Originally posted by Astner
I'm not. I have no reason to believe or think about whether or not the Biblical representation of God was intended to be omnipotent.
But then you believe that god is omnipotent. Therefore it is appropriate for someone to talk about god's omnipotence without the word ever being in the bible.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Digi, check this out:
This is fascinating, thanks! I'd argue - and my guess is that the scientists involved in the experiment would as well - that this still only represents 1 of about 10-12 scientific steps that are in need of proving before we can consider libertarian free will a plausible possibility. Off the top of my head, do we know quantum reactions such as the one in the controlled experiment take place within the brain? And are these reactions on a scale that could meaningfully affect our decisions (or are they too small to matter)? More immediately, can their results be verified and repeated by others? And are there other explanations that don't involve backward causality that need to be considered alongside their theory? There are undoubtedly others.
I'm not throwing a wet blanket over your take here. It's worth further investigation and is interesting to think about. These sorts of studies - and these sort of discussions - represent the type of thinking on free will that I think is valuable to the public discourse. I'm just advocating proper caution before leaping to undue conclusions.
Originally posted by Digi
This is fascinating, thanks! I'd argue - and my guess is that the scientists involved in the experiment would as well - that this still only represents 1 of about 10-12 scientific steps that are in need of proving before we can consider libertarian free will a plausible possibility. Off the top of my head, do we know quantum reactions such as the one in the controlled experiment take place within the brain? And are these reactions on a scale that could meaningfully affect our decisions (or are they too small to matter)? More immediately, can their results be verified and repeated by others? And are there other explanations that don't involve backward causality that need to be considered alongside their theory? There are undoubtedly others.I'm not throwing a wet blanket over your take here. It's worth further investigation and is interesting to think about. I'm just advocating proper caution before leaping to undue conclusions.
I totally agree. The experiment needs to be repeated in many different ways before any true conclusion can be made, but it makes me think.
Originally posted by Surtur
Simple question, this isn't about whether or not God exists. For the purposes of this thread it will be assumed he does in some form. I've seen a lot of religious people say God is omnipotent and omniscient. These aren't just the "crazy" religious people that do things like take the bible seriously. I also have no problem with this because obviously if he is God he should be omnipotent and omniscient.But it made me think about free will. If God already knows everything that will happen, it means he would of known that even before he created humanity. If we are created with him already knowing everything we will do, do we have actual free will?
i am a Christian, i believe in God, Christ and Holy Spirit... but i don't believe that God knows all:
"You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."
Deuteronomy 13:3
and i don't believe that God can do everything:
"That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us."
Hebrews 6:18
Originally posted by dyajeep
i am a Christian, i believe in God, Christ and Holy Spirit... but i don't believe that God knows all:"You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for [b]the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God
with all your heart and with all your soul."
Deuteronomy 13:3and i don't believe that God can do everything:
"That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us."
Hebrews 6:18 [/B]
Nice.
👆
This is something similar to what I believe. He isn't purely omniscient or omnipotent.
Re: If God is omniscient, does free will exist?
Originally posted by Surtur
Simple question, this isn't about whether or not God exists. For the purposes of this thread it will be assumed he does in some form. I've seen a lot of religious people say God is omnipotent and omniscient. These aren't just the "crazy" religious people that do things like take the bible seriously. I also have no problem with this because obviously if he is God he should be omnipotent and omniscient.But it made me think about free will. If God already knows everything that will happen, it means he would of known that even before he created humanity. If we are created with him already knowing everything we will do, do we have actual free will?
It depends upon how you define omniscience. If the latter entails God knowing the future before it happens, i.e. absolute determinism, then free will cannot exist. If the latter entails knowledge over everything as it occurs in the universe of space-time as a creative emanation and activity of God that plays itself out in serial time wherein the human being is allowed to partake in this process as a free and willing being, i.e. the future does not exist until it happens and becomes the present, then it can.
Originally posted by dyajeep
i am a Christian, i believe in God, Christ and Holy Spirit... but i don't believe that God knows all:"You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for [b]the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God
with all your heart and with all your soul."
Deuteronomy 13:3and i don't believe that God can do everything:
"That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us."
Hebrews 6:18 [/B]
Good lord, you really do make up your own rules..
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord
Jeremiah 1:4-5 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.
Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
Job 42:2 I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose
Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Psalm 138:8 The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own
Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
Romans 9:20-21 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...
Originally posted by AndrewBolt
No, not at all, but those who believe make up the best excuses as to how it's possible.
BS. The fact that God knows how it will all turn out doesn't change the fact that people still have a choice in their actions. You non-believers pathetic attempts at confusing people is so sad.
Originally posted by Star428
BS. The fact that God knows how it will all turn out doesn't change the fact that people still have a choice in their actions. You non-believers pathetic attempts at confusing people is so sad.
Wrong. If god is 'god' (i.e. creator of ALL things) and god has knowledge of his entire plan, from beginning to end, how can anyone have free will?
If god knows now whether you are going to hell or not when you die... is there anything you can do to change this outcome?
It's "BS" for you because filthy apologists have no answer for it.
Originally posted by Ayelewis
Wrong. If god is 'god' (i.e. creator of ALL things) and god has knowledge of his entire plan, from beginning to end, how can anyone have free will?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The original bible didn't use any English words.I'm glad you don't believe that the god of the bible is omnipotent. This is something we can agree on. But most Christians would disagree with you.
We agree the Bible never says anything about omnipotence and that the Myths are not to take the blame on things they never said?
Originally posted by Astner
So if I offer you a piece of pie and I know you'll accept it, does that mean that you didn't have a choice in accepting it?
Yes, that's precisely what it means. As far as pie goes, if you offer a piece to a thousand people and you guess right every time, it's something other than a guess. Some people might dislike your pie and they are indistinguishable from others. Unless you have some way of negating free will there's no way for you to know anything. It's a guess that will inevitably be wrong.
I know that everyone now living (and who will be alive a week from now) will take a breath of air in the next few minutes. I know that everyone now living (and who will be alive a week from now) will urinate in the next few days. It's not free will.
Why you Christian religious types continue with your ridiculous analogies is something I don't know but it makes no sense and never has. If the future is known without error, there's no way I can do other than what the Great Knower knows.
Originally posted by Ayelewis
Why you Christian religious types continue with your ridiculous analogies is something I don't know but it makes no sense and never has. If the future is known without error, there's no way I can do other than what the Great Knower knows.
Analogies is a legitimate way of understanding things, it very much makes a lot of sense to use that potential. In the other hand, fallacious arguments that are based on abstract ideas can be literaly nonsensical.
You're barking at the wrong tree here.
Originally posted by Bentley
We agree the Bible never says anything about omnipotence and that the Myths are not to take the blame on things they never said?
The bible is say that god was omnipotent, but it didn't us that word. The meaning is the same.
To be literal, the bible never used any English words until it was translated.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The bible is say that god was omnipotent, but it didn't us that word. The meaning is the same.To be literal, the bible never used any English words until it was translated.
If the concept of omnipotence didn't exist (to the relevant transcriptors) when the Bible was written then you can't just say it was "meant" to be that.
Omnipotence is not just an English word, is a concept with philosophical bagagge that is linked with centuries of argumentation all over the civilized word. You just don't assume things fit that kind of cultural overcomplexification, specially not without backing.