle down the Order's numbers, and leave less and less experienced and talented teachers to train the next generation, there is also the dark side to consider, Jedi get there power from peace and serenity, so constant conflict would literally whittle down their connection to the Force.

How much this would apply to the SWTOR era and the Revanites I cannot say.

👆

Looking at the comic, some of those "sith" were just using ****ing spears. And yeah the Jedi were sending in children, which is terrible in so many ways.

I don't think that was an issue for the Swtor Jedi. They did have a 15 year period of peace to strengthen their resolve and deepen their connection to the Force in preparation for the inevitable conflict. I can't recall anything in the game pointing to the Jedi weakening or anything.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Is that really logical, or just going off of Lucas' quote?

First of all, do you agree with SWTOR Jedi > Kotor Jedi?

About PT>SWTOR, I'm not sure tbh. It does make sense to think it was Jedi's golden age. They had 1000 years of prosperity and peace just like SWTOR Jedi did for 300 years. The TOR force users have the advantage of wearing armor and being more combat oriented overall but skill and connection to the force wise, I'm not sure why PT wouldn't top any other era.

And of course as mentioned above, PT top dudes are better than KOTOR's and SWTOR's top dudes.

Originally posted by Sinious
First of all, do you agree with SWTOR Jedi > Kotor Jedi?

About PT>SWTOR, I'm not sure tbh. It does make sense to think it was Jedi's golden age. They had 1000 years of prosperity and peace just like SWTOR Jedi did for 300 years. The TOR force users have the advantage of wearing armor and being more combat oriented overall but skill and connection to the force wise, I'm not sure why PT wouldn't top any other era.

And of course as mentioned above, PT top dudes are better than KOTOR's and SWTOR's top dudes.

Hell yeah.

I'd say the PT had 1000 years of stagnation, isolating themselves from the galaxy, getting mired in politics and diplomacy and resting on their laurels. Personally I think that was pretty much the WHOLE point of the PT. They'd phased out Makashi because of the lack of lightsaber wielding foes and the majority of the order used Soresu, Niman or bog standard Shii-Cho. Swtor (I think) knew about the Sith still being out there and used that 300 years preparing or at least were very militarized and strong. Plus the PT had the Sith messing with the Force and tipping it in their favor, and dampening the Jedi's sight.

I'd say that's only because the PT is the village two-wheeled device of the mythos. They have ridiculously more exposure fleshing out the skills of minor characters like Plo Koon etc.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Problem is, especially for Jedi, there is a fine line between experience and too much experience. Endless conflict is only going to whittle down the Order's numbers, and leave less and less experienced and talented teachers to train the next generation, there is also the dark side to consider, Jedi get there power from peace and serenity, so constant conflict would literally whittle down their connection to the Force.

Good point.

Part of why the PT is in good shape is simply, Yoda. They've had a top expert at the force doing their training for centuries.

Even a human or similar species in top form, one just as insightful in the force as Yoda, heck even more-so, only has a few decades to pass that knowledge on, before they must hand that knowledge off to a successor who while likely skilled, still is likely a bit behind and has to spend some time catching up.

The PT Jedi, for their flaws, did have centuries for Yoda's teachings to be institutionalized, with less interruption than even eras of peace normally bring.

Originally posted by Sinious
Logically speaking, it should be PT Jedi>SWTOR Jedi>KOTOR Jedi

Curious, where would you put Legacy Jedi?

And I think there's consensus that Brotherhood of Darkness is at the bottom. Hm, and also down fairly low is Je'daii, simply because they're so new at things and have so relatively few members.

Yoda isn't the only.... whatever he is Jedi in history.

Originally posted by Sinious
First of all, do you agree with SWTOR Jedi > Kotor Jedi?

About PT>SWTOR, I'm not sure tbh. It does make sense to think it was Jedi's golden age. They had 1000 years of prosperity and peace just like SWTOR Jedi did for 300 years. The TOR force users have the advantage of wearing armor and being more combat oriented overall but skill and connection to the force wise, I'm not sure why PT wouldn't top any other era.

And of course as mentioned above, PT top dudes are better than KOTOR's and SWTOR's top dudes.

On the other hand SWTOR Jedi training is probably going to be a bit more rushed, more focused on teaching them the basics and getting them on the front lines. That said they have a mountain of experience, and that comes with effectiveness, they know how to kill, to get the job done without the fancy feints and flourishes.

On the other hand a PT Jedi will likely be more defensively orientated, and focused on disarming and neutralising opponents rather than quickly dispatching them. They'd be a lot less strength orientated as well, whereas SWTOR Jedi with that heavy armor and combat experience will be much stronger and have a higher pain threshold.

Altogether I'd guess that the SWTOR Jedi Order is going to produce a lot of simple but brutally effective and strength orientated duelists, who can take hits and deliver quick kills. People like Ven Zallow and Aryn Leener. Compare them to someone like Skywalker, a Djem So duellist but a lot more twirly twirly, more refined, but packs less punch.

I'm not sure who would win in such a confrontation, the PT Jedi may merely be overwhelmed by the brutal and powerful effectiveness of their opponent, but they might be able to exploit the flaws in a less refined style, and outmaneuver them with higher level techniques, and superior knowledge of the form.

Not sure I'd agree with your assessment. The PT Jedi were sending out children like Ahsoka on to the frontlines and even as generals. That doesn't suggest they were taking their time more than Swtor, who never did that kind of thing to my knowledge.

If anything I'd say the suddenness and surprise of the Clone Wars would cause the Jedi to scramble and rush things, vs the 15 year period of build up and preparation the Swtor Jedi got after the Treaty of Coruscant.

Also I thought Zallow used Ataru.

Meh fair point, but considering the Clone Wars only lasted 2-3 years, I doubt it would have had much of an impact. And really I think its only fair we deal with the prime/current generation i.e. minus the Younglings and Padawans in training, the next generation.

That said I would draw different conclusions for different SWTOR periods, we are talking a 40 year timespan here.

Taking the PT Jedi at the end of the Clone Wars, just prior to the GGW I'd give it to the SWTOR era, for as you said they've had a long period of peace but preparatory peace for the next Sith encounter. Mid-war I'd say they are roughly equal, for reasons stated. But only in effectiveness, not skill, I'd give that to the PT Jedi. At the end of the Cold War I'd probably give it to the SWTOR Jedi, and they've had a 10 year period of peace to build on their skills and experience.

Altogether I supposed I'd give it to the SWTOR Jedi, but I don't think the PT Jedi are that far behind.

KOTOR Jedi are right at the bottom though. 🤣

P.S. Don't know what Zallow used but Ataru is an offensive and often strength orientated style. He seems the Qui-Gon type.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also I thought Zallow used Ataru.

He did.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
P.S. Don't know what Zallow used but Ataru is an offensive and often strength orientated style. He seems the Qui-Gon type.

Not quite.

Qui-Gon used a customised variant of Ataru that addressed many of its shortcomings and was overall a far more effective fighting style. Zallow used textbook Ataru, lacking any kind of refinement or personalisation. That was a big contributing factor to his defeat.

EvanNova95 made a very good point about this. He noted that while the KOTOR-SWTOR era Jedi had more overall combat experience, one major drawback to this was that the unforgiving nature of battlefield engagements meant they really didn't have time or place to experiment with their fighting techniques. They had to adapt a "stick to what works" mentality.

Against opponents like Qui-Gon, who have had time and opportunity to experiment, innovate and refine their skills and techniques, its very likely that many KOTOR-SWTOR Jedi by comparison would be very limited and predictable in their fighting skills.

Interesting, and good point I would agree with that.

However I was more talking about how Zallow's Ataru is very much focused on strength over speed and agility, much like Qui-Gon's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hell yeah.

I'd say the PT had 1000 years of stagnation, isolating themselves from the galaxy, getting mired in politics and diplomacy and resting on their laurels. Personally I think that was pretty much the WHOLE point of the PT. They'd phased out Makashi because of the lack of lightsaber wielding foes and the majority of the order used Soresu, Niman or bog standard Shii-Cho. Swtor (I think) knew about the Sith still being out there and used that 300 years preparing or at least were very militarized and strong. Plus the PT had the Sith messing with the Force and tipping it in their favor, and dampening the Jedi's sight.

I'd say that's only because the PT is the village two-wheeled device of the mythos. They have ridiculously more exposure fleshing out the skills of minor characters like Plo Koon etc.

Why do you think SWTOR Jedi knew about the hidden sith? This is a matter I've been meaning to explore.

But anyway, I never said PT is better in every way but has the upper hand in some areas. Again, no doubt SWTOR Jedi are more battle-oriented, especially against other saber wielders/force users. However, they have the advantage of advancing in prosperity and gaining experience during the clone wars. And yes, they were more comfortable but the Jedi are not like the Sith. A thousand years of chilling wouldn't affect them as bad as it would affect the Sith. In short, I think PT has the upper hand in skill/technique and having a greater connection with the force where SWTOR has the upper hand in strength and power.

Nah, SWTOR is like the climax of TOR and PT is the climax era of the entire EU and its fitting to have the best of the best in that era imo.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I think they'd be better at different things. I think there are some definite merits to having as you say more than 1,000 years of peace to really refine and hone not only styles and techniques, but teaching methods as well. There is really no excused for a combat-orientated PT Jedi Master to know the ins and outs of their style, to have mastered all the techniques to the highest levels. So they are going to produce very refined, high level elegant duellists.

On the other hand SWTOR Jedi training is probably going to be a bit more rushed, more focused on teaching them the basics and getting them on the front lines. That said they have a mountain of experience, and that comes with effectiveness, they know how to kill, to get the job done without the fancy feints and flourishes.

On the other hand a PT Jedi will likely be more defensively orientated, and focused on disarming and neutralising opponents rather than quickly dispatching them. They'd be a lot less strength orientated as well, whereas SWTOR Jedi with that heavy armor and combat experience will be much stronger and have a higher pain threshold.

Altogether I'd guess that the SWTOR Jedi Order is going to produce a lot of simple but brutally effective and strength orientated duelists, who can take hits and deliver quick kills. People like Ven Zallow and Aryn Leener. Compare them to someone like Skywalker, a Djem So duellist but a lot more twirly twirly, more refined, but packs less punch.

I'm not sure who would win in such a confrontation, the PT Jedi may merely be overwhelmed by the brutal and powerful effectiveness of their opponent, but they might be able to exploit the flaws in a less refined style, and outmaneuver them with higher level techniques, and superior knowledge of the form.

I more or less agree with most of the stuff you said here.

Who do you think has the upper hand in usage of the force?

Originally posted by Q99

Curious, where would you put Legacy Jedi?

They're a bit weird tbh. Their top players are very impressive but I think they lack the cultural discipline of prior eras mostly due to the damage the order received with O66.

Originally posted by Sinious
I more or less agree with most of the stuff you said here.

Who do you think has the upper hand in usage of the force?

That said combat would push a Jedi to their limits, and in both RL and in fantasy worlds it's common that one's "true" strength only comes into being when really pushed, when you really need to dig deep in a life or death situation. What doesn't kill you makes your stronger. But for a Jedi it also comes with the risk of falling to or becoming clouded/unbalanced by the dark side.

Altogether I think as long as you maintain your literal cool, you're more likely to get more powerful in the Force by being pushed in combat, as opposed to meditating. So I'd give it to the SWTOR Jedi, who holistically have superior Force feats and quite tellingly really impressive feats from no-namers and minor characters.

Problem is one could argue that the PT Jedi Order had there powers lessened somewhat by the influence of the dark side. Which as an external factor makes comparison (in a neutral setting) problematic.