Caedus vs. Vitiate

Started by Beniboybling6 pages

Originally posted by Sinious
👆

I think an argument can be made for Caedus but even before the new patches and SoR, I think Vitiate had surpassed him in the force by a margin and now the gap is even bigger.

Caedus is clearly the superior duelist as Vitiate lacks saber feats but that didn't stop him from stomping enemies who can duel much better than him. Some people claim he would be finished the moment someone closes the gap between them but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. He doesn't even try to keep the distance when he is in combat. He even prefers getting near his enemies on several occasions. If he was as vulnerable as some people think, he wouldn't be so chill about walking up to his enemies especially when you consider the fact that his main motivation is fear of death.

So I think Vitiate can exhaust him with constant force attacks and even if Caedus closes the gap at some point, Vitiate can still turn this into a force fight again and continue to pour more and more on Caedus. At some point, Caedus will be overwhelmed and fall.

Your acting as if Vitiate has been in a lot of confrontations. 😬

He's been in two, in the first he doesn't even wield a lightsaber, but spams Force powers to keep Revan and bay.

Sure in the second confrontation he closed the gap, didn't end well though:

Originally posted by Trocity
Shut up, Legend. You're the most biased debater I've ever encountered on a forum.

Engaging you in a 'legitimate' conversation is an utter waste of time.

👆

Originally posted by Sinious
So I think Vitiate can exhaust him with constant force attacks and even if Caedus closes the gap at some point, Vitiate can still turn this into a force fight again

Why would he be able to turn it into the Force fight again when Caedus gets close?

When Caedus gets close, it's over.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate's raw power clearly surpasses Caedus's as of the latter's death, but his general proficiency with a blade and physical talents might let him close the gap and strike the Emperor down.

👆

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your acting as if Vitiate has been in a lot of confrontations. 😬

He's been in two, in the first he doesn't even wield a lightsaber, but spams Force powers to keep Revan and bay.

Sure in the second confrontation he closed the gap, didn't end well though:

Vitiate's been in a lot more fights than that.

Also that's the end of the fight, at the start Vitiate freely walks up to the Hero's lightsaber without fear.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your acting as if Vitiate has been in a lot of confrontations. 😬

He's been in two, in the first he doesn't even wield a lightsaber, but spams Force powers to keep Revan and bay.

Sure in the second confrontation he closed the gap, didn't end well though:

Wrong, for so many reasons.

First of all, Vitiate's been in more than 2 fights buddy. He faced lots of Jedi though under what circumstances we don't know. You're also forgetting about Braga strike team.

There are several differences between his performances in SWTOR and the novel.

In Revan, he stood still and let Revan come to him. In SWTOR, he started approaching his enemies in both occasions.

In Revan, he tries to mindrape his opponent immediately instead of taking them out first and even after failing he still tries to toy with his enemy instead of sending his potent attacks right away. In SWTOR, he sent his most powerful attack instantly and mindraped them after defeating them.

So, we have 3 fights and the Revan one is actually the least relevant one here. Vitiate's fighting characteristics have changed, evolved after Revan. He was less arrogant, smarter, more cautious yet still more confident.

When he faced HoT, he was immensely weakened as his ritual(possibly the biggest ritual ever attempted) backfired. Even then, at the end of the fight in an exhausted state, he managed to push HoT back with the force(his TK was still very powerful at this point) but HoT himself was powerful enough to stand and keep coming at him. Vitiate eventually depleted as he was already weakened by the ritual and therefor this confrontation doesn't represent his true limits as a combatant.

On the other hand, his performance against the Braga strike team is the perfect representation of his capabilities.

-mnZGdXpCd0?t=3m55s

Vitaite lets them take out their sabers, while he is standing on a very advantageous ground all the way up in his throne where he can cast a lot of attacks before they near him yet he still jumps down and closes the gap even more by walking towards them. His instant areal lightning is strong enough to subdue most of the group and he can multitask as he casts another lightning at HoT and Braga at the same time to keep them at bay as well. And again simultaneously, he charges a powerful blast while he keeps pouring more lightning at them and finally unleashes the final blow to take them out. These are perfectly executed combo attacks and while Caedus might be more powerful than the Braga team even collectively, it doesn't matter much cause Vitiate took care of the Braga team without any trouble so he can defeat more powerful opponents too just not as easily. More importantly, Vitiate grew in power after these events and on top of his first SWTOR feats, he got lots of new accolades that explain how powerful he became.

"The Dread Masters changed Oricon. Even their combined power is insignificant compared to the Emperor." said by his own Wrath. Someone who knows of both the DMs and Vitiate.

And even as of SoR, it has been confirmed that Revan stood no chance against Vitiate and Revan's not that far behind Caedus in the force.

So in full power, Vitiate can push Caedus back if he closes the gap and keep on overwhelming him with more force attacks.

Originally posted by Stigma
Why would he be able to turn it into the Force fight again when Caedus gets close?

When Caedus gets close, it's over.

Read above.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your acting as if Vitiate has been in a lot of confrontations. 😬

Vitiate has been in a lot of confrontations actually.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He's been in two, in the first he doesn't even wield a lightsaber, but spams Force powers to keep Revan and bay.

Vitiate have fought and defeated many Jedi and Sith.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure in the second confrontation he closed the gap, didn't end well though:


Relying on a circumstantial development and confrontation doesn't makes your argument credible. This was a one-time occurrence and Vitiate likely erred in frustration. A weakened Voice is not a true representation of Vitiate's power.

Vitiate's powers are potent enough to overwhelm conventional defenses of any Jedi and/or Sith. A lightsaber will not be good enough.

And FYI:

Vitiate is really fast and also proficient in the use of a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also that's the end of the fight, at the start Vitiate freely walks up to the Hero's lightsaber without fear.
Which proves nothing, considering it was that very blade that killed him.

All it proves is he is overconfident, that's a weakness not a strength.

We should also account for the fact it was a Voice, apparently, not his true body. Which might explain his confidence. I raise this because it was the threat of an adversary getting close to him i.e. Revan, that caused him to create the voices in the first place.

I doubt if it were a real body he'd be so cocky.

Originally posted by Sinious
First of all, Vitiate's been in more than 2 fights buddy. He faced lots of Jedi though under what circumstances we don't know.
If we don't know the circumstances then why are you assuming the details?
You're also forgetting about Braga strike team.
In which instead of engaging them in lightsaber combat, he blasted them back with the Force...
In Revan, he stood still and let Revan come to him. In SWTOR, he started approaching his enemies in both occasions.
He jumped down from his throne. That's hardly approaching, all it demonstrates is his confidence they could not reach him, not his willingness to engage in lightsaber combat when he wasn't even armed. 😆
In Revan, he tries to mindrape his opponent immediately instead of taking them out first and even after failing he still tries to toy with his enemy instead of sending his potent attacks right away. In SWTOR, he sent his most powerful attack instantly and mindraped them after defeating them.
Because he was up against 4(?) opponents instead of one.

That said I don't see your point, in both instances he avoided saber combat, and instead warded them off with Force-based attacks.

So, we have 3 fights and the Revan one is actually the least relevant one here. Vitiate's fighting characteristics have changed, evolved after Revan. He was less arrogant, smarter, more cautious yet still more confident.
The majority of which he avoided saber combat in...

Except the one where it was confirmed not be his true body...

Changed, evolved? Seriously? The guy has been trashing Jedi for almost a thousand years, why would he suddenly switch up tactics? If anything the fact he created the Voices indicated he was more wary, all your seeing is confidence he can beat those particular opponents.

But by all means, let him come, let me walk up to Caedus' blade and boast, it will merely make cutting him down all the more easy.

When he faced HoT, he was immensely weakened as his ritual(possibly the biggest ritual ever attempted) backfired. Even then, at the end of the fight in an exhausted state, he managed to push HoT back with the force(his TK was still very powerful at this point) but HoT himself was powerful enough to stand and keep coming at him. Vitiate eventually depleted as he was already weakened by the ritual and therefore this confrontation doesn't represent his true limits as a combatant.
True, but then Caedus is more powerful than the HoT and at the very least the fact he lost debunks it as proof against the fact Caedus will defeat him in sabers.
Vitaite lets them take out their sabers, while he is standing on a very advantageous ground all the way up in his throne where he can cast a lot of attacks before they near him yet he still jumps down and closes the gap even more by walking towards them.
Again because "you stand there because I allow it, because I do not fear", it is quite obvious that Vitiate was confident they couldn't get close to him, not that if they did, he could deal with it. Not that any of them had skills close to that of Caedus.
These are perfectly executed combo attacks and while Caedus might be more powerful than the Braga team even collectively, it doesn't matter much cause Vitiate took care of the Braga team without any trouble so he can defeat more powerful opponents too just not as easily.
Baseless speculation, granted being stronger than any one member of the Jedi Strike Team is no guarantee one could withstand such as an assault, but its hardly proof such an attack to take out Caedus. The fact that Vitiate required a Force storm, multiple blasts of lightning and a massive explosion of energy just to render them unconscious suggests Caedus can handle it, or that Vitiate's confidence is proof of skill.

Nor where they in a position to fight back, Caedus is, he has Force powers of his own and if Revan can knock him flat, so can Caedus. Difference is Caedus can close the gap before Vitiate gets up.

More importantly, Vitiate grew in power after these events and on top of his first SWTOR feats, he got lots of new accolades that explain how powerful he became.
Those accolades you provided aren't proof Vitiate got more powerful, as that could well have been the power he held as of the JK Act 2 ending, and the fact that the Wrath has never been in the Emperor's presence doesn't add much stock to his claim.
And even as of SoR, it has been confirmed that Revan stood no chance against Vitiate and Revan's not that far behind Caedus in the force.
He's quite far behind...
So in full power, Vitiate can push Caedus back if he closes the gap and keep on overwhelming him with more force attacks.
He can hold Caedus back until Caedus knocks him on his ass, then its all over.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate have fought and defeated many Jedi and Sith.
Usually by mental domination or by some other Force power, not in lightsaber combat.
Relying on a circumstantial development and confrontation doesn't makes your argument credible. This was a one-time occurrence and Vitiate likely erred in frustration. A weakened Voice is not a true representation of Vitiate's power.
I'm not the one who brought up Vitiate's confrontations with Jedi as proof of his skill...
Vitiate's powers are potent enough to overwhelm conventional defenses of any Jedi and/or Sith. A lightsaber will not be good enough.
Source?
And FYI:

Vitiate is really fast and also proficient in the use of a lightsaber.

Proficient isn't going to cut it, Vitiate's ability to block and swing is hardly comparable to Caedus' skill.

Nor is Lana Beniko anywhere near Caedus' league in terms of speed and strength, the fact that she was outclassed by a fraction of the Emperor's power is not impressive.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Usually by mental domination or by some other Force power, not in lightsaber combat.

Maybe but my point is that Vitiate have fought 'many' individuals.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not the one who brought up Vitiate's confrontations with Jedi as proof of his skill...

Then why cite that circumstantial development?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Source?

Evidence is in the footage of confrontation between the Jedi Strike Team led by Master Tol Braga and Vitiate. The Jedi used their lightsabers in this confrontation but got overwhelmed and their lightsabers most likely disintegrated.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Proficient isn't going to cut it, Vitiate's ability to block and swing is hardly comparable to Caedus' skill.

Nor is Lana Beniko anywhere near Caedus' league in terms of speed and strength, the fact that she was outclassed by a fraction of the Emperor's power is not impressive.


You make it sound like as if Lana Beniko is incompetent in the use of a lightsaber, she is not. And she is officially stated to possess 'great' strength.

Vitiate was also able to contend with Hero of Tython in a lightsaber duel while possessing Kira Carsen. FYI, Hero of Tython is among the most skilled lightsaber combatants.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which proves nothing, considering it was that very blade that killed him.

All it proves is he is overconfident, that's a weakness not a strength.

We should also account for the fact it was a Voice, apparently, not his true body. Which might explain his confidence. I raise this because it was the threat of an adversary getting close to him i.e. Revan, that caused him to create the voices in the first place.

I doubt if it were a real body he'd be so cocky.

Uh, yes it does. He and the Hero still managed to have an apocalyptic battle, despite Vitiate starting the fight with her saber brushing his cheek. This proves that he can manage close range engagements in some manner or disengage and put enough distance between he and the Hero before she could move her blade a foot forward.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Maybe but my point is that Vitiate have fought 'many' individuals.
Well that's nice.
Then why cite that circumstantial development?
To debunk it as proof of Vitiate's skill.
Evidence is in the footage of confrontation between the Jedi Strike Team led by Master Tol Braga and Vitiate. The Jedi used their lightsabers in this confrontation but got overwhelmed and their lightsabers most likely disintegrated.
Unless you can prove that any one member of that Jedi Strike Team are the most powerful Force users ever, it is not proof that, and I quote:

Vitiate's powers are potent enough to overwhelm conventional defenses of any Jedi and/or Sith.

Try again.

You make it sound like as if Lana Beniko is incompetent in the use of a lightsaber, she is not. And she is officially stated to possess 'great' strength.
She's not in Caedus' league, she's not even close, end of story.
Vitiate was also able to contend with Hero of Tython in a lightsaber duel while possessing Kira Carsen. FYI, Hero of Tython is among the most skilled lightsaber combatants.
Well before the Hero of Tython's prime and yet was still beaten.

👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, yes it does. He and the Hero still managed to have an apocalyptic battle, despite Vitiate starting the fight with her saber brushing his cheek. This proves that he can manage close range engagements in some manner or disengage and put enough distance between he and the Hero before she could move her blade a foot forward.
Well I guess it proves he won't get blitzed, I'll give you that.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well that's nice.

Indeed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
To debunk it as proof of Vitiate's skill.

What skill?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Unless you can prove that any one member of that Jedi Strike Team are the most powerful Force users ever, it is not proof that, and I quote:

Vitiate's powers are potent enough to overwhelm conventional defenses of any Jedi and/or Sith.

Try again.


Each among them is one of the strongest Jedi of the Order. And Vitiate overwhelmed their defenses collectively.

Vitiate also overwhelmed defenses of Revan. And Revan is one of the most powerful Jedi in galactic history.

In addition:

His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Originally posted by Beniboybling
She's not in Caedus' league, she's not even close, end of story.

And I have take your word for it, right?

I am not asserting that Lana Beniko is as strong and capable as Darth Caedus but my point is that she should not be underestimated either. She paled in comparison to Vitiate but this doesn't means that she is average.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well before the Hero of Tython's prime and yet was still beaten.

Hero of Tython was already an expert swordsman during this time.

I have to agree with LeGenD. Fabulous points 👆

Originally posted by Beniboybling
If we don't know the circumstances then why are you assuming the details?

I only corrected you when you posted false information. I made no assumptions on Vitiate's unknown fights.
In which instead of engaging them in lightsaber combat, he blasted them back with the Force...

Again, I never claimed it wasn't a force fight. What's your point?
He jumped down from his throne. That's hardly approaching, all it demonstrates is his confidence they could not reach him, not his willingness to engage in lightsaber combat when he wasn't even armed. 😆

That said I don't see your point, in both instances he avoided saber combat, and instead warded them off with Force-based attacks.

The majority of which he avoided saber combat in...

Because he was up against 4(?) opponents instead of one.

Except the one where it was confirmed not be his true body...

But by all means, let him come, let me walk up to Caedus' blade and boast, it will merely make cutting him down all the more easy.


I see that you misunderstood my post. I'm not saying Vitiate wanted to duel his opponents or is actually a great duelist. I've already said Caedus is a much better duelist since Vitiate lacks proper feats. My point is that he isn't as vulnerable as you think in melee. His confidence and not attempting to keep the distance pretty much tells us that he doesn't careif his opponent is near him or not that much. He gets really close to HoT for example and the fight begins when there is like a meter between them. So the whole "Caedus destroys once he closes the gap" argument doesn't really make much sense.
Changed, evolved? Seriously? The guy has been trashing Jedi for almost a thousand years, why would he suddenly switch up tactics? If anything the fact he created the Voices indicated he was more wary, all your seeing is confidence he can beat those particular opponents.

Not sure why you're talking about things completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.
True, but then Caedus is more powerful than the HoT and at the very least the fact he lost debunks it as proof against the fact Caedus will defeat him in sabers.Again because "you stand there because I allow it, because I do not fear", it is quite obvious that Vitiate was confident they couldn't get close to him, not that if they did, he could deal with it. Not that any of them had skills close to that of Caedus.

Except HoT already got close to him in Chapter 3 and he didn't seem to have a problem fighting even when weakened. Oh and the fact that Vitiate is the one who walked down to him pretty much proves Vitiate isn't as vulnerable as you think. 👆

Baseless speculation, granted being stronger than any one member of the Jedi Strike Team is no guarantee one could withstand such as an assault, but its hardly proof such an attack to take out Caedus. The fact that Vitiate required a Force storm, multiple blasts of lightning and a massive explosion of energy just to render them unconscious suggests Caedus can handle it, or that Vitiate's confidence is proof of skill.

Do you think Caedus could defeat Braga team as easily as Vitiate?

Nor where they in a position to fight back, Caedus is, he has Force powers of his own and if Revan can knock him flat, so can Caedus. Difference is Caedus can close the gap before Vitiate gets up.

LOL @ hinting Vitiate didn't grow in power after the novel and would repeat the same mistakes he did in the book even though he didn't ever again.
Those accolades you provided aren't proof Vitiate got more powerful, as that could well have been the power he held as of the JK Act 2 ending, and the fact that the Wrath has never been in the Emperor's presence doesn't add much stock to his claim.He's quite far behind...

So what? That would only elevate HoT and Braga Team and if not, then Vitiate did get more powerful.
He can hold Caedus back until Caedus knocks him on his ass, then its all over.

Nah. Btw, are we using Vitiate's increase in power in the patches in this thread or are we avoiding anything after JK Storyline ending?

Originally posted by Sinious
Do you think Caedus could defeat Braga team as easily as Vitiate?

Funny you ask.... He did defeat a superior TOR team in this thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=607672

LOL I remember that thread. I'm not sure if he can defeat that team though.

Yeah, good times.

I also made this thread with Braga team facing Vader. Vader won imho.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t611228.html

I'm not sure if Vader can take them. I guess it depends on how high you rank Scourge and so Act 2 HoT.

Nowhere near high enough.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not the one who brought up Vitiate's confrontations with Jedi as proof of his skill...
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What skill?
That's the most sense you've said in a long time. 👆
Originally posted by Sinious
I see that you misunderstood my post. I'm not saying Vitiate wanted to duel his opponents or is actually a great duelist. I've already said Caedus is a much better duelist since Vitiate lacks proper feats. My point is that he isn't as vulnerable as you think in melee. His confidence and not attempting to keep the distance pretty much tells us that he doesn't careif his opponent is near him or not that much. He gets really close to HoT for example and the fight begins when there is like a meter between them. So the whole "Caedus destroys once he closes the gap" argument doesn't really make much sense.
I understood your point just fine, to which I responded that he wasn't afraid to get close (though he really didn't) because he was confident they couldn't touch him, not that because he thought he could handle them if they closed the gap, he was confident that that simply would not happen.

But even if what you were saying were the case, Vitiate's confidence he could handle the Jedi Strike Team (who are not on his level regardless) in combat isn't proof he can handle Caedus, especially considering he overestimated his ability to defeat the HoT.

Fact is Vitiate doesn't have the feats to back up his boasts. Even Legend admits he has no skill. 🤣

Except HoT already got close to him in Chapter 3 and he didn't seem to have a problem fighting even when weakened. Oh and the fact that Vitiate is the one who walked down to him pretty much proves Vitiate isn't as vulnerable as you think. 👆
Didn't have a problem? The guy died. Clearly he did have a problem, and was vulnerable. 👆
Do you think Caedus could defeat Braga team as easily as Vitiate?
He would dispatch them pretty handily.
LOL @ hinting Vitiate didn't grow in power after the novel and would repeat the same mistakes he did in the book even though he didn't ever again.
Care to clarify on those mistakes?

And you realise Caedus is considerably more powerful than Revan, yes?

So what? That would only elevate HoT and Braga Team and if not, then Vitiate did get more powerful.
So it means that Vitiate could not do better, if that was what you were trying to insinuate.
Nah. Btw, are we using Vitiate's increase in power in the patches in this thread or are we avoiding anything after JK Storyline ending?
Considering they were performed in spirit form I don't take them into account.