Sidious was the one who oversaw the creation of the CIS and Republic militaries (those were the galaxywide militaries I referenced). In fact, he was the one who oversaw the creation of the CIS entirely.
Whereas Vitiate had a lot more to play with directly and could do so "openly." And it still took 14 centuries.
Vitiate doesn't really register next to Sheev's political and strategic achievements tbh.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He had to build everything from scratch. Conquer the entire empire from one planet and a handful of ships. A vast expanse of space that he owned none of and need to spend centuries bringing together. Sidious just cooped already existing things and then developed them. Of course it takes a lot less time, because he doesn't have to literally build all these things up from dust and he has a lot more to manage because he already has an entire galaxies worth of resources to call upon.All Sidious had to do is get himself elected Chancellor and then make a speech to become emperor. Vitiate had to actually build an empire to become one.
That Vitiate possessed an army of dark siders and the remnants of the preceding Sith Empire is testament that he didn't have to "literally build all these things up." He simply had to grow it further.
Sidious had to similarly create the Confederacy, which didn't exist prior, and arm it by manipulating various foundry worlds and commercial entities. And he had to do all that from the belly of the beast, navigating bureaucracy in such a way as to avoid suspicion. To say nothing of how meticulously he arranged the rise of specific individuals, from Poggle the Lesser to Nute Gunray. Then, through Dooku, orchestrate the secessionist movement.
Then he had to arrange the development of the clone army and its military force.
If Sidious could have done all that simply by becoming Chancellor and exercising that office's authority, he wouldn't have needed those emergency powers lol.
By the time he had those powers, all the pieces were in place. So he did all that I secret... While actually performing his official duties as Chancellor. In ten years.
That's an unparalleled aptitude for strategy and deceit.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate doesn't really register next to Sheev's political and strategic achievements tbh.
Vitiate is the only Sith I can think of who could rival Sidious' glamour. He made the entire Sith race and faction worship him for centuries and brought so much to Sith culture as an Emperor such as sophisticated intelligence and Imperial military. Creating another Empire out of scratch is surely insane as well. I can't think of any other Sith who could replicate that but Sidious. And I have to agree with you tbh. Vitiate falls short in political and strategic achievements even with all that compared to Sidious. Palpatine is truly the devil of Star Wars. 👆
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yuck. Apparently when you create an instant-level 60 character, the dialogue/story decisions will be set to a default based on your class...There goes the dreams of my evil HoT.
No, that's only past decisions.
So you can't reference crushing Vitiate under a stone spire, but you can kneel to him for power. Oh and by the way, yeh, a Dev confirmed you have the option to kneel to Valkorion during Gamescon.
So there goes the theory of it being a ruse to survive and sabotage, I guess?
Originally posted by psmith81992
You're still missing the point. Sidious had a 1,000 year old infrastructure in place and unlimited resources at his disposal. Vitiate started from scratch, TWICE it seems.
Nah, you're missing the point. Sheev couldn't freely employ the full resources of the Republic lest he arouse suspicion. He didn't have unlimited discretion at that time.
Sheev did all that he did in less time, on a larger scale, with less help, under greater constraints, and while actually performing his duties as Chancellor.
That's a lot better than Vitiate tbh.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious was the one who oversaw the creation of the CIS and Republic militaries (those were the galaxywide militaries I referenced). In fact, he was the one who oversaw the creation of the CIS entirely.Whereas Vitiate had a lot more to play with directly and could do so "openly." And it still took 14 centuries.
Vitiate doesn't really register next to Sheev's political and strategic achievements tbh.
Again, which was easy because all he had to do was tell the Trade Federation or whatever to start powering up their droid manufacturing facilities. All he had to do was contact Kamino and order a shitload of clones. Obviously that'll take less time than having to actually build manufacturing plants from scratch with no infrastructure and a limited workforce and resources.
What? 😬 Vitiate had infinitesimally less to play with. What the dick are you talking about you madman?
Originally posted by Nephthys
He had to build everything from scratch. Conquer the entire empire from one planet and a handful of ships. A vast expanse of space that he owned none of and need to spend centuries bringing together. Sidious just cooped already existing things and then developed them. Of course it takes a lot less time, because he doesn't have to literally build all these things up from dust and he has a lot more to manage because he already has an entire galaxies worth of resources to call upon.All Sidious had to do is get himself elected Chancellor and then make a speech to become emperor. Vitiate had to actually build an empire to become one.
Lol'd really hard at this, not going to lie.
You're casually ignoring the fact that Vitiate's military success was down to Vaiken, the Sith Order's success was down to the Dark Council, and Imperial Intelligence to the minister etc. All Vitiate did was make sure he wasn't overthrown. For the empire of Zakuul, he has an infinity forge to do the work for him in that regard. Hard for any Republic or empire to compete with that. None of that is strategy.
Sheev had to keep himself in office far longer than he ever should have been allowed, create a military that was millions strong without anyone actually noticing, manipulate the War on a Galactic scale by selling secrets of one side to the other without arousing suspicion etc. He worked both sides of a war instead of one, and could have won with either side at a whim. It's not as simple as making a speech to make him emperor. Seperatist propaganda meant that to the people, Palpatine was the only thing that stopped the seperatist invasion. To the people, he survived and uprooted a coup that would destroy the republic from within. To the Senators, he was their path to power, and everyone wanted to be on his side and in his shadow.
Not to mention that whole "The Empire could not exist without my Dark Power" shpiel.
Originally posted by The_TempestWhat larger scale? Vitiate created two empires from scratch. You're ignoring the fact that 8,000 sith lords weren't part of his empire as they were killed, so he really did start from scratch. Palpatine had the republic, regardless of how quiet he had to keep his actions.
Nah, you're missing the point. Sheev couldn't freely employ the full resources of the Republic lest he arouse suspicion. He didn't have unlimited discretion at that time.Sheev did all that he did in less time, on a larger scale, with less help, under greater constraints, and while actually performing his duties as Chancellor.
That's a lot better than Vitiate tbh.
I didn't say anything about 8 thousand Sith Lords. I said he had an army of dark siders with him when he landed on Dromund Kaas and set to work. He had technology and resources from the empire to freely draw on, as well as a population of indigenous workers to support him. And as Sel reminded me, much of the Empire's construction is owed to other characters as Vitiate kicked back to pursue dark side experiments.
Meanwhile, Sheev was actively running the show in secret and couldn't freely draw on anything. He had to manipulate and navigate and work slowly lest he arouse suspicion.
Originally posted by Selenial
Lol'd really hard at this, not going to lie.You're casually ignoring the fact that Vitiate's military success was down to Vaiken, the Sith Order's success was down to the Dark Council, and Imperial Intelligence to the minister etc. All Vitiate did was make sure he wasn't overthrown. For the empire of Zakuul, he has an infinity forge to do the work for him in that regard. Hard for any Republic or empire to compete with that. None of that is strategy.
Sheev had to keep himself in office far longer than he ever should have been allowed, create a military that was millions strong without anyone actually noticing, manipulate the War on a Galactic scale by selling secrets of one side to the other without arousing suspicion etc. He worked both sides of a war instead of one, and could have won with either side at a whim. It's not as simple as making a speech to make him emperor. Seperatist propaganda meant that to the people, Palpatine was the only thing that stopped the seperatist invasion. To the people, he survived and uprooted a coup that would destroy the republic from within. To the Senators, he was their path to power, and everyone wanted to be on his side and in his shadow.
Not to mention that whole "The Empire could not exist without my Dark Power" shpiel.
Of course I'm not ignoring those facts, I loved those video's. Every leader has to delegate tasks, it's called government. It's not like Sidious actually established and formed the Republic and CIS militaries on ever level personally, he just ordered their creation and then the various military leader's organised everything underneath him. It's not like Tempest started talking about Tarkin or Dooku, despite their huge impact in his work. I'm just lumping everything together under them for comparisons sake.
Pfft. You'll notice that I wasn't doing the idiotic pissing contest about who was l33ter at building empires. All I was doing was explaining why it took Vitiate much longer to create the Sith Empire than it did for Sidious to create his Galactic Empire. Basic logistical and practical reasons for why building something literally brick by brick takes longer than just taking over an existing structure.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I didn't say anything about 8 thousand Sith Lords. I said he had an army of dark siders with him when he landed on Dromund Kaas and set to work. He had technology and resources from the empire to freely draw on, as well as a population of indigenous workers to support him. And as Sel reminded me, much of the Empire's construction is owed to other characters as Vitiate kicked back to pursue dark side experiments.
Meanwhile, Sheev was actively running the show in secret and couldn't freely draw on anything. He had to manipulate and navigate and work slowly lest he arouse suspicion. [/B]
Neph, who said Sheev was reading Vitiate's blueprints? Maybe Vitiate got a vision of the future about Sheev's strategies and adopted similar ones to achieve that kind of success? Maybe Sheev truly is responsible for Vitiate's negligible success both IN AND out of universe?
#conspiracy
Beefy, didn't Vitiate have an army and a fleet with him when he made it to Dromund Kaas?
And the role played by unlimited resources is pretty heavily mitigated if circumstance impedes you from drawing on them.
Vitiate had trouble with visions, which is why he relied on Revan to connect him to the lightside (also because Drew is an idiot who think darksiders can't see the future despite numerous examples otherwise) and why he went to Voss. He created the Moff system and other imperial structures well before either.
Beefy, didn't Vitiate have an army and a fleet with him when he made it to Dromund Kaas?
And the role played by unlimited resources is pretty heavily mitigated if circumstance impedes you from drawing on them.