Wrath II vs. Meetra Surik (Kotor II)

Started by Zenwolf3 pages

??....The only thing that happened in seconds was Vitiate disintegrating T3 and Revan being blasted with Force Lighting.

Even as she called to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the far end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of his vision of their failure still fresh in his mind.

What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple lightning.

Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber up off the floor.

It all happened in the space of only a few seconds.

??....The only thing that happened in seconds was Vitiate disintegrating T3 and Revan being blasted with Force Lighting.

Even as she called to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the far end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of his vision of their failure still fresh in his mind.

What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple lightning.

Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber up off the floor.

It all happened in the space of only a few seconds.

Before that, Scourge and Suirk were still fighting the Guard while Revan charged.

As Meetra and Scourge battled the Guard, Revan charged toward the Emperor.

His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The novel says that the battle was in reality only a few seconds long.

Yeah, the fight with Revan.

The Exile's battle with the Guard started even before Revan killed the Guard, and she didn't finish them until they retreated into the Throne Room and fought there while Revan fought the Emperor.

We don't really have a gauge on how long it was, but certainly not a few seconds lol. It took her forever to kill one of the Guards.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
??....The only thing that happened in seconds was Vitiate disintegrating T3 and Revan being blasted with Force Lighting.

Not necessarily. You can say the entire Revan vs Vitiate fight happened in that span, but that doesn't support AP either anyway.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yeah, the fight with Revan.

The Exile's battle with the Guard started even before Revan killed the Guard, and she didn't finish them until they retreated into the Throne Room and fought there while Revan fought the Emperor.

We don't really have a gauge on how long it was, but certainly not a few seconds lol. It took her forever to kill one of the Guards.

Not necessarily. You can say the entire Revan vs Vitiate fight happened in that span, but that doesn't support AP either anyway.

Well /shrug regardless I doubt the fight against the Guard were seconds, that just seems wonky considering that they were posing a challenge to Scourge and Surik.

Also it seems that there's an issue with editing posts..

There is no way it took minutes longer, as soon as they broke in Revan charged the Emperor and started the fight which lasted seconds. A few seconds longer perhaps than the Revan vs Emperor exchange but that hardly changes things.

Agreed with Zenwolf, and being more than "a few seconds" doesn't register to "several minutes", AP.

Of course not but it is an incredibly impressive feat for Scourge and Meetra to take down the most elite of the elite Imperial Guards and their captain in such a short amount of time, likely less than even 15 seconds when you put the whole pace of the fight in context.

The battles; Revan versus Vitiate; Meetra Surik versus Imperial Guard; and Lord Scourge versus Imperial Guard, realistically ended in a span of some seconds.

Originally posted by AncientPower
She grows in strength over months, not instantly, the only comparison you can make is DS Exile draining off the Jedi Masters as she kills them. The Wrath constantly uses rage in combat, just because we don't see BW FX doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

The Wrath is also said to be a rage machine.

I'm not talking about her growing in strength, I'm talking about her stamina and how much energy she gets back after every kill. How much effort do you think it took her to kill each Sith on Malachor? More than she drained from them afterwards? It's a factor that helped her to keep fighting with her replenished force reserves. Also no, she instantly grows in strength after each kill. She isn't slowly siphoning power from them, she drains them at the moment of death.

Every Sith uses anger, that doesn't mean anything. The Wrath wasn't using a berserk rage like Luke or Savage were.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He uses dark rage constantly to hold off physical death, an ability he mastered over the hundreds of Jedi he would have killed for four decades.

Darth Sion as one of Kun's converts was a Force prodigy and a next generation lightsaber prodigy, he evidently survived killing his own master and any Jedi that may have interfered, as an apprentice. This also means Sion wasn't just corrupted but was empowered by a Sith spirit. Sion then fought and survived the Exar Kun war and kept fighting Jedi right until his death.

The KOTOR II guide states that Master Kavar is not as good as the other Jedi Masters the Exile encountered, including Lonna Vash. Kavar's great reknown as a Jedi Guardian and his being considered the greatest Jedi by the Mandalorians is impressive. More impressive is as his mastery of Form VII: Juyo, mastery of numerous others by extension and evident mastery of Jar'kai. Vrook Lamar, Atris, Lonna Vash & Zez-Kai Ell are all stated to be better duelists than Kavar is.

You're making that number up, we have no clue how many Jedi he killed. I know about his ability, it just suggests he relied heavily on that instead of his skills.

I want quotes saying that all of Kun's converts were Force and Lightsaber prodigies. I doubt that's accurate considering Jolee's wife was one as well. Also we have no idea that Sion was actually one of those Jedi, his backstory seems completely at odds with that. Even if all that is true though, I don't care. It still doesn't make him that good. I already said that he was good and powerful. But in the grand scheme of things, he's just average. Hell, he loses to freaking Atton in the restored content.

I asked for the quote. I'm not sure if you mean the Kotor campaign guide, but I can't find anything in there and I'm not familiar with any Kotor II guide. In any event, assuming you're describing it accurately it doesn't matter since the Exile didn't encounter Vash. She was dead by the time the Exile reached Korriban.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Exactly, we don't know if the HoT fought them in protracted battles or quick ones, just because the HoT has blitzed featless Sith/Jedi is in no manner an indication he can do the same to Imperiak Guardsmen.

As the novel states the entire battle lasted only a few seconds, so either Meetra blitzed in a second or they are all top tier speed combatants.

Sith have force speed, imperial guards don't. The Hero's blitz is much more impressive since the Sith couldn't react to her attacks and she cut them down with a single slash each. By contrast, the Imperial Guard's Meetra fought were able to react and block her attacks. She actually had to out-duel them and clearly fought a protracted battle with them since they forced her to retreat.

As shown by other's, that's wrong. You don't blitz someone if they text specifically says you didn't blitz them. 😬

Originally posted by AncientPower
They apparently fought an entire duel in less than a few seconds, considering that afterwards Surik runs and saber throws Vitiate before the battle 'ends'.

Nah. Since she didn't blitz them, it doesn't matter. Most Jedi are fast enough to have fights in the span of seconds too btw.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Except you've missed the numerous issues inherent there, Sel Makor is an entity that exists in his own realm and spent what could be hundreds or thousands of years turning it into a glorified booby trap. His feats are impressive but really they are hardly unprecedented, they show high tier sorcery. I am not saying Sel Makor is weak but you are wanking him so much I doubt he is fertile, he trapped Vitiate because of his vost, something Baras played him into doing.

Sel Makor whilst dominating a resisting Vitiate was also fighting the Wrath, he was not able to focus on the Wrath at all.

There's nothing that says that Sel Makor specifically worked to make the Nightmare Lands that corrupt. His mere presence could have been enough. I never said that Sel Makor was unprecedented, but he is certainly more powerful than Traya.

That's supposition, Vitiate lowered his defenses. While he may have hampered Sel Makor somewhat, there's nothing suggesting that he couldn't focus on the Wrath. The first thing he does is channel his power and create a dozen Gormak out of thin air for you to fight, he was clearly still immensely powerful and in control. I doubt Vitiate hindered him any more than Kreia's lacking a hand hindered her ability to duel the Exile.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Masters have had their telepathic assaults thwarted by featless Sith/Jedi/non-Force Users on Korriban. They like Vitiate do not have irresistible TP.

Killing > insanity.

Non-force sensitives can walk on Malachor too (Hanharr). The Dread Master's influence is miles greater than that planets and resisting them is a far greater feat of will than just walking on Malachor.

I don't believe Malachor actually killed anyone. The Nightmare Lands are corrupt enough that no-one barring the Hero of Tython can walk into it without performing the rituals protecting their minds. Even Sith are drowned in the darkside. That's more impressive than Malachor where a wookiee can just stroll around on it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not talking about her growing in strength, I'm talking about her stamina and how much energy she gets back after every kill. How much effort do you think it took her to kill each Sith on Malachor? More than she drained from them afterwards? It's a factor that helped her to keep fighting with her replenished force reserves. Also no, she instantly grows in strength after each kill. She isn't slowly siphoning power from them, she drains them at the moment of death.

She does not get revitalized by this in any manner, will the low-balling of this character ever subside here? She gains ever so slightly more power with each death which culminates over months in the return of her power.

Originally posted by Nephthys Every Sith uses anger, that doesn't mean anything. The Wrath wasn't using a berserk rage like Luke or Savage were.

Except that the Wrath constantly uses rage in combat, this is all a moot point though, I see no reason to believe that Nomen Karr is any greater than the self-exiled Jedi High Council members of the Dark Wars.

Originally posted by Nephthys You're making that number up, we have no clue how many Jedi he killed. I know about his ability, it just suggests he relied heavily on that instead of his skills.

He fought Jedi in the Great Sith War, Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War and Dafk Wars, as well as all the years inbetween. He hunted Jedi and killed them for forty years, hardly an exaggeration.

Originally posted by Nephthys I want quotes saying that all of Kun's converts were Force and Lightsaber prodigies. I doubt that's accurate considering Jolee's wife was one as well. Also we have no idea that Sion was actually one of those Jedi, his backstory seems completely at odds with that. Even if all that is true though, I don't care. It still doesn't make him that good. I already said that he was good and powerful. But in the grand scheme of things, he's just average. Hell, he loses to freaking Atton in the restored content.

What? It is well stated that Kun targeted the Jedi Knights with the strongest potential to convert into his students. His KOTOR CG Profile states he was one of Exar Kun's sith warriors during the war, the only genuine Force Users Kun had in his force were those twenty he converted, that was the entire point.

Atton was an elite Sith Assassin in Revan's deadliest unit, he was a master of breaking Jedi and was expert in Echani training, furthermore he was taught combat techniques to the rank of a Jedi Sentinel by Meetra Surik whom had already achieved mastery of combat equal to Traya.

Though thanks for opening the floodgates for Cut Content, bad move Neph.

Originally posted by Nephthys I asked for the quote. I'm not sure if you mean the Kotor campaign guide, but I can't find anything in there and I'm not familiar with any Kotor II guide. In any event, assuming you're describing it accurately it doesn't matter since the Exile didn't encounter Vash. She was dead by the time the Exile reached Korriban.

Kavar isn't as much of a lightsaber virtuoso as the other Jedi masters you've met, but he makes up for this with his extremely potent Force powers.
- Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Both the Exile and Visas Marr sensed Lonna's presence and fall as they landed and then discovered her corpse, your loophole is humorous but hardly valid.

Furthermore cut content does have Meetra meet Lonna Vash.

Originally posted by Nephthys Sith have force speed, imperial guards don't. The Hero's blitz is much more impressive since the Sith couldn't react to her attacks and she cut them down with a single slash each. By contrast, the Imperial Guard's Meetra fought were able to react and block her attacks. She actually had to out-duel them and clearly fought a protracted battle with them since they forced her to retreat.

Imperial Guardsmen as standard are handpicked from the most elite soldier in the Empire and are trained ruthlessly to the point that they are the physical and martial equals of any Sith or Jedi. Their most elite are even better than this, they are better than most Force Users and make Dark Council members quake, most DC members don't even try to fight back. There is no reason to think featless Sith can match an elite Guardsmen in combat.

Yet that fight was only seconds longer than the Vitiate vs Revan fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys Nah. Since she didn't blitz them, it doesn't matter. Most Jedi are fast enough to have fights in the span of seconds too btw.

Her beating them over a span of seconds and not in 30 seconds to a minute is an incredible speed feat. Oh and no Jedi beating such high tier combatants in such a quick manner is not a norm, stop low-balling.

Furthermore when the Wrath encounters Imperial Guardsmen on Yavin IV, he too has a protracted fight. Infact the leaders of both factions make it clear that defeating the Guard would be extremely difficult despite their own numbers.

Originally posted by Nephthys There's nothing that says that Sel Makor specifically worked to make the Nightmare Lands that corrupt. His mere presence could have been enough. I never said that Sel Makor was unprecedented, but he is certainly more powerful than Traya.

Sel Makor in the Nightmare Lands certainly is, but said lands have been vital to his success.

Originally posted by Nephthys That's supposition, Vitiate lowered his defenses. While he may have hampered Sel Makor somewhat, there's nothing suggesting that he couldn't focus on the Wrath. The first thing he does is channel his power and create a dozen Gormak out of thin air for you to fight, he was clearly still immensely powerful and in control. I doubt Vitiate hindered him any more than Kreia's lacking a hand hindered her ability to duel the Exile.

Lowering his defenses does not mean he was not helping the Wrath, he allowed Sel Makor to enter his host body, but there is certainly room for a mental war.

Originally posted by Nephthys Non-force sensitives can walk on Malachor too (Hanharr). The Dread Master's influence is miles greater than that planets and resisting them is a far greater feat of will than just walking on Malachor.

Hanharr was connected to Darth Traya, Jedi Knights either turned to the Dark Side or were killed by the planet. The Dread Master's influence has been thwarted before, it is not infallible as you present it to be.

Originally posted by Nephthys I don't believe Malachor actually killed anyone. The Nightmare Lands are corrupt enough that no-one barring the Hero of Tython can walk into it without performing the rituals protecting their minds. Even Sith are drowned in the darkside. That's more impressive than Malachor where a wookiee can just stroll around on it.

Yes it did, do some basic research. Again, Hanharr was connected to Darth Traya.

How does the Exile's killing lead to the return of her power, when it's specifically said that she is feeding off the death and destruction she's causing? The Exile's power returned from letting go of Traya and blowing up Malachor.

That is how her power increased in such a short breadth of time, it is how she achieved power in the Force surpassing Darth Traya after Malachor V.

The Exile, until the day she died, was always weaker than Traya. Even when she fought her at Malachor she was weaker.

Both Sion and Traya state that Meetra will surpass Traya herself in power eventually, this means that Meetra as of the Revan novel is canonically stronger than the lady of betrayals.

That's actually not what that means at all. Considering Traya also said that the Exile would destroy the Force, something that very much didn't happen, I think we'll need something just a little more tangible to make such certain statements.