Originally posted by Q99
No, but he's the only member of his species that has been Grand Master for centuries preceding one of the wars.If there's another long-lived grand master of comparable force knowledge, it's during one of the long-peace periods like the gaps after the Legion of Lettow, before the Great Hyperspace War, or between TOR and the New Sith Wars.
Yes, there's definitely advantages to peace.
Probably the best Jedi are those who've had a lot of peace, but enough war to hone their blade.
Though their willingness to learn from a wide range of sources helped them adjust and gave them a large knowledge base (if at the cost of a high proportion of brushes with the dark side). They also seemed more worldly than PT Jedi, including in Cade's time.
Eh, Vandar Tokare was probably at least 300 years old at the time of his death, given 273 years before Katarr he was already training multiple apprentices at Ossus. Even 4-500 years wouldn't be a stretch imo. While Vandar is never canonically confirmed as Grand Master, it kind of seems like he was when you look at how he Vrook is the only other contender for the spot by the Mando Wars time.
Then Odan-Urr was over 1,000 at the time of his death.
Not Yoda level either of them, but KOTOR did have some experienced masters.
According to the KOTOR CG Darth Revan's Sith Empire was on par with the Galactic Empire. It states repeatedly that legions of Sith Troopers and their masters swept across the galaxy.
There are quite a few statements infact debunking the idea that the Republic was comparable in size. Which makes sense when it is stated that Revan was prepared to strike the Core Worlds which would be impossible without the Inner Rim already largely under his control.
Then consider the fact that Revan disappeared with a third of the Republic navy and then returned with a massive armada of Rakatan built Sith Interdictors as well. Then the Republic Navy had the living shit kicked out of it for years until Bastila appeared.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Republic was more powerful than the Sith Empire of the time, even with the Star Forge. And the Republic was a mess.
Npe for Revan Republic was meaningless... He could crush it with ease... The problem was the Jedi order.
" According to the KOTOR CG Darth Revan's Sith Empire was on par with the Galactic Empire. It states repeatedly that legions of Sith Troopers and their masters swept across the galaxy."
That's why letting Vitiate think that you have been mind raped or still being mind raped. (I don't know as a fan of the death note manga both seem possible...)
Was good, peace and supply from your ennmy could only be a good things.....
"Then consider the fact that Revan disappeared with a third of the Republic navy and then returned with a massive armada of Rakatan built Sith Interdictors as well. Then the Republic Navy had the living shit kicked out of it for years until Bastila appeared."
Interdictors are republican in design...
That's the guy who betray carth in KotOR one ha yhea Jimas Veltraa or nono Saul Karath who flee republic ranks with the first model ever made, Revan just let the star forge eat the ship, and then poff the star forge was able to mass produce the ship. :
Google translate quality seal of approval. You've been warn.
Contrary to what one might think, the Interdictor was not basically a pure product sith since the first model came out of the shipyards of Corellia, under the authority of the Republic. Its design was launched shortly before the assault of the Mandalorians on the Republic and for Jimas Veltraa, Republican admiral behind the project, the aim was to provide its navy's most sophisticated and most formidable ship it. There was also the desire to erase the compatibility problems between the Hammerhead cruisers and vessels Inexpugnable capital. A prototype was started in the year 3965.
Finally, the Leviathan, first-class warship Interdictor, was finished in the year - 3959. Alas, his command fell to Admiral Saul Karath who deserted just after the Republic in favor of the Sith Darth Revan controlled. Leviathan constituted RECTIFICATION HERE a gift from the admiral to the Dark lord of the sith., who had fought alongside him during the Mandalorian Wars. Darth Revan hastened to remove the model from the Star Forge, an incredible rakata factory that had the capacity to produce an infinite fleet. Once the plans ingested by the Forge, it went up the Leviathan and began to design hundreds and hundreds of replicas of the Interdictor for Sith armada.
Dserta juste après la république wich in french mean nothing have beeen translated as the same thing in english : Dersert just after the republic wich also mean nothing.
Revanchiste
" According to the KOTOR CG Darth Revan's Sith Empire was on par with the Galactic Empire. It states repeatedly that legions of Sith Troopers and their masters swept across the galaxy."
It's not, it simply isn't. It has *maybe* a fifth the territory, if that, and it's ships are a lot smaller and weaker.
Here is the Revan Empire's territory, just the yellow.
Here is the Galactic Empire, the GE including the *purple* bits (i.e. the fullest extent on that map).
The Galactic Empire could smush the Raven Empire no matter how you slice it.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh, Vandar Tokare was probably at least 300 years old at the time of his death, given 273 years before Katarr he was already training multiple apprentices at Ossus. Even 4-500 years wouldn't be a stretch imo. While Vandar is never canonically confirmed as Grand Master, it kind of seems like he was when you look at how he Vrook is the only other contender for the spot by the Mando Wars time.Then Odan-Urr was over 1,000 at the time of his death.
Not Yoda level either of them, but KOTOR did have some experienced masters.
Yes, and the PT (and beyond) has T'ra Saa as well. It's not just the presence of long-liveds, but the perfect storm of a long-lived of that power and skill at the force, at the top of the organization for so long, and spending a lot of effort training people.
Vander might've been GM by Revan's time, but that'd only be after Nomi at best, so he's only in charge for a few decades tops.
Odan-Urr was probably the closest to Yoda in influence, but they lost him with the Exar Kun war.
It's not, it simply isn't. It has *maybe* a fifth the territory, if that, and it's ships are a lot smaller and weaker.
I'm quoting SW legend here....
Keep in mind that this map is written by republican historian that have no idea of what's happeing in the unknowed region...
This map is on this website site in higher resolution :
http://assiste.free.fr/kotor_2/TimeLine.html
http://assiste.free.fr/kotor_2/images/Cartes_galactiques/Guerre_civile_des_Jedi-Seconde_guerre_des_Siths.png
We don't know if Revan empire had relation with chiss etc... We know nothing about it...
Since the day where Revan empire claim indepency over Vitiate own empire by pretexting to keep the true sith empire hidden from the republic. I don't thik that both empire where in collaboration anymore.... Revan had just gather men from Vitiate army for sure....
http://assiste.free.fr/kotor_2/effectifs_militaires_de_revan.html
Butr there is mystery about that....
Revan army real problem was bad ass Boudhists Monks that could hold a siege against an entire army of samouraïe during 11 years.....
XD (We all know that those bad ass Boudhist Monk heavly inspired George Lucas in creating the Jedi order... In the otehr hand we heavly doubts about them to be really monks... And as the Jedi are suspect to be kinda hypocrites....)
Originally posted by SelenialMeh, I guess so, I'm just attempting to make the statement make sense.
How about the fact they were completely and utterly decimated, and rebuilt on the backs of people who weren't even raised as Jedi? Mical would be the only reason the SWTOR Order survived, but even he couldn't bring them into an actual prime in 300 years. It's probably the reason they're so different as an order to everyone else.And that Campaign guide gives time periods that it covers, all ending before SWTOR.
Originally posted by Q99👆
It's not, it simply isn't. It has *maybe* a fifth the territory, if that, and it's ships are a lot smaller and weaker.Here is the Revan Empire's territory, just the yellow.
Here is the Galactic Empire, the GE including the *purple* bits (i.e. the fullest extent on that map).
The Galactic Empire could smush the Revan Empire no matter how you slice it.
I'd also like to see this accolade, as it's likely being stretched out of proportion.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meh, I guess so, I'm just attempting to make the statement make sense. 👆I'd also like to see this accolade, as it's likely being stretched out of proportion.
Here's the quote.
The reinvented Sith Empire of Darth Revan and Darth Malak is a massive galay-threatening organization on par with the Galactic Empire of the original Star Wars trilogy.
However it appears it's just meaning it's galaxy threatening for the time because it then states that at the height of its power is much like the Republic.
At the height of its power, the Sith Empire is much like the Republic in that it is highly organized and has the ability to wage war effectively against its enemies.
It seems to me it's not saying it's comparable to the GE, but it's comparable of being the GE of that timeframe.
It doesn't add up that the SE, would be on par with the GE with the great technological difference and the fact it has a much smaller occupation of space.
More to that, if it was the size of the GE and on par, the Republic wouldn't have stood any chance at all even with the Jedi. The Starforge wouldn't make that huge a difference, otherwise again how would the Republic have even lasted to even fight?
Plus with Rataka infused tech ships n such, I don't see as big a game changer because during the space battle of the Starforge, the Republic fleet was able to destroy those Rataka infused ships, and yes I know the Battle Meditation was turned against them, but the point is, that wouldn't really matter if the ships of the SE being enhanced because the ships didn't just turn back to normal after the Republic started winning.
Originally posted by Selenial
How about the fact they were completely and utterly decimated, and rebuilt on the backs of people who weren't even raised as Jedi? Mical would be the only reason the SWTOR Order survived, but even he couldn't bring them into an actual prime in 300 years. It's probably the reason they're so different as an order to everyone else.And that Campaign guide gives time periods that it covers, all ending before SWTOR.
Pretty sure they still had all the information of the Jedi and their teachings and techniques available to them, waiting on Coruscant. The Noeticons, the Tedryn Holocron, the holocron chamber and also whatever Atris had on Telos. Atris herself could likely pass on a lot of Jedi knowledge. And don't forget Bastila, we know she was able to work on the Noeticons personally and pass on her knowledge.
They lost a lot of Jedi in the purge but the actual knowledge of the order was intact. As far as I know Coruscant wasn't ever breached.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meh, I guess so, I'm just attempting to make the statement make sense. 👆I'd also like to see this accolade, as it's likely being stretched out of proportion.
I think that I underlined the complexity and the mystery of the story....
Since It was quasi minimum... It was more passive help than active one.. Still Revan gather mens and assassins.
+
http://assiste.free.fr/kotor_2/effectifs_militaires_de_revan.html
This website estimate Revan army effectives and old republic army.. Since a 1/3 of the old republic army have been given to Revan command. In order to calculate Darth Revan army's Size. you must estimate how many men that Republic can mobilized....
We know that 50.000.000 soldiers die at Malachor V.
Lien permanent3959 BBY - Darth Revan trouve la Forge Stellaire - Début de la Guerre Civile des JediEcrire
Darth Revan et Darth Malak partent de l'autre côté de la Galaxie, vers Lehon et la Forge Stellaire.
Les chemins de Revan et Arren Kae se séparent. Revan est réellement devenu Sith, sans plus aucune arrière-pensée. Arren Kae ne côtoie plus ce Revan totalement obscur et reste sur l'image qu'elle a de lui entre 3963 BBY et 3960 BBY. C'est pourquoi elle parlera encore de "sacrifice" de Revan, dans Kotor 2, en 3951 BBY, non pas par mensonge mais, plus simplement, par ignorance de ce qu'est devenu son élève bien aimé, pour qui elle a tout donné et qui lui tourne le dos (elle aura ces mots, dans lesquels pointe un peu d'amertume, en expliquant à Brianna ce que peut être la sensation de perdre la Force).
Darth Revan fabrique HK-47 (peut-être à l'aide de la Forge Stellaire).
Darth Revan et Darth Malak reviennent dans l'espace républicain à la tête d'une formidable armada de vaisseaux de guerre qu'ils fabriquent en continu, 5 fois plus vite que la République ne peut en produire, grâce à la Forge Stellaire.
Revan recrute de force des Jedi
Début de la Guerre Civile des Jedi (appelée parfois "Seconde Guerre des Siths" car la pensée officielle de la République est que Darth Revan cherche à détruire la République pour construire un nouvel ordre Sith) qui va durer 4 ans, jusqu'en 3956 BBY. En réalité, Revan, qui vient de rencontrer l'Empereur, a été totalement retourné, de force, du côté Obscur, et a reçu l'ordre de préparer la République à être accaparée par l'Empereur. Mais Revan, loin depuis plusieurs mois de l'Empereur et de son influence, a l'idée de devenir lui-même Empereur. Il lui faut préparer sa République à affronter les "Vrais Siths" et donc à être forte et cohérente, ce qu'il fait en tuant, par exemple, tous les éléments faisant courir un risque à cette cohésion (comme le Général Yusanis d'Echani en 3957 BBY, bien que l'amant de son maître, Arren Kae, car il prônait la sécession des Echani de la République).
Revan a aussi compris qu'il lui faut un maximum de manipulateurs de la Force pour affronter les Vrais Siths et se lance donc dans une vaste opération de capture de tous les Jedi pour les convertir, de force, en Sith. Ceux qui résistent sont éliminés.
Spéculation sur les objectifs réels de Revan et d'Arren Kae
Il y a, avec cette histoire de conversion massive des Jedi en Sith, en utilisant le Nexus de Trayus, un énorme problème quant à la personnalité de Revan (et à la puissance manipulatrice d'Arren Kae). Arren Kae dit deux choses :
Les Guerres Mandaloriennes n'ont été qu'une guerre de conversion (des Jedi en Sith)
La bataille de Malachor V a été planifiée par Revan pour fabriquer le Nexus de Trayus, dont il va avoir besoin pour pratiquer ces conversions massives).
On doit donc comprendre que Revan avait planifié les Guerres Mandaloriennes et la conversion des Jedi en Sith avant Malachor V. Vaincre les mandaloriens et sauver la République n'est alors pas du tout l'objectif final de Revan. Ce n'est qu'une étape pour arriver à ses fins, qui sont obscures (au sens propre comme au sens figuré du terme).
HK-47 laisse entendre que Revan avait planifié les Guerres Mandaloriennes comme une simple étape pour asservir les Jedi à sa cause (contexte de cette conversation) :
Exilé (mâle à HK-47, parlant de Revan et des Guerres Mandaloriennes
Tu essayes de me dire que Revan voulait briser les Jedi.
Ou
"On dirait qu'il... convertissait les Jedi."
HK-47
Observation : Maître, c'est là l'enseignement de Malachor.
Précision : Maître, je crois que Revan ne voyait pas dans les Mandaloriens ses véritables adversaires. Son but était de détruire les Jedi, de briser leur volonté et d'en faire ses vassaux. Vous n'avez peut-être pas étudié le bilan exact des pertes sur Malachor. Mais vous avez dû remarquer que nombre des Jedi et des soldats de la République qui y ont péri n'étaient pas les plus chauds partisans de Revan.
Constatation : A Malachor V, Revan a fait le 'ménage'. Ceux qui ont survécu sont devenus ses alliés, contre la République.
Kréia laisse entendre que Revan avait planifié la création du Nexus de Trayus et que les Guerres Mandaloriennes n'ont été qu'une simple étape vers une guerre de conversion auquel aucun Jedi ne pouvait échapper (contexte de cette conversation) :
Kreia à l'Exilé(e)
Il existe un endroit dans la galaxie où le côté Obscur de la Force est puissant. Il émane des Sith mais c'est la guerre qui l'a amplifié.
Il corrompt tous ceux qui marchent à sa surface et les noie dans le pouvoir du côté Obscur. Il corrompt la vie et se nourrit de la mort.
Revan connaissait le pouvoir de tels endroits... et avait le pouvoir de les créer. Ils peuvent être utilisés pour briser la volonté d'autrui... des Jedi, pour leur promettre le pouvoir et les faire succomber au côté Obscur.
Vous êtes-vous jamais demandé comment Revan a corrompu si vite tant de Jedi et une grande partie de la République ?
Les guerres mandaloriennes n'ont été qu'une série de massacres qui ont caché une autre guerre, une guerre de conversion.
Pour aboutir à une dernière atrocité, à laquelle aucun Jedi ne pouvait échapper... sauf un.
Et c'est ce que j'ai cherché à comprendre. Comment on pouvait se détourner d'un tel pouvoir, renoncer à la Force... et continuer à vivre.
Mais je comprends maintenant ce qui s'est passé.
C'est parce que vous n'aviez pas le choix.
Le message de Bastila, enregistré dans l'holocron trouvé dans la chambre d'Uthar (Si Revan a été déclaré personnage Obscur ayant vaincu la République), laisse entendre que ce sont les Guerres Mandaloriennes qui ont appris à Revan les techniques de conversions (contexte de cette conversation) :
Bastila
C'est une technique apprise lors de son combat contre les Mandaloriens qui lui a permis de convertir les Jedi qui combattaient à ses côtés... Et de tuer ceux qui lui ont résisté.
Revan retourne voir son premier maître
Revan, désormais Darth Revan, qui jusqu'à présent (du moins en apparence car il semble avoir basculé du Côté Obscur avant la Bataille de Malachor V qu'il avait justement planifié pour fabriquer le Nexus Obscur de Trayus) s'était simplement servi de la puissance brute Sith pour vaincre les mandaloriens et renforcer la cohésion de la République en éliminant ses éléments les moins fiables, est désormais un personnage totalement obscur.
Il est probable qu'Arren Kae dirige l'Académie de Trayus depuis 3962 BBY. Elle jouera, un temps, le rôle de Seigneur noir des « Nouveaux Siths », sous le nom de Darth Traya, au sein d'un pseudo triumvirat, très probablement à partir de 3954 BBY, juste après le départ définitif de Revan et l'abandon de ses légions de Sith dont les effectifs sont gigantesques (Calcul des effectifs militaires de la République qui suivirent Revan après la Bataille de Malachor V). Il semble que Revan ait toujours respecté Arren Kae et qu'elle reste son mentor (par exemple, cet épisode où Revan retourne voir son maître pour savoir comment quitter l'Ordre dans de bonnes conditions). Revan vient régulièrement la voir. Elle serait donc, de fait, si ce n'est de titre, le Seigneur Noir des Nouveaux Siths depuis 3960 BBY et on peut, peut-être, lui attribuer le basculement vers le côté obscur de son élève depuis 3962 BBY car elle préparerait, de longue date, sa vengeance contre l'Ordre Jedi qui l'a exilée, les Guerres Mandaloriennes n'étant qu'un épiphénomène dont elle doit attendre la fin avant de déployer tout son machiavélisme.
Originally posted by ZenwolfI see, and I would agree, there's certainly no truth in its parity with the GE.
Here's the quote.However it appears it's just meaning it's galaxy threatening for the time because it then states that at the height of its power is much like the Republic.
It seems to me it's not saying it's comparable to the GE, but it's comparable of being the GE of that timeframe.
It doesn't add up that the SE, would be on par with the GE with the great technological difference and the fact it has a much smaller occupation of space.
More to that, if it was the size of the GE and on par, the Republic wouldn't have stood any chance at all even with the Jedi. The Starforge wouldn't make that huge a difference, otherwise again how would the Republic have even lasted to even fight?
Plus with Rataka infused tech ships n such, I don't see as big a game changer because during the space battle of the Starforge, the Republic fleet was able to destroy those Rataka infused ships, and yes I know the Battle Meditation was turned against them, but the point is, that wouldn't really matter if the ships of the SE being enhanced because the ships didn't just turn back to normal after the Republic started winning.
So either your assessment or its just plain hyperbole.
Originally posted by Nephthys👆
Pretty sure they still had all the information of the Jedi and their teachings and techniques available to them, waiting on Coruscant. The Noeticons, the Tedryn Holocron, the holocron chamber and also whatever Atris had on Telos. Atris herself could likely pass on a lot of Jedi knowledge. And don't forget Bastila, we know she was able to work on the Noeticons personally and pass on her knowledge.They lost a lot of Jedi in the purge but the actual knowledge of the order was intact. As far as I know Coruscant wasn't ever breached.
Some information about PT era Jedi that is relevant for this discussion:
But while the Republic seemed strong, its institutions had begun to rot. Greedy corporations sought profits above all else and a corrupt Senate did nothing to stop them, until the corporations reduced many planets to raw materials for factories and entire species became subjects for exploitation. Individual Jedi continued to defend the Republic’s citizens and obey the will of the Force, but the Jedi Order to which they answered grew increasingly out of touch. And a new Sith mastermind, Darth Sidious, at last saw a way to restore Sith domination over the galaxy and its inhabitants, and quietly worked to set in motion the revenge of the Sith …
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Originally posted by Nephthys
Pretty sure they still had all the information of the Jedi and their teachings and techniques available to them, waiting on Coruscant. The Noeticons, the Tedryn Holocron, the holocron chamber and also whatever Atris had on Telos. Atris herself could likely pass on a lot of Jedi knowledge. And don't forget Bastila, we know she was able to work on the Noeticons personally and pass on her knowledge.They lost a lot of Jedi in the purge but the actual knowledge of the order was intact. As far as I know Coruscant wasn't ever breached.
The Coruscant Temple was entirely cleared of Jedi by the Assassins, every temple is confirmed barren in the Kotor Campaign Guide, if Coruscant was so untouchable it would not have remained so. Not to mention a very popular theory as to why the Exile was made so famous on Coruscant is that the Sith wanted to know immediately if she was to arrive.
Yes, Bastila and Atris. Atris was said to stand on trial by the new council, so I doubt she was trusted too much, though I agree that Bastila may have aided them. Surik herself also stayed on for a time to make sure the order would survive.
That does not mean they would have made it out of everything as perfectly powerful as when they came in, obviously some secrets were lost, some that may have taken as long as 3000 years to make it back to the Jedi. Dantooine was almost as large as Coruscant in terms of Jedi trained, and all of their holocrons were looted and sold after Malak destroyed the place.
Much of their history was gone.
Originally posted by Selenial
The Coruscant Temple was entirely cleared of Jedi by the Assassins, every temple is confirmed barren in the Kotor Campaign Guide, if Coruscant was so untouchable it would not have remained so. Not to mention a very popular theory as to why the Exile was made so famous on Coruscant is that the Sith wanted to know immediately if she was to arrive.Yes, Bastila and Atris. Atris was said to stand on trial by the new council, so I doubt she was trusted too much, though I agree that Bastila may have aided them. Surik herself also stayed on for a time to make sure the order would survive.
That does not mean they would have made it out of everything as perfectly powerful as when they came in, obviously some secrets were lost, some that may have taken as long as 3000 years to make it back to the Jedi. Dantooine was almost as large as Coruscant in terms of Jedi trained, and all of their holocrons were looted and sold after Malak destroyed the place.
Much of their history was gone.
The great majority of the Jedi died on Katarr and the handful who didn't immediately went into hiding. There'd be no reason for the Sith to go to Coruscant and destroy the Jedi's knowledge and I highly doubt the Republic would allow them to either. Carth at least (as an admiral) would guard the temple somewhat. Yeah, if any Jedi was dumb enough to go to the temple they'd be killed most likely, but none did and the Sith wouldn't reveal themselves in an pointless attack on the temple to destroy their knowledge and artifacts.
Atris wouldn't be trusted but she'd still have the resources she'd gathered on Telos. Sure, she had a ton of sith holocrons, but I'm sure she had a bunch of regular Jedi knowledge as well since it WAS a Jedi academy.
I think 300 years would be more than enough time to track down some stolen holocrons. Given the size and ubiquity of the Jedi by the time of Swtor they'd be able to unearth any lost knowledge pretty easily. I also doubt Dantooine had much that couldn't be found on Coruscant. Maybe some super obscure techniques that don't really impact the strength of the average Jedi at all, most likely. Everything that a standard Jedi would learn was protected. Also they're very much capable of inventing new stuff themselves.
But none of that really matters since the order still possessed the Noeticons, the Great Holocron and the Tedryn Holocron which combined possess the accumulated wisdom and knowledge of the greatest Jedi to ever live. How could they have lost much of their history when they can chat with the key figures in it whenever they want?
So I don't see anything that would make them weaker as an order to one far less militarised and much smaller. Also the Swtor Jedi rediscovered knowledge on Tython that the Kotor Jedi didn't possess.
