Ziost Vitiate vs. the Daughter

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Her belief. She never faced Darth Sidious.
---
A claim.

Vitiate's actions on Ziost confirm that he is a threat to the entire galaxy.

"No one person - not even Revan - can truly destroy the Emperor. He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy."

From ([b]Darth Marr, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan)[/B]

😂 😂 😂

Originally posted by ILS
>discredits opposing argument for using in-universe evidence
>character statement from Darth Marr used as confirmation

😂 😂 😂

In contrast, Tahiri have no experience with Darth Sidious. She doesn't understands how powerful Sidious had become, she feels overwhelmed in her experiences with Abeloth.

Laugh at your own stupidity.

What evidence does Marr have?

Originally posted by ILS
What evidence does Marr have?

Darth Marr have directly served Vitiate for decades and have absolute understanding of his power and history. He guides protags in matters concerning Vitiate.

You would have known if you have played SWTOR and concentrated on its lore.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Marr have directly served Vitiate and have absolute understanding of his power and history.

Originally posted by ILS
Got a quote for that?

Darth Marr also opposed Revan's actions on Yavin IV because he understood that Vitiate posed threat to the entire galaxy and his revival won't be good for anybody. And his concerns have been proven valid by developments on Ziost.

As I said, if you haven't played latest expansions of SWTOR, you are not in the position to judge Marr's credibility.

Yeah, nothing in that message indicates Marr has "absolute understanding" of Vitiate's power, or evidence that he can and will consume the galaxy. The fact he flat out states that Vitiate is perhaps more powerful than they had already assumed, indicates he had no concrete evidence to begin with, just a false assumption. Marr disapproving of reviving Vitiate doesn't indicate he has "absolute understanding" either - it's common sense that reviving Vitiate is a bad idea.

Originally posted by ILS
Yeah, nothing in that message indicates Marr has "absolute understanding" of Vitiate's power, or evidence that he can and will consume the galaxy. The fact he flat out states that Vitiate is perhaps more powerful than they had already assumed, indicates he had no concrete evidence to begin with, just a false assumption. Marr disapproving of reviving Vitiate doesn't indicate he has "absolute understanding" either - it's common sense that reviving Vitiate is a bad idea.

Marr claimed that Vitiate would consume all life in the galaxy in time. And this is correct. If Vitiate is not stopped, he will consume all life in the galaxy in time. PERIOD.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Marr is an authority on Vitiate from storytelling perspective.

You are not and your subjectivity have no merit.

Marr claimed that Vitiate would consume all life in the galaxy in time. And this is correct.

Originally posted by ILS
Based on what?

Originally posted by ILS
Hence why all I did was point out your double standard instead of evaluating Vitiate.

Darth Marr have served Vitiate for decades. This is ample time to understand and evaluate someone.

Originally posted by ILS
Maybe, maybe not - fact is, you're treating a character statement with little basis alone as factual evidence, while writing off similar sources for the opposition. That's just poor debating, my friend.

Poor debating is that you are putting Tahiri and Marr in the same basket without considering additional factors that determine their credibility.

Suppose that you get to consult two persons for holocaust topic. One have experience with holocaust and one does not. Would you consider views of both as equally reliable? In current times, some even deny that holocaust happened.

Works of BioWare.

What double-standard? Does Tahiri Veila have experience with Darth Sidious? Does she?

Darth Marr have served Vitiate for decades. This is ample time to understand and evaluate someone.

Little basis? What is stopping Vitiate from consuming biota of each planet until the deed is done?

Poor debating is that you are putting Tahiri and Marr in the same basket without considering additional factors that determine their credibility.

Suppose that you get to consult two persons for holocaust topic. One have experience with holocaust and one does not. Would you consider views of both as equally reliable?

In current times, some even deny that holocaust happened.

..unless they're Darth Marr, that is.

Originally posted by ILS
That doesn't aid your argument.

Originally posted by ILS
Your claim is that Marr has factual, indisputable evidence that Vitiate can and will consume the galaxy. I'm asking for that evidence. Him serving Vitiate for decades, and then falsely assuming how powerful he is during the Yavin IV incident, isn't much of a foundation to stand on, is it?

Falsely assuming? Vitiate consumed planet Ziost, didn't he? A planet is likely to have billions of life forms. Vitiate can repeat this process on each planet. Also, the more he consumes, the more powerful he becomes.

Vitiate's actions on Ziost surprised Marr in the sense that Vitiate is likely to consume all life in the galaxy at a faster pace then he originally imagined.

You are wrong. Marr is not.

Originally posted by ILS
That's what you call a no limits fallacy, my friend.
I wouldn't consider them equally reliable just like I don't consider Tahiri and Marr equally reliable; but without evidence I won't consider Marr to be a factual source. This is pretty basic stuff.

Marr have credibility because he had ample time to evaluate Vitiate.

Marr's assertion is substantiated by Vitiate's actions on Ziost.

Originally posted by ILS
And they'd be wrong.

..unless they're Darth Marr, that is.

AGAIN:

Suppose that you get to consult two persons for holocaust topic. One have experience with holocaust and one does not. Would you consider views of both as equally reliable? In current times, some even deny that holocaust happened.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Star Wars - The Ultimate Visual Guide - Updated and Expanded release date is April 30, 2012. It contains very limited information about Vitiate.

Star Wars - The Old Republic - Encyclopedia release date is October 15, 2012. It contains detailed information about Vitiate and promotes him as the most powerful Force-user ever.

I'm aware of all this - TOR: Encyclopedia doesn't consider events beyond TOR, by the way, such as those form future eras (ie. Darth Sidious) or beings like the Ones. And no, mentioning the Celestials doesn't mean it considers the Ones, because they're not synonymous.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A claim.

Vitiate's actions on Ziost confirm that he is a threat to the entire galaxy.

"No one person - not even Revan - can truly destroy the Emperor. He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy."

From (Darth Marr, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan)

Please explain to me why Darth Marr - who has no personal experience with the Emperor, only knows of his intentions from second hand sources, and has no means of accurately gauging the extent of Vitiate's abilities - is a more reliable source of information than the Father, informing Anakin on his abilities of his own children, when he possesses, in your words, an absolute understanding of their power and history - by merit of having witnessed every stage of their existence and growth of their abilities over countless millenia.

Fact is we have no reason to doubt the Father, none at all, we have plenty of reasons to doubt Marr, and yet despite that you treat his words as gospel, but reject the Father's "a claim." Marr is not an accurate source on the Emperor's capabilities, he possesses no means of objectively discerning what Vitiate is capable of and has in fact been mistaken and flabbergasted in the past:

“He did not assume a physical form or possess a body. And he left as soon as he appeared. None of it makes sense!”

He is the one making "claims" here.

Marr is just as confused and as in the dark as everyone else, he knows no more than anybody else does, only that Vitiate plans to consume the galaxy, and possesses incredible power, that is not enough to validate his assertions. As of yet, there exists no proof that the Vitiate can in fact consume the entire galaxy via ritual full stop, only claims and assumption, so there is no way Marr possesses such proof.

Marr basically admitted his deficiency of knowledge of the Emperor when the Emperor left Yavin IV - and he didn't have any canonical relationships with the Emperor either. He's not a reliable source on the Emperor, lol.

Only the Emperor's hands really have any idea, though Darth Jadus seemed to understand what was coming and hid in the far edges of the galaxy accordingly.

BTW, Leland's quote about the Father being the most powerful Force user came after the Encyclopedia, IIRC. So... yeah.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Canon continuity.

On top of that the Father has said:

"My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other."

The Father having existing long before and during Vitiate's time and being very much in tune and attentive to the cosmic balance of the galaxy, and therefore presumably aware of any and all powerful beings who might effect it.

"The Force always strives for balance. The Emperor is an agent of darkness and destruction. It is inevitable that a champion of the light will one day rise to oppose him. I may be that champion."

Vitiate certainly fulfills that criteria.

And by your own actions you've admitted that its status as a claim in itself is not alone valid reason for dismissing it, and beyond that, we have no reason for believing the Father's claim false.

And just to reinforce the influence of the Ones on the Force as valid:

Source: StarWars.com

Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ahsoka Tano investigated the kilometers-wide artifact, and were drawn into a paradise realm inhabited by unspeakably powerful Force-wielders. These god-like beings were locked in an eternal struggle for dominance, which made Mortis the fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force.

Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

Long ago, the Ones withdrew from the galaxy to avoid ruining it with their Force powers.

Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

As the Daughter dies, the Force beings to fall out of balance. Using her last strength, the Daughter serves as a channel for the Force, releasing her ebbing life energies to revive Ahsoka and remove the dark side's stain.

Those are both from an objective sources. Vitiate's influence on the Force has never been stated to be as profound, because it is not.

Finally all of the Ones possess the ability to shut off lightsabers. Vitiate, evidently, does not:

/debate

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm aware of all this - TOR: Encyclopedia doesn't consider events beyond TOR, by the way, such as those form future eras (ie. Darth Sidious) or beings like the Ones. And no, mentioning the Celestials doesn't mean it considers the Ones, because they're not synonymous.

It had been theorized by Jedi and Sith alike that balance between the light and dark sides was actually under the guidance of a group of discorporate entities—the ones called the Celestials, perhaps—who had merged themselves with the Force thousands of generations earlier, and had continued to guide the fate of the galaxy ever since. In effect, a higher order of intermediaries, whose powers were beyond the understanding of mortal beings. But many Sith viewed the notion with disdain, for the theoretical existence of such a group had little bearing on the goal of making the Force subservient to the will of an enlightened elite. Only the Sith understood that sentient life was on the verge of a transformative leap; that through the manipulation of midi-chlorians—or the overthrow of the Forceful group that supervised them—the divide between organic life and the Force could be bridged, and death could be erased from the continuum.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

---

The Ones facilitated in construction of Centerpoint Station

Originally posted by Beniboybling
From the Father himself. 🙄 As Swords has rightly pointed out, this is a complete doubled standard.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Please explain to me why Darth Marr - who has no personal experience with the Emperor, only knows of his intentions from second hand sources, and has no means of accurately gauging the extent of Vitiate's abilities - is a more reliable source of information than the Father, informing Anakin on his abilities of his own children, when he possesses, in your words, an absolute understanding of their power and history - by merit of having witnessed every stage of their existence and growth of their abilities over countless millenia.

Just stop. I won't bother addressing a point which is based on utter falsehood.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fact is we have no reason to doubt the Father, none at all, we have plenty of reasons to doubt Marr, and yet despite that you treat his words as gospel, but reject the Father's "a claim." Marr is not an accurate source on the Emperor's capabilities, he possesses no means of objectively discerning what Vitiate is capable of and has in fact been mistaken and flabbergasted in the past:

“He did not assume a physical form or possess a body. And he left as soon as he appeared. None of it makes sense!”

He is the one making "claims" here.

Marr is just as confused and as in the dark as everyone else, he knows no more than anybody else does, only that Vitiate plans to consume the galaxy, and possesses incredible power, that is not enough to validate his assertions. As of yet, there exists no proof that the Vitiate can in fact consume the entire galaxy via ritual full stop, only claims and assumption, so there is no way Marr possesses such proof.

Darth Marr have served Vitiate for decades and does have ample knowledge of his capabilities. Yes, he underestimated Vitiate but this doesn't means that he have no credibility on the subject. He guides protags in matters concerning Vitiate.

Ziost related developments convinced Marr that Vitiate was more capable then he imagined earlier. This by no means implies lack of knowledge.

And what is wrong the statement below?

"He did not assume a physical form or possess a body. And he left as soon as he appeared. None of it makes sense!"

Do you see Vitiate taking a form on Ziost?

Marr, irrespective of his limited knowledge, assessed that Vitiate would consume the entire galaxy in time, and this assessment is not off the mark.