The "if it helps one woman..." type of argument is always a dead end. It is not morally right to mass market a product based on extreme fringe cases- that stops being about safety and just about exploiting fears for money. In this particular case, I think it very likely gives people a false sense of safety against a very small problem at the very likely expense of awareness of a much bigger one, so ultimately this product could end up hurting far more than the theoretical 'one woman saved' idea.
Take a look at this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6440589/Date-rape-drink-spiking-an-urban-legend.html
You see here how the fear of incredibly rare drugs is definitely taking the focus away from the very real alcohol issue. This is all part of that.
In particular this:
The reason why fear of drink-spiking has become widespread seems to be a mix of it being more convenient to guard against than the effects of alcohol itself and the fact that such stories are exotic – like a more adult version of 'stranger danger
and
We would be very interested in finding out whether the urban myth of spiking is also the result of parents feeling unable to discuss with their adult daughters how to manage drinking and sex and representing their anxieties about this through discussion of drink spiking risks.
Selling so-called counters to date rape drugs entrenches rather than deals with the issue.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The "if it helps one woman..." type of argument is always a dead end. It is not morally right to mass market a product based on extreme fringe cases- that stops being about safety and just about exploiting fears for money. In this particular case, I think it very likely gives people a false sense of safety against a very small problem at the very likely expense of awareness of a much bigger one, so ultimately this product could end up hurting far more than the theoretical 'one woman saved'. idea.Take a look at this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6440589/Date-rape-drink-spiking-an-urban-legend.html
Yu see here how the fear of incredibly rare drugs is definitely taking the focus away from the very real alcohol issue. This is all part of that.
In particular this:
[b]We would be very interested in finding out whether the urban myth of spiking is also the result of parents feeling unable to discuss with their adult daughters how to manage drinking and sex and representing their anxieties about this through discussion of drink spiking risks.
Selling so-called counters to date rape drugs entrenches rather than deals with the issue. [/B]
Okay, first of all, I was obviously exaggerating. A smaller number of women would be helped, yes, but I think that's still a substantial enough amount to warrant mass marketing something like this, because people WILL drink, whether we want them to or not.
Like I said, drink culture is a huge problem. I just think there's room for both. I never argued that fear of hard drugs was taking away focus from alcohol. It is. I just think there's room for both to be approached.
Edit because you edited: Like I said, I think both can be approached. You can't just ignore the problems with hard drugs and put all your energy in to discouraging people from drinking too much either.
First of all, you are fooling yourself if you think effort is infinite. Resources get split. What people pay attention to gets split. Promoting one message is always stronger than promoting two.
Secondly, that being so, if one problem is tiny and the other huge, then by a long way the reasonable and logical approach is to focus on the huge issue. Focussing on both does, overall, less good. In this case, there is a danger that focussing on drug rape- resulting in mass exaggeration and false perception- actually harms the broader focus on date rape in general.
Thirdly, no, I don't think this will help anything like enough women to justify its existence (because a. the problem does not really exist in the way the product advertises and b. because its effectiveness as a counter is questionable), and it will indeed distract from the actual issue, thus potentially endangering women.
There is no perfect world where you cover all the bases. Good-intentioned things often conflict.
In this case, this is dangerously buying into a myth that people will feel a false sense of security about- that is always dangerous.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
First of all, you are fooling yourself if you think effort is infinite. Resources get split. What people pay attention to gets split. Promoting one message is always stronger than promoting two.Secondly, that being so, if one problem is tiny and the other huge, then by a long way the reasonable and logical approach is to focus on the huge issue. Focussing on both does, overall, less good. In this case, there is a danger that focussing on drug rape- resulting in mass exaggeration and false perception- actually harms the broader focus on date rape in general.
Thirdly, no, I don't think this will help anything like enough women to justify its existence (because a. the problem does not really exist in the way the product advertises and b. because its effectiveness as a counter is questionable), and it will indeed distract from the actual issue, thus potentially endangering women.
There is no perfect world where you cover all the bases. Good-intentioned things often conflict.
In this case, this is dangerously buying into a myth that people will feel a false sense of security about- that is always dangerous.
Nobody is suggesting resources or effort are infinite. At least, I'm not.
So you can't give 5-10% of resources towards something like this, especially when we already have massive campaigns in both Ireland and England to discourage heavy drinking?
Also considering that anti-rape campaigns are generally kept separate from "drink sensibly" campaigns in the first place.
The campaigns against heavy drinking still are not enough (they are also mis-managed, which is a separate issue). This remains a massive problem. So yes- definitely and without reservation, diverting 5-10% away to a tiny issue (I would say a fraction of one percent is its proportion) is dangerous- you harm more than you hurt. Remember they do not work in co-operation- the lurid and exotic nature of drug rape stories actively hurts the alcohol message (because alcohol is, basically, boring).
Selling products like this gives a false sense of security. Though to be honest, this product is too much of a small and trivial thing in of itself to be a big issue- it's just why I don't like it. It's representative of a bigger problem.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The campaigns against heavy drinking still are not enough (they are also mis-managed, which is a separate issue). This remains a massive problem. So yes- definitely and without reservation, diverting 5-10% away to a tiny issue (I would say a fraction of one percent is its proportion) is dangerous- you harm more than you hurt. Remember they do not work in co-operation- the lurid and exotic nature of drug rape stories actively hurts the alcohol message (because alcohol is, basically, boring).Selling products like this gives a false sense of security. Though to be honest, this product is too much of a small and trivial thing in of itself to be a big issue- it's just why I don't like it. It's representative of a bigger problem.
The campaigns against drinking aren't enough, you're right, but they still, at least that I'm aware, get a lot more exposure than anti-drug or anti-rape campaigns. When I do sit down to watch TV on the odd occasion, I can't go two ad breaks without seeing an ad directed at discouraging people from heavy drinking.
Anyone who thinks that it's okay to drink heavily and then can turn around and say "oh, im wearing this nail polish, it's fine." isn't really the kind of person this product benefits anyway.
That said, I still think they can co-exist, especially seeing as how date-rape stories tend to focus, at least that I've seen, on the rape itself, and don't talk about cracking down on stuff like cocaine etc.
Originally posted by -Pr-Yeah.
Anyone who thinks that it's okay to drink heavily and then can turn around and say "oh, im wearing this nail polish, it's fine." isn't really the kind of person this product benefits anyway.
If someone is buying this special nail polish then you'd think it'd make them pretty worried about getting into a state where they get taken advantage of.
Also the biggest story around where I am was this guy spiking some virgin or something's drink and then getting the shit kicked out of him after he was done with her. She was a mess and someone was tending to her in a trailer (it was a huge party at the lake). I saw her before and after. Plus I've heard of a lot of cases of it but the people were so big into drugs that they didn't care. It's not like it doesn't exist. Hell my straight arrow male friend got drugged once. He did not know what was going on.
The nail polish is just trying to help some girls. It's a well intentioned product by people that think it will help. It's not going to stop alcholism or just outright rape but it will help in some capacity or at the very least make you extra careful. Also it's nail polish. You can't expect miracles from paint. It's not meant to be a cure all, it's just meant to help.
This is the coolest thing i've ever seen you post.
The nail polish is just trying to help some girls. It's a well intentioned product by people that think it will help. It's not going to stop alcholism or just outright rape but it will help in some capacity or at the very least make you extra careful. Also it's nail polish. You can't expect miracles from paint. It's not meant to be a cure all, it's just meant to help.
Originally posted by Bardock42
There's also cards you can use to test whether a drink has been drugged. Of course it can't be the duty of women to carry such things and test every drink they take, but if a woman wants to do that it's good she has the option.I understand the worry that the lady from Rape Crisis voices, people always put blame on victims and this may be another piece in their arsenal to accuse women of failing to do. Obviously it is 100% the rapist or assaulters fault, and there's no blame to be put on the woman regardless of the circumstances. But that's sadly not how it often plays out.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I assume her reaction is based on dealing with rape cases and experiencing this blaming of rape victims first hand. So her view may be tainted by that and she wants to proactively come out and reiterate that while this option exists not using it doesn't and shouldn't put any blame on victims (which I'm sure has already happened by now).
I'll just second all this.
A lot of people view "how to deal with rape?" as something that should be answered with, "What tools can we give to women...?" (which isn't likely to reduce the actual numbers much, because rapists shift focus to more vulnerable targets), rather than, "How can we educate people- especially men- on how consent works and not to rape?"
I mean, the nailpolish is cool and all, but something like the Don't Be That Guy campaign cut rapes in an area by 10%, with posters. Think about that! Just putting up posters advising people what rape is, and telling them not to, had a double-digit percentage reduction.
The most effective method is education, and people should be aware of that, and the nailpolish, while neat, is the type of thing that some people would rather focus on instead of education.