Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda isn't the only.... whatever he is Jedi in history.
No, but he's the only member of his species that has been Grand Master for centuries preceding one of the wars.
If there's another long-lived grand master of comparable force knowledge, it's during one of the long-peace periods like the gaps after the Legion of Lettow, before the Great Hyperspace War, or between TOR and the New Sith Wars.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
EvanNova95 made a very good point about this. He noted that while the KOTOR-SWTOR era Jedi had more overall combat experience, one major drawback to this was that the unforgiving nature of battlefield engagements meant they really didn't have time or place to experiment with their fighting techniques. They had to adapt a "stick to what works" mentality.
Yes, there's definitely advantages to peace.
Probably the best Jedi are those who've had a lot of peace, but enough war to hone their blade.
Originally posted by Sinious
[B]They're a bit weird tbh. Their top players are very impressive but I think they lack the cultural discipline of prior eras mostly due to the damage the order received with O66.
Though their willingness to learn from a wide range of sources helped them adjust and gave them a large knowledge base (if at the cost of a high proportion of brushes with the dark side). They also seemed more worldly than PT Jedi, including in Cade's time.
Re: Prequel Trilogy Jedi vs KotOR Era Jedi
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
[B]Experience: The Jedi Knights of the Knights of the Old Republic are more experienced in intense and melee/lightsaber combat based off of all available sources. The Jedi being born and fighting in the Mandalorian Wars would have known, lived, and trained in war their entire life. From the origins of the original battles in the Beast Wars to the final battle over Rakata Prime, the galaxy has been consumed in approximately 45 years of continuous and brutal warfare. They were raised in this environment, and obviously would train under the Jedi to combat the Krath, Brotherhood, Terentatek, Mandalorians, or Sith respectively. Compare this kind of extensive training to the average Jedi Knight leading into the Clone Wars who never experienced such training since no one anticipated such a large scale war to take place. Hell, besides combat sparring with their other Jedi Knights which are not accurate representations of a individuals power, the Jedi haven't fought a dueling force like the Sith for about 1,000 years. Compare 45 years of continuous warfare to 3 years of continuous warfare and you will see the Jedi of Revan's era utterly outcasses that of Mace Windu's (9x more warfare experience possible). Canonical source and extra information is supplied in the quote below:"From one end of the Knights of the Old Republic era to the other, the galaxy is constantly torn by wars, and times of peace seem more rare then times of conflict. Most of the heroes in a Knights of the Old Republic campaign will have experienced nearly a lifetime of war, and have likely felt the rippling effect of massive battles and horrific devastation. As such, the face of the galaxy is much different than in the classic era; the advent of the Clone Wars was a major event in the galaxy, while the Republic has already been weathered two major major wars by the time the Jedi Civil War begins. More then just affecting the heroes, the constant warfare plaguing the galaxy has changed the face of the planets and their populations irrecoverably. Most planets have militias and defense forces that are significantly more powerful than they would have in peacetime." --KotORCG
---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------
Skill: Lightsaber prowess has a lot to do with experience and training. Dueling is a prime component of the galaxy's culture as of Revan's time, unlike the widespread pacifists seen in the Prequel Trilogy. The excess amount of individuals training and perfecting their skills with a blade requires the Jedi Order to do the same (but only better) in order to continue to being the dominant force of peace and protection in the known galaxy. This continual practice is interwoven with the frequent encounters with Dark Jedi and Mandalorians. In fact, sourcebooks state that a "large number of Jedi" during Revan's time "become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat." This mastery with a blade is nearly impossible to achieve for the average Jedi Knight merely fighting battledroids as seen in the Clone Wars. Let's face it, fighting Mandalorians and Sith are going to make you a better warrior a lot quicker then a couple battledroids. I have yet to see a quote that considers an average Jedi Knight of the Prequel Trilogy highly skilled in any form of combat. Masters like Anakin Skywalker and Mace Windu are special for a reason. 😉 Below are additional sources that support my statements above, along with extra material added for some toppings:
"The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat." --KotORCG
"Throughout the history of the galaxy, dueling has seen many degrees of acceptability, militarily, legally, and socially. Some cultures or subcultures regard dueling as an honorable and civilized method of settling disputes, but others see dueling as barbaric. During the Knights of the Old Republic era, melee combat has resurged, forcing many to study dueling as a means to survive on the battlefield. In fact, dueling is allowed on more civilized worlds then gladiatorial combat, given the higher cultural status dueling enjoys. The melee duelist specializes in fighting a single opponent. The melee duelist selects a primary weapon of choice, studying and practicing maneuvers, feints, and tricks to perfection. Competitive duelists train with several types weapons because they may not know ahead of time which types of weapons will be used in a duel. Battlefield duelists expand their abilities to take on small groups because they cannot depend on the luxury of fighting a single opponent in the middle of a skirmish." --KotORCG
---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------
Power: This part mostly focuses on the overall hype of the Order's power and strength. I understand Lucas has labeled the Prequel Trilogy as the "prime of the Jedi," but people must understand other facts alongside that. Note how George Lucas doesn't consider the EU canonical, and therefore would not take it into account when doing such a quote. If you listen to the context of the quote, he is specifically comparing the Prequel Trilogy to that of the Original Trilogy. He is not however comparing the Prequel Trilogy to all of the different eras of Star Wars that had powerful Jedi in them. Eras like Knights of the Old Republic or The Old Republic have been entirely war based, it is basically impossible for the Prequel Trilogy to be up with them as fast as Episode 1 where the only notable wars the Jedi have fought in before then was the Stark Hyperspace War. 🙄 And honestly, that quote is hilariously outdated (I believe said in 1998). In the time since then, entire eras of Jedi have been formed, all of which are fighting far more brutal and skilled opponents then that of battledroids: KotOR, TOR, LotF, and Legacy. As anticipated, new sources have seemingly retconed those ideas. Multiple sources state that the Jedi Order during Revan's time was the combat prime of the Jedi, which also makes the most logical sense given all the opponents they are constantly fighting. Suggesting the normal Jedi of the Prequel Trilogy being more powerful is simply illogical. Revan's era needs superior Jedi in order to fight a superior fighting force. Below are merely a handful of quotes praising the Knights of the Old Republic era:
"During this time, the Jedi Order is at the summit of its power and self-confidence... Knights of the Old Republic campaigns take place against a backdrop that captures everything that makes Star Wars unique. Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime. They do battle with the evil Sith, and defend the galaxy against the Mandalorian hordes." --KotORCG
The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat." --KotORCG
"Long before the Galactic Civil War, an epic drama begins. Engage in this saga set in the Golden Age of the Republic - over 4,000 years before the first Star Wars film, when both Jedi and Sith number in the thousands. With the Galaxy reeling from a recent conflict with the Dark Lords, the ongoing battle between the Jedi and the Sith rages on. Your actions determine the outcome of this colossal galactic war - and your destiny as a Jedi." --KotOR
---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------
Summary: Greater experience, skill, and power of the Knights of the Old Republic Jedi grants them an overall edge over the Prequel Trilogy Jedi. The Jedi of the Clone Wars simply don't have what is needed to go up against warriors who's life revolves around warfare. I don't see how it is possible an average Jedi Knight of the Clone Wars can come out on top more then vice-versa with these factors. Training to combat battledroids is not comparable to Dark Jedi and Mandalorians. Thank you for reading - May the Force be with you. [/B]
ToR Jedi era have a much more chance towin since their military power is key in the sith war....
Where KotOR and ToR era are golden era.... Where the Jedi is order certainly not in good health for leading a war alone....
Sûre prequel era Jedi have paryicipated to the clone war.. but in comparaison to the clone army their help was nothing... I mean seperatist had only 3 Jedi killers XD so.....
In the other hand KotOR era Jedis were helpfull in the mandalorian war, despite the fact that the order was clearky weaken, and only an half of the order particpated.
But the repoublic was so weak in comparaison of the mandaloirans. Any help could be usefull....
And even if in the Jedi civil war Revan seam to wage war against the Jedi order not against the republic....
But in the other hand the order have been weaken by those war....
Ha kofkof the diner was kof arrrrf spicy.. So where AM I.. Yhea...
Do not forget that Prequel Jedi train themself... Sure they merely fight whinny assholes, and battle droïds... And training against a foe that doesn't want to kill you or is not as vicious as a sith, is poutifull, in the other hand they enhance the pratice, they can perfect their technic... Try new tricks....
O.K May the greatest champion of KotOR era like Revan, reach a level of mastery were they can easly test news tricks on the battle field..... But... Wait a minute? How many champion like that have prequel Jedi order...?
O.K nevermind KotOR era get the point.
https://youtu.be/Cf8Jj_GuJ3E?t=385
No not this one.. The one were it talk about how massiv the Jedi order was... Dammit...
Revanchiste
Sûre prequel era Jedi have paryicipated to the clone war.. but in comparaison to the clone army their help was nothing... I mean seperatist had only 3 Jedi killers XD so.....
More than that. Dooku, Grievous, Asajj, Sora Bulq, Durge, Maul, Savage, and some lesser Dark Jedi like Tol Skorr.
Plus even droids, especially the higher ones like droideka and magnaguards, were threats. Magnaguard definitely made Jedi brush up on dueling skill!
Beniboybling My point is that there is no reason to believe the Jedi were no longer in their prime come the GGW. The fact that it doesn't include SWTOR is irrelevant, considering SWTOR did not at this time exist.
ares834 Sure there was. The became near extinct during KotOR 2...
Both true points, but I think the three hundred years after was enough time to recover pretty well (I mean, Luke's order got up to proper order size in just one century). Heck, TOR is the most rawly numerous period of force users. Because they knew they were facing sith they recruited many, but unlike the New Sith Wars, had the time and capability to actually train them.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
My point is that there is no reason to believe the Jedi were no longer in their prime come the GGW. The fact that it doesn't include SWTOR is irrelevant, considering SWTOR did not at this time exist.
How about the fact they were completely and utterly decimated, and rebuilt on the backs of people who weren't even raised as Jedi? Mical would be the only reason the SWTOR Order survived, but even he couldn't bring them into an actual prime in 300 years. It's probably the reason they're so different as an order to everyone else.
And that Campaign guide gives time periods that it covers, all ending before SWTOR.
"By the war's end barely a hundred Jedi remained."
So yes it was largely the Jedi Civil War and Revan's Sith Empire that did it, not surprising considering that Revan's Empire was on par with the Galactic Empire as per the KOTOR CG.
The Triumvirate was essentially the extension of that Empire after Malak but without the Star Forge.
I'm not seeing how Revan's Sith Empire is on par with the GE, Revan's Empire only covered 1/3rd of the known galaxy at the time, with many planets being in contest between it and the Republic. The GE was far bigger and had a greater technological advantage, unless the quote is meaning as far as threatening goes of that time it's comparable in that timeframe.
The only thing the SE of the time would have over the GE, would be the Starforge and it's mass production capability, but this alone wouldn't be enough as the GE does also have mass production capability, it probably wouldn't be as fast. But considering the standing GE military without mass producing anything, it would still be gigantic, considering the scale of the GE.