Wrath II vs. Meetra Surik (Kotor II)

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Neph - Nomen Karr hasn't done anything to put himself on the same level as Sion.

I didn't suggest he was. I was merely offering a similar feat that also suggests high endurance.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sion is a jedi killer of four decades experience, he killed Lonna Vash, a powerful Jedi High Council member and was one of Exar Kun's converts, all of shom are Force prodigies and the best of their generation, he is an acclaimed Sith Warrior at that. Nomen Karr has one feat and that is getting killed by Act 1 Wrath.

Nomen Karr was an example, he defeated him well before his prime. Sion is a relative weakling who the Wrath would obliterate in a fight over and over and over again. We can make a thread if you want, I know he could do it. Killing Vash (a complete random) with the help of his sith assassins, on Korriban, isn't exactly blowing my socks off. At least Nomen Karr captured Ekkage, someone actually powerful. He's also a powerful, highly experienced Jedi Master who was drawing power from the darkside, which we know can give a huge boost of power.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Corrected.

Still >>>>> killing 2 Imperial Guardsmen. The Hero also had to fight through legions of Imperial Guard and at least one Guard Captain to get to Vitiate. Even Nyriss feared the full power of the Imperial Guard. The Hero plowed right through them like they weren't even there.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The most elite handful of Imperial Guardsmen in the Empire empowered by the Sith Emperor is far above no-name featless Jedi.

In speed? No. Vitiate empowers them to resist the Force, not to move quicker. They have no force speed capabilities or enhanced reflexes. They are peak humans.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Defeating Sel Makor is definitely not as impressive as defeating a legion of the most elite Sith in the galaxy, followed by Darth Sion and then Darth Traya single-handedly whilst feeling like this:

Yes, it is. Sel Makor is way more powerful than those people. Those "most elite Sith" are mere shadows compared to the real Sith. Plus Meetra has a massive advantage of being able to drain power from her fallen opponents, so it's only logical that she'd be able to do all that while being constantly replenished.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not to mention being mentally haunted by the screams and ghosts of MalachorV whilst fighting on-top of a geyser of Dark Side energy.

Pfft, the Wrath can resist the Dread Master's. Not to mention that Sel Makor's land is so unbelievably corrupt that even Sith go hopelessly insane there. That's a little bit above Malachor. Sure, the Wrath protected themselves from that, but Sel Makor's direct power would utterly eclipse anything Meetra faced.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I rank the Exile higher than most, but nowhere it is stated or implied her willpower was made next to non-existent during her run in the Trayus Academy. Her willpower was sufficient to keep on going all the way up to Traya, and actually fight and kill Traya, an act which the latter expected would break the Exile. Surik's willpower was very intact in that instance - the nexus did hinder her abilities significantly, though.

@Neph - Nomen Karr hasn't done anything to put himself on the same level as Sion.

Well it depends on the definition, her mental state was under massive strain though obviously her willpower wasn't shattered.

"Traversing its surface had been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath. It had been the most awful and horrific experience of her life.
On Malachor she'd felt the echoes of unimaginable pain [...] On Malachor she had felt the echo of great destruction"

👆

Her will was put under great pressure, but obviously she was able to hold strong despite that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't suggest he was. I was merely offering a similar feat that also suggests high endurance.

Not nearly as much as the Exile displayed in her solo assault on Malachor V, where she was diminished and not aided by Force Rage.

Originally posted by Nephthys Nomen Karr was an example, he defeated him well before his prime. Sion is a relative weakling who the Wrath would obliterate in a fight over and over and over again. We can make a thread if you want, I know he could do it. Killing Vash (a complete random) with the help of his sith assassins, on Korriban, isn't exactly blowing my socks off. At least Nomen Karr captured Ekkage, someone actually powerful. He's also a powerful, highly experienced Jedi Master who was drawing power from the darkside, which we know can give a huge boost of power.

Sion is nothing like a weakling, your arguments are baseless and biased, he is a very powerful Sith Warrior. Vash is not some random, she is very powerful, as are her fellow Jedi High Council members, she is stated to be a greater duelist than Kavar, a famed Jedi warrior and Juyo master.

Originally posted by Nephthys Still >>>>> killing 2 Imperial Guardsmen. The Hero also had to fight through legions of Imperial Guard and at least one Guard Captain to get to Vitiate. Even Nyriss feared the full power of the Imperial Guard. The Hero plowed right through them like they weren't even there.

Let us compare the Hero of Tython's fights against the Imperial Guardsmen and the Exile's:

Hero of Tython has fought and defeated dozens of Guards in a series of genuine battles.

Jedi Exile Meetra Surik speedblitzed two of the most elite Imperial Guardsmen in the galaxy despite their empowerment by Vitiate.

Originally posted by Nephthys In speed? No. Vitiate empowers them to resist the Force, not to move quicker. They have no force speed capabilities or enhanced reflexes. They are peak humans.

Imperial Guards have the reflexes and martial prowess of powerful Jedi and Sith. Their most elite would be even better.

Originally posted by Nephthys Yes, it is. Sel Makor is way more powerful than those people. Those "most elite Sith" are mere shadows compared to the real Sith. Plus Meetra has a massive advantage of being able to drain power from her fallen opponents, so it's only logical that she'd be able to do all that while being constantly replenished.

Sel Makor certainly isn't, he has a shit ton of hype but his feats don't fit it, I wouldn't even put him on Nihilus tier. She can grow stronger over a prolonged amount of time, not instantly grow in strength.

Originally posted by Nephthys Pfft, the Wrath can resist the Dread Master's. Not to mention that Sel Makor's land is so unbelievably corrupt that even Sith go hopelessly insane there. That's a little bit above Malachor. Sure, the Wrath protected themselves from that, but Sel Makor's direct power would utterly eclipse anything Meetra faced.

A whole bunch of people including non-Force Users can as well. Malachor instantly corrupts or kills Jedi, so no. Sel Makor's power wasn't direct though.

The Exile takes this.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Her SWTOR: Revan incarnation was canonically stronger than Darth Traya.

What quote are you referring to that states that?

Both Sion and Traya herself both state she will become more powerful than Traya after Malachor V, logically her only following incarnation is in the novel.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not nearly as much as the Exile displayed in her solo assault on Malachor V, where she was diminished and not aided by Force Rage.

The Exile's power is replenished by every foe she kills. And the Wrath pretty clearly wasn't aided by Force Rage in that fight, he spends the whole thing calmly goading Karr until he draws on Force Rage.

The Wrath is said to have "unrivaled stamina" though.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sion is nothing like a weakling, your arguments are baseless and biased, he is a very powerful Sith Warrior. Vash is not some random, she is very powerful, as are her fellow Jedi High Council members, she is stated to be a greater duelist than Kavar, a famed Jedi warrior and Juyo master.

I said relative weakling. Any Jedi Master or Sith Lord is "powerful", but in the halls of the greats Sion is like Vos level or something. Maybe that Lucien Draay guy. His best thing is his ability to regenerate, we don't really have anything on his skills or power to rate him that highly. Personally I think the Wrath beating the Orders top lightsaber instructor and his best student ever at once is better than beating Sion and the Wrath did that on Tatooine.

Quote for Vash being better than Kavar? At any rate, Vash specifically says that it was Sion's "cunning" that let him capture her. I wonder if there was even a fight.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Let us compare the Hero of Tython's fights against the Imperial Guardsmen and the Exile's:

Hero of Tython has fought and defeated dozens of Guards in a series of genuine battles.

Jedi Exile Meetra Surik speedblitzed two of the most elite Imperial Guardsmen in the galaxy despite their empowerment by Vitiate.

We don't know that it was a series of genuine battles, they happen in gameplay. The Hero can easily blitz Sith Lords and shit in cutscenes, but they have "genuine" battles in gameplay. Also, the Dark Temple is an incredibly potent nexus beyond whatever the Exile was soooooo diminished by, they were also close to and thus empowered by Vitiate and unlike Meetra, the Hero didn't just fight 3 or 4 of them, she attacked them head on which even Nyriss thought was insane. The Hero also defeated Prime Scourge (before her prime) after fighting through the Emperor's Fortress, which is full of "Elite Imperial Guards", super-advanced battle droids and Sith. Even Leeha probably did better against the Imperial Guard than Meetra tbh considering she fought the lions share of the fortress.

Also, Meetra explicitly didn't speedblitz the Imperial Guard:

"At the same time, Meetra threw herself at the two guards standing in front of the doors to the throne room, her lightsaber materializing in her hand.

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled. The first soldier met her charge and parried the first strike with his electrostaff, the resilient metal of his weapon deflecting the energy blade of the Jedi off to the side so that it carved a deep scar in the wall.

The second soldier leapt into the fray, forcing Meetra to fall back a step to absorb their coordinated attack."

Originally posted by AncientPower
Imperial Guards have the reflexes and martial prowess of powerful Jedi and Sith. Their most elite would be even better.

Well as we saw, Meetra didn't blitz them. And the only thing that actually indicates the IG's have those reflexes, is that fight, where they show they can react to Meetra and Scourge and Revan to some extent.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sel Makor certainly isn't, he has a shit ton of hype but his feats don't fit it, I wouldn't even put him on Nihilus tier. She can grow stronger over a prolonged amount of time, not instantly grow in strength.

Oh no, not EVEN Nihilus tier! What a damn noob! Sel Makor was powerful enough to create beings out of thin air, he created a monster able to psychically dominate the Gormak race, his avatar was so powerful that no Voss Mystic had ever survived against it and Mystics regularly fight cyborg rancors and shit, his Nightmare Lands were so utterly corrupt Sith Lords were driven insane in it, he had enough power to drive every being on the planet irreparably insane and he was able to contain Vitiate himself in his Dark Heart. He is pretty legit godlike.

And not really, she drains her opponents as they die. We see this in action in the dark side playthrough but it happens even in the light side one.

Originally posted by AncientPower
A whole bunch of people including non-Force Users can as well. Malachor instantly corrupts or kills Jedi, so no. Sel Makor's power wasn't direct though.

Only Nox and the Wrath have to option to resist the Master's. And it's more impressive to corrupt Sith than Jedi, since they're dark side already.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Exile's power is replenished by every foe she kills. And the Wrath pretty clearly wasn't aided by Force Rage in that fight, he spends the whole thing calmly goading Karr until he draws on Force Rage.

The Wrath is said to have "unrivaled stamina" though.

She grows in strength over months, not instantly, the only comparison you can make is DS Exile draining off the Jedi Masters as she kills them. The Wrath constantly uses rage in combat, just because we don't see BW FX doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

The Wrath is also said to be a rage machine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]I said relative weakling. Any Jedi Master or Sith Lord is "powerful", but in the halls of the greats Sion is like Vos level or something. Maybe that Lucien Draay guy. His best thing is his ability to regenerate, we don't really have anything on his skills or power to rate him that highly. Personally I think the Wrath beating the Orders top lightsaber instructor and his best student ever at once is better than beating Sion and the Wrath did that on Tatooine.

Quote for Vash being better than Kavar? At any rate, Vash specifically says that it was Sion's "cunning" that let him capture her. I wonder if there was even a fight.

He uses dark rage constantly to hold off physical death, an ability he mastered over the hundreds of Jedi he would have killed for four decades.

Darth Sion as one of Kun's converts was a Force prodigy and a next generation lightsaber prodigy, he evidently survived killing his own master and any Jedi that may have interfered, as an apprentice. This also means Sion wasn't just corrupted but was empowered by a Sith spirit. Sion then fought and survived the Exar Kun war and kept fighting Jedi right until his death.

The KOTOR II guide states that Master Kavar is not as good as the other Jedi Masters the Exile encountered, including Lonna Vash. Kavar's great reknown as a Jedi Guardian and his being considered the greatest Jedi by the Mandalorians is impressive. More impressive is as his mastery of Form VII: Juyo, mastery of numerous others by extension and evident mastery of Jar'kai. Vrook Lamar, Atris, Lonna Vash & Zez-Kai Ell are all stated to be better duelists than Kavar is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]We don't know that it was a series of genuine battles, they happen in gameplay. The Hero can easily blitz Sith Lords and shit in cutscenes, but they have "genuine" battles in gameplay. Also, the Dark Temple is an incredibly potent nexus beyond whatever the Exile was soooooo diminished by, they were also close to and thus empowered by Vitiate and unlike Meetra, the Hero didn't just fight 3 or 4 of them, she attacked them head on which even Nyriss thought was insane. The Hero also defeated Prime Scourge (before her prime) after fighting through the Emperor's Fortress, which is full of "Elite Imperial Guards", super-advanced battle droids and Sith. Even Leeha probably did better against the Imperial Guard than Meetra tbh considering she fought the lions share of the fortress.

Also, Meetra explicitly [b]didn't speedblitz the Imperial Guard:

"At the same time, Meetra threw herself at the two guards standing in front of the doors to the throne room, her lightsaber materializing in her hand.

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled. The first soldier met her charge and parried the first strike with his electrostaff, the resilient metal of his weapon deflecting the energy blade of the Jedi off to the side so that it carved a deep scar in the wall.

The second soldier leapt into the fray, forcing Meetra to fall back a step to absorb their coordinated attack."

Exactly, we don't know if the HoT fought them in protracted battles or quick ones, just because the HoT has blitzed featless Sith/Jedi is in no manner an indication he can do the same to Imperiak Guardsmen.

As the novel states the entire battle lasted only a few seconds, so either Meetra blitzed in a second or they are all top tier speed combatants.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well as we saw, Meetra didn't blitz them. And the only thing that actually indicates the IG's have those reflexes, is that fight, where they show they can react to Meetra and Scourge and Revan to some extent.

They apparently fought an entire duel in less than a few seconds, considering that afterwards Surik runs and saber throws Vitiate before the battle 'ends'.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]Oh no, not EVEN Nihilus tier! What a damn noob! Sel Makor was powerful enough to create beings out of thin air, he created a monster able to psychically dominate the Gormak race, his avatar was so powerful that no Voss Mystic had ever survived against it and Mystics regularly fight cyborg rancors and shit, his Nightmare Lands were so utterly corrupt Sith Lords were driven insane in it, he had enough power to drive every being on the planet irreparably insane and he was able to contain Vitiate himself in his Dark Heart. He is pretty legit godlike.

Except you've missed the numerous issues inherent there, Sel Makor is an entity that exists in his own realm and spent what could be hundreds or thousands of years turning it into a glorified booby trap. His feats are impressive but really they are hardly unprecedented, they show high tier sorcery. I am not saying Sel Makor is weak but you are wanking him so much I doubt he is fertile, he trapped Vitiate because of his vost, something Baras played him into doing.

Sel Makor whilst dominating a resisting Vitiate was also fighting the Wrath, he was not able to focus on the Wrath at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]Only Nox and the Wrath have to option to resist the Master's. And it's more impressive to corrupt Sith than Jedi, since they're dark side already.

The Masters have had their telepathic assaults thwarted by featless Sith/Jedi/non-Force Users on Korriban. They like Vitiate do not have irresistible TP.

Killing > insanity.

Originally posted by AncientPower
What speed feats does the Wrath have that even come close to blitzing someone who can blitz amped elite Imp Guards and react in half a second, not to mention has the highest tier Precognition.

That being said, I don't actually think the Wrath will blitz her. She will just die horribly, as this contest is well in the Wrath's favor.

Originally posted by AncientPower

just because the HoT has blitzed featless Sith/Jedi is in no manner an indication he can do the same to Imperiak Guardsmen.

? 🤨 😕

Now how is that?

Originally posted by Selenial

Who do you think would win this Selenial? Opinions seem split so far.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You say that as if half of ToR's cast hasn't blitzed "amped Imperial guards," Sith, and Jedi alike. 😬

That being said, I don't actually think the Wrath will blitz her. She will just die horribly, as this contest is well in the Wrath's favor.

When have they blitzed Imperial Guardsmen? Or better yet the most elite handful of their entire number? Take note that only Jedi Council/Dark Council members have ever showed an ability to even fight them nevermind defeat them. The likes of Exal Kressh, the Emperor's own apprentice didn't even entertain the idea.

Yet Surik has a perfectly good chance as I've displayed throughout the thread.

Originally posted by AncientPower
When have they blitzed Imperial Guardsmen? Or better yet the most elite handful of their entire number? Take note that only Jedi Council/Dark Council members have ever showed an ability to even fight them nevermind defeat them. The likes of Exal Kressh, the Emperor's own apprentice didn't even entertain the idea.

Yet Surik has a perfectly good chance as I've displayed throughout the thread.

When did any of this happen?....Because throughout the stories in TOR, characters do meet up and fight Imperial Guardsmen both named and non and defeat em.

So I'm not seeing where just JC and DC members are able to.

I would also like to know how any TOR protagonist isn't above Dark Council or Jedi Council level.

What i am asking for is speed feats that match the seconds long assassination attempt on Vitiate, an entire battle fought that quickly is an insane feat for all involved.

Ancient I'm not sure what you're getting at. Revan was confronting and fighting against the Emperor while Scourge and Surik were still fighting the Guardsmen.

👆 The Exile's engagement with the guard was anything but seconds, lol.

The fight began far before Revan's fight with Vitiate, and ended iirc after it.

The novel says that the battle was in reality only a few seconds long.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You say that as if half of ToR's cast hasn't blitzed "amped Imperial guards," Sith, and Jedi alike. 😬

That being said, I don't actually think the Wrath will blitz her. She will just die horribly, as this contest is well in the Wrath's favor.

👆