Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Everyone 401k's are subject to the same manipulation, with less government oversight. Now its in the private sector hands of capitalism and financial disaster. Its been proven people turn to gold when the market gets unstable.
Which is foolish of them, because gold is subject to all the vulnerabilities of any commodity. Mining of gold decreases it's value. If the government dumped Fort Knox's reserves, gold prices would plummet. Heck, if gold jewelry fell out of fashion, it'd become less valuable.
It's a security blanket, not a secure investment.
A properly diverse 401k is a better deal, because it requires manipulating a large number of stocks that fight back to resist manipulation if possible, because even if it goes down it'll recover as long as the companies exist, and because the actual track record of the stock market is better.
Originally posted by Q99
Which is foolish of them, because gold is subject to all the vulnerabilities of any commodity. Mining of gold decreases it's value. If the government dumped Fort Knox's reserves, gold prices would plummet. Heck, if gold jewelry fell out of fashion, it'd become less valuable.It's a security blanket, not a secure investment.
A properly diverse 401k is a better deal, because it requires manipulating a large number of stocks that fight back to resist manipulation if possible, because even if it goes down it'll recover as long as the companies exist, and because the actual track record of the stock market is better.
I said this a while back. It was ignored.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's a very ill-thought out post.
I said that same thing you said, but with far more tact, regarding your post. I say let's avoid this type of immature shit-slinging because, quite clearly, you and I have a history of wallowing in putrescent refuse when we disagree. Sorry about that: I started this shit-slinging, this time (I said your post had a "problem"😉.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Was gold was valuable a thousand years ago for that reason?
Was gold valuable a thousand years ago because it had extremely high utility in the electronic's industry?
Originally posted by Ushgarak
or 100?
Yes, it was quite useful in electronics, chemistry, and just general sciences 100 years ago.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Or during any period where the gold standard was relevant, as TI is referring to?
Gold has been used for thousands of years for far more than currency. Is that your point, TI's point, or my point? Because I feel it is my point, at this moment...but you may also be trying to make that same point.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
What do you think the vast majority of gold is used for? If you answer industry, you're wrong.
That's easy to answer: jewelry. That much is obvious, isn't it? I think most people know that.
http://www.sbcgold.com/blog/top-6-common-uses-for-gold/
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The amount of gold's value related to its industrial use is small. The amount related to its psychological value is [b]massive.[/B]
Small? That's an arbitrary label, really. To one person, the area of electronics can be a MASSIVE use of gold. To another, because it doesn't represent a majority or even a plurality of gold use (iirc, none of the uses are a majority use and jewelry use is the plurality use), it could be called small. I prefer to stick to numbers instead of arbitrary labels: we can't discuss or disagree on arbitrary labels like "small" because I think using gold for electronics is a massive use of gold.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
This is nothing to do with waxing philosophical- it's just basic logic.
Yeah, your arguments boiled down to getting philosophical and just dismissing contemporary utility as irrelevant to your point. As I stated before, you stated it was useless and then indirectly stated why it was useful in the same post.
To be more clear, I was disagreeing with these parts of your post:
Gold is not a practical good- it doesn't do anything unless you work in specific parts of the electronics industry.
That's wrong. It's non-monetary use is not limited to "specific parts of the electronics industry."
Why do you dismiss paper money on the idea that its value is theoretical yet value gold despite its value also being theoretical?
That's wrong or right because it is splitting philosophical hairs: it's all theoretical, as I described, earlier. From another perspective, none of it is theoretical because it is actually a significant part of global economic currency.
The vast majority of gold's value comes from a. its history and b. that it is shiny.
This is also incorrect (the "vast" part is what makes your point incorrect). Gold's value comes from several metallurgical and physical properties:
1. It is highly resistant to oxidization.
2. It is very malleable.
3. It can and could be readily obtained from ore deposits even from stone-age civilizations.
4. Gold very readily conducts electricity.
5. It has a very appealing color and luster, when worked properly (for things like jewelry use).
6. Rarity in ancient times.
If gold's value only came from its shininess, it would not have made it into history as strongly as it has. Bronze can be made into a very beautiful color and with an amazing shine (some ancient mirrors were bronze and bronze jewelry is found in multiple ancient civilizations meaning it wasn't just one or the other).
Rarity + utility are the elements the contributed to gold being valued as highly as humans have in history (compared to other metals like copper(bronze)).
At this point, I won't reply to this topic anymore because things will probably get out of hand. So consider this post a concession to any point you want to make or had.
Very good points. I agree with all of those..
Also did you know how much gold is in electronics there is a whole movement of people scrapping old electronics to get the gold, it actually can be very profitable.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=get+gold+from+electronics
I see gold prices going up now to because gay marriage is legal, thats more gold to be sold.
Originally posted by dadudemonI think you're confusing some of what Ush is saying. Most of these points show why Gold was chosen as a currency. Yes it has good qualities for that but it is not the only thing that meets the criteria to be used as a good currency.
This is also incorrect (the "vast" part is what makes your point incorrect). Gold's value comes from several metallurgical and physical properties:1. It is highly resistant to oxidization.
2. It is very malleable.
3. It can and could be readily obtained from ore deposits even from stone-age civilizations.
4. Gold very readily conducts electricity.
5. It has a very appealing color and luster, when worked properly (for things like jewelry use).
6. Rarity in ancient times.If gold's value only came from its shininess, it would not have made it into history as strongly as it has. Bronze can be made into a very beautiful color and with an amazing shine (some ancient mirrors were bronze and bronze jewelry is found in multiple ancient civilizations meaning it wasn't just one or the other).
Rarity + utility are the elements the contributed to gold being valued as highly as humans have in history (compared to other metals like copper(bronze)).
At this point, I won't reply to this topic anymore because things will probably get out of hand. So consider this post a concession to any point you want to make or had.
Ultimately time just kind of made it a standard as more and more people put value on it. So yes the vast amount of it's value today comes from the fact that it has been historically valued as currency or a desired commodity even when there were other items that could have been used as currency. Also as you said in point 5 because it is appealing in looks. So Ush is correct when he says it's value it basically historical.
Originally posted by Time-ImmemorialThere is not much gold in electronics at all.
Very good points. I agree with all of those..Also did you know how much gold is in electronics there is a whole movement of people scrapping old electronics to get the gold, it actually can be very profitable.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=get+gold+from+electronics
I see gold prices going up now to because gay marriage is legal, thats more gold to be sold.
Here is a good site showing how much smartphones you have to collect to just get 3/5ths of a pound. https://powermore.dell.com/tech-culture/how-much-gold-is-in-smartphones-and-computers/
I think I read somewhere there is something like 50 cents worth of gold in the average smartphone.
It's not really that profitable unless you are willing to spend a lot of time actually breaking it down.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I said that same thing you said, but with far more tact, regarding your post. I say let's avoid this type of immature shit-slinging because, quite clearly, you and I have a history of wallowing in putrescent refuse when we disagree. Sorry about that: I started this shit-slinging, this time (I said your post had a "problem"😉.Was gold valuable a thousand years ago because it had extremely high utility in the electronic's industry?
Yes, it was quite useful in electronics, chemistry, and just general sciences 100 years ago.
Gold has been used for thousands of years for far more than currency. Is that your point, TI's point, or my point? Because I feel it is my point, at this moment...but you may also be trying to make that same point.
That's easy to answer: jewelry. That much is obvious, isn't it? I think most people know that.
http://www.sbcgold.com/blog/top-6-common-uses-for-gold/
Small? That's an arbitrary label, really. To one person, the area of electronics can be a MASSIVE use of gold. To another, because it doesn't represent a majority or even a plurality of gold use (iirc, none of the uses are a majority use and jewelry use is the plurality use), it could be called small. I prefer to stick to numbers instead of arbitrary labels: we can't discuss or disagree on arbitrary labels like "small" because I think using gold for electronics is a massive use of gold.
Yeah, your arguments boiled down to getting philosophical and just dismissing contemporary utility as irrelevant to your point. As I stated before, you stated it was useless and then indirectly stated why it was useful in the same post.
To be more clear, I was disagreeing with these parts of your post:
That's wrong. It's non-monetary use is not limited to "specific parts of the electronics industry."
That's wrong or right because it is splitting philosophical hairs: it's all theoretical, as I described, earlier. From another perspective, none of it is theoretical because it is actually a significant part of global economic currency.
This is also incorrect (the "vast" part is what makes your point incorrect). Gold's value comes from several metallurgical and physical properties:
1. It is highly resistant to oxidization.
2. It is very malleable.
3. It can and could be readily obtained from ore deposits even from stone-age civilizations.
4. Gold very readily conducts electricity.
5. It has a very appealing color and luster, when worked properly (for things like jewelry use).
6. Rarity in ancient times.If gold's value only came from its shininess, it would not have made it into history as strongly as it has. Bronze can be made into a very beautiful color and with an amazing shine (some ancient mirrors were bronze and bronze jewelry is found in multiple ancient civilizations meaning it wasn't just one or the other).
Rarity + utility are the elements the contributed to gold being valued as highly as humans have in history (compared to other metals like copper(bronze)).
At this point, I won't reply to this topic any more because things will probably get out of hand. So consider this post a concession to any point you want to make or had.
'Immature shit slinging' is a nonsensical comment- that's just you being over-sensitive for your error, which was trying to pounce upon my post with ill-thought out comments. That's all on you.
Talking of tiresome- I am not going to engage in the sort of tedious quote-war posting that you think constitutes any sort of coherent argument. I'll just repeat- you are wrong., Some 90% of gold's value is purely psychological. If it was an uninteresting metal with exactly the same physical properties, it would be worth a tiny fraction of what it is now (and that you think it had high industrial value a hundred years ago is laughable. I mean, it doesn't have that now, either, but to think it did then... it just further the thoughtlessness of your post). That most of your points boil down to 'people like it because it is shiny' is also laughable, because that's pretty much the same thing I've been saying. Ditto about gold generally being used for jewellery- that BACKS my point about purely psychological value.
The practical value of gold is very small. Its psychological value is huge- just like money. Compare steel, whose psychological value is minimal but whose actual value is because it is actually useful. That's the central premise., People value gold because they like it. t's a belief-based value like cash. People value steel because it is useful. No-one needs to 'believe' in steel.
Hence, trying to make out gold has 'real' value next to paper money is very silly indeed. If you want make some sot of 'real value is better than money' argument, you have to compare to a good or service whose value is practical- else it is not any more 'real'.
Yes, but as covered, that is a small fraction of its value. About 90% of gold usage, and hence value, is based simply on its psychological value, which as I said from the start is a. historical and b. because it's pretty.
Again, if it wasn't pretty and could do all the same practical things, its value would be a fraction of what it is.
The same belief that sustains cash sustains gold.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I dunno, isn't gold (and platinum) very useful for making electronics because of its conductive properties?
Also we could compare and contrast them to say diamonds which actually are so worthless that they have to keep the supply down to make a false sense on demand to keep the price up. Where is gold, is so expensive just to get a little even when prices are low.
Originally posted by Time-ImmemorialBasically a full time hobby or job.
Hence why its more of a hobby
Assuming it takes roughly 5 minutes(That's the low end most videos I've seen on youtube are some are 10 mins long) to break down a phone if you take no breaks that is 12 phones a minute. If there is roughly 50 cents in one phone that means for an hours work you made roughly 6 dollars. You're making less then minimum wage to do this.
So your deciding what other people do for a hobby based on your non interest?
Interesting..
In other news
http://news.yahoo.com/texas-wants-gold-back-promises-build-safe-home-220638896.html
Germany wants their gold back
Originally posted by Time-ImmemorialI'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do as a hobby. I'm just questioning the idea it is very profitable is all.
So your deciding what other people do for a hobby based on your non interest?Interesting..
In other news
http://news.yahoo.com/texas-wants-gold-back-promises-build-safe-home-220638896.html
Originally posted by Ushgarak
'Immature shit slinging' is a nonsensical comment- that's just you being over-sensitive for your error, which was trying to pounce upon my post with ill-thought out comments. That's all on you.Talking of tiresome- I am not going to engage in the sort of tedious quote-war posting that you think constitutes any sort of coherent argument. I'll just repeat- you are wrong., Some 90% of gold's value is purely psychological. If it was an uninteresting metal with exactly the same physical properties, it would be worth a tiny fraction of what it is now (and that you think it had high industrial value a hundred years ago is laughable. I mean, it doesn't have that now, either, but to think it did then... it just further the thoughtlessness of your post). That most of your points boil down to 'people like it because it is shiny' is also laughable, because that's pretty much the same thing I've been saying. Ditto about gold generally being used for jewellery- that BACKS my point about purely psychological value.
The practical value of gold is very small. Its psychological value is huge- just like money. Compare steel, whose psychological value is minimal but whose actual value is because it is actually useful. That's the central premise., People value gold because they like it. t's a belief-based value like cash. People value steel because it is useful. No-one needs to 'believe' in steel.
Hence, trying to make out gold has 'real' value next to paper money is very silly indeed. If you want make some sot of 'real value is better than money' argument, you have to compare to a good or service whose value is practical- else it is not any more 'real'.
You're right. Thank you for making that clear with this last post. 👆
Originally posted by Newjak
Basically a full time hobby or job.Assuming it takes roughly 5 minutes(That's the low end most videos I've seen on youtube are some are 10 mins long) to break down a phone if you take no breaks that is 12 phones a minute. If there is roughly 50 cents in one phone that means for an hours work you made roughly 6 dollars. You're making less then minimum wage to do this.