Exar Kun vs. Palpatine

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Why is it everyone keeps bringing up the notion that so and so doesn't know X form of combat or whatever? <.<

When it's clearly told in the Jedi Path, that all Jedi are trained through all 7 forms? They master Form 1, then go to master 1 other form at the least of their choosing yet they are still trained through all the other forms...which yes, include Jar'Kai.

That wasn't my argument at all, that was Nadd twisting it because he cannot comprehend the English language.

I meant one of the reasons Vodo lost was Jar'Kai. He knew it, but perhaps he wasn't optimized to face it.

Ya know it occurs to me about the instances of Kun and Vodo fighting...Kun never won via strict skill, it always seem to be about breaking Vodo's cane...

Hmm...so Vodo > Kun.

Originally posted by MythLord
That wasn't my argument at all, that was Nadd twisting it because he cannot comprehend the English language.

I meant one of the reasons Vodo lost was Jar'Kai. He knew it, but perhaps he wasn't optimized to face it.

Fair enough, I kinda realized after I had done my post, but it was then already quoted.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Ya know it occurs to me about the instances of Kun and Vodo fighting...Kun never won via strict skill, it always seem to be about breaking Vodo's cane...

Hmm...so Vodo > Kun.

I mean, Exar likely would've outdueled him in his Sith days anyways, but the initial spar was just victory through brute strength and rage.

Originally posted by MythLord
I mean, Exar likely would've outdueled him in his Sith days anyways, but the initial spar was just victory through brute strength and rage.

Eh perhaps so, although I think that'd just be more due to his saberstaff....but then that would also come with new skills too...so I could see it.

Still it's just something I noticed when you posted those sparring scans.

Originally posted by MythLord
That wasn't my argument at all, that was Nadd twisting it because he cannot comprehend the English language.

I meant one of the reasons Vodo lost was Jar'Kai. He knew it, but perhaps he wasn't optimized to face it.

1. You gave me the impression that you want to say that Vodo does not know Jar'Kai and cannot use it in combat. And stop with my English. Yes, I am not an English person. But we all make mistakes.
You also made a mistake regarding Sion's immortality; but you don't see me telling something about you, do I?

2. Okay, at least you agree that Vodo knew and could use Jar'Kai.

I'm also not an English person, either. I come a country that despises the language, actually. But when you debate, you have to at least partially understand the other party.

Also, Sion's immortality off-nexus will always be under suspect, and that one theme doesn't translate into other threads. Bad grammar does. But you're better than Kbroskywalker, Syndicate or Aaylasecura69, so that's something. 🙂

Originally posted by MythLord
1. Yes, because looking at the actual comic, he's enraged. And Fact File notes:
"Kun was almost defeated when he snatched up a fallen lightsabre and, giving into his anger, broke his Master's cane."
-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #14
It's an undeniable fact that he was enraged.

2. He would've known and used Jar'Kai, sure, but I'm noting that he clearly wasn't optimized in facing it, especially not when Exar was enraged. Both the comic and secondary sources note that Vodo humiliated Kun in the spar initially(I mean, he defeated him in a few blows) and Exar won due to being enraged and abusing Jar'Kai:

"Instead, Kun battled his Master, who was armed with his walking cane.Kun was almost defeated when he snatched up a fallen lightsabre and, giving into his anger, broke his Master's cane."
-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #14

And what makes it even worse for Kun is that he didn't win via skill, but by breaking Vodo's staff. Had Vodo used a lightsaber instead, Exar would've still eaten dirt.
Vodo's commentary further supports this:

"Two lightsabers... against my poor stick."

3. Anakin was in a far greater state of emotional conflict than Obi-Wan, and Kenobi had let go by all accounts. Anyways, what is your basis for Exar Kun being a "newbie Jedi"? I would like to hear logic, not fanfiction.

For starters:
1) and 2)

"As the Jedi Watchman of Dantooine, Master Baas spends much of his time on the planet and trains multiple apprentices at a time. His strongest apprentice, however, is a young pupil named Exar Kun. Kun's skill with a lightsaber is so great that he claimed victory over his master many times when they sparred together."
- Jedi Academy Training Manual

You see, you can be definitely right about the instance in the comic book. Exar did it by breaking Vodo's quarterstaff.
But, as the source above hints, Exar Kun has sparred with his Jedi Master even before their sparring match in the comic book. And he always bested the Krevaaki Jedi.
Given the fact that Kun surprised Vodo with two lightsabres; it means that Exar Kun never used two lightsabres against his Master when he bested him before the events in the comic book.
So, I don't think that this particular sparring match in the comic book decreases Exar Kun's lightsabre skills.

3.) I mean that, maybe, he wasn't inducted in the Jedi Order since childhood as Anakin was or Sidious in the ways of the Sith. Maybe he was Vodo's student for just four or five years. Maybe he was a quick learner. A gifted Force-user.

Originally posted by MythLord
I'm also not an English person, either. I come a country that despises the language, actually. But when you debate, you have to at least partially understand the other party.

Also, Sion's immortality off-nexus will always be under suspect, and that one theme doesn't translate into other threads. Bad grammar does. But you're better than Kbroskywalker, Syndicate or Aaylasecura69, so that's something. 🙂

1. The only reason I took it out of the context was because I didn't pay attention to the whole thing. And I was also sleepy.

2. As about Sion. It can be both. He can also uses nexuses or use his own body. He needs dark side energy to keep in check his immortality. So he takes it from wherever he wants to.

3. Kbroskywalker is a troll and a Sheevite, Aaylasecura69(don't know her), Syndicate(are two IIRC) or the one on KMF?

Note: "I come from a country(...)"

I really don't have time to trade potshots about grammar so I'll just address your argument:

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
"As the Jedi Watchman of Dantooine, Master Baas spends much of his time on the planet and trains multiple apprentices at a time. His strongest apprentice, however, is a young pupil named Exar Kun. Kun's skill with a lightsaber is so great that he claimed victory over his master many times when they sparred together."
- Jedi Academy Training Manual

You see, you can be definitely right about the instance in the comic book. Exar did it by breaking Vodo's quarterstaff.
But, as the source above hints, Exar Kun has sparred with his Jedi Master even before their sparring match in the comic book. And he always bested the Krevaaki Jedi.
Given the fact that Kun surprised Vodo with two lightsabres; it means that Exar Kun never used two lightsabres against his Master when he bested him before the events in the comic book.
So, I don't think that this particular sparring match in the comic book decreases Exar Kun's lightsabre skills.

Yes, while Kun did beat Vodo in spars before, Baas returned the favour:

"Whilst Vodo had fought and defeated Kun many times in the past, this time he would not be so lucky.

[...]

Kun mocked the ancient Master, and did battle with him again. Vodo has previously defeated Kun using only his mysterious cane."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #20

The problem is: spars aren't reliable. Leia bested Luke in a spar, but we know Luke is canonically her better. It's likely that when Kun was fighting Baas, the latter was holding back. He was still holding back in Dark Lords of the Sith, but there he was trying to cool his arrogance and Exar was in a state of rage, hence it's a much more realistic portrayal of how their duel would go as of that timeframe than unknown, vague, previous spars. In which case, Exar can only win through use of unrothodox tactics and rage amps and otherwise got humiliated in a few blows.

This isn't a knock against Exar Kun, as he's obviously a highly talented Jedi Knight at the time, and this elevates Vodo Baas, but it proves that Exar Kun isn't yet above his master.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I mean that, maybe, he wasn't inducted in the Jedi Order since childhood as Anakin was or Sidious in the ways of the Sith. Maybe he was Vodo's student for just four or five years. Maybe he was a quick learner. A gifted Force-user.

Again, anything to back this up?

Originally posted by MythLord
I really don't have time to trade potshots about grammar so I'll just address your argument:

Yes, while Kun did beat Vodo in spars before, Baas returned the favour:

"Whilst Vodo had fought and defeated Kun many times in the past, this time he would not be so lucky.

[...]

Kun mocked the ancient Master, and did battle with him again. Vodo has previously defeated Kun using only his mysterious cane."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact File #20

The problem is: spars aren't reliable. Leia bested Luke in a spar, but we know Luke is canonically her better. It's likely that when Kun was fighting Baas, the latter was holding back. He was still holding back in Dark Lords of the Sith, but there he was trying to cool his arrogance and Exar was in a state of rage, hence it's a much more realistic portrayal of how their duel would go as of that timeframe than unknown, vague, previous spars. In which case, Exar can only win through use of unrothodox tactics and rage amps and otherwise got humiliated in a few blows.

This isn't a knock against Exar Kun, as he's obviously a highly talented Jedi Knight at the time, and this elevates Vodo Baas, but it proves that Exar Kun isn't yet above his master.

Again, anything to back this up?

1. So they were even in sparring duels, I guess.
2. Okay.
3. It is just my opinion. No facts involved. It's just that Exar Kun is too indisciplined and is willing to burst in anger; as evidenced by the DLOTS scans. It just seems to me--at least--that he isn't training for a long time within the Jedi Order. He has even problems with his fellow Jedi students. He was like a 'guest'. If something; I would say that he showed up to Vodo's dojo to be the best of them all. That's why I said 4 or 5 years. Maybe Kun was practicing with his lightsabre as most of us do with the internet apps.
It could be very possible that he quickly advanced to his Jedi Knight status, hence my 'formidable student that I have ever had'. Saying this based on his personality.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
So they were even in sparring duels, I guess.

Yeah, but when the two went all-out as in Dark Lords of the Sith, Baas won until Kun got truly enraged and broke the staff via strength.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It is just my opinion. No facts involved. It's just that Exar Kun is too indisciplined and is willing to burst in anger; as evidenced by the DLOTS scans. It just seems to me--at least--that he isn't training for a long time within the Jedi Order. He has even problems with his fellow Jedi students. He was like a 'guest'. If something; I would say that he showed up to Vodo's dojo to be the best of them all. That's why I said 4 or 5 years. Maybe Kun was practicing with his lightsabre as most of us do with the internet apps.
It could be very possible that he quickly advanced to his Jedi Knight status, hence my 'formidable student that I have ever had'. Saying this based on his personality.

Being prone to anger or being undisciplined or drawn to the Dark Side doesn't mean he was in the Order for a few years. Quinlan Vos was attracted to the Dark Side:

He was in the Jedi Order for over a decade.
Barriss Offee was trained since she was a young child and she was prone to arrogance, same goes for Mace, same goes for Dooku.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, but when the two went all-out as in Dark Lords of the Sith, Baas won until Kun got truly enraged and broke the staff via strength.

Being prone to anger or being undisciplined or drawn to the Dark Side doesn't mean he was in the Order for a few years. Quinlan Vos was attracted to the Dark Side:

He was in the Jedi Order for over a decade.
Barriss Offee was trained since she was a young child and she was prone to arrogance, same goes for Mace, same goes for Dooku.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Ya know it occurs to me about the instances of Kun and Vodo fighting...Kun never won via strict skill, it always seem to be about breaking Vodo's cane...

Hmm...so Vodo > Kun.

He's literally stated to have never stood a chance against Kun full stop. 😂

Originally posted by AncientPower
He's literally stated to have never stood a chance against Kun full stop. 😂

Doesn't mean by straight skill though does it? But that's what I just noticed really, of course yes he probably could outskill later, but what is seen however isn't is what I'm saying.

If he never stood a chance, then that means there wasn't a way in whivh he could have beaten him. Lightsaber prowess being a very important factor in said chances.

Arguably, Kun was himself holding back in the final fight because he was offering Vodo a place in his Brotherhood, as soon as Kun got serious Vodo got wrecked.

I am curious what other Jedi Padawans claimed victories against their Masters(they held back) when they sparred together?
I don't think there is any to my knowledge.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If he never stood a chance, then that means there wasn't a way in whivh he could have beaten him. Lightsaber prowess being a very important factor in said chances.

Arguably, Kun was himself holding back in the final fight because he was offering Vodo a place in his Brotherhood, as soon as Kun got serious Vodo got wrecked.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
The Mother****er of the Jedi has no limits.
Question: Have those students also burst in anger like Exar Kun did? And didn't both(Offee and Dooku) fall to the dark side?
The Mother****er of the Jedi Order should be excluded as he is a unique case. Even Quinlan Vos fell to the dark side as well and redeemed himself afterwards.
Exar Kun just doesn't look to me like these guys. He had that Sithy behavior. Btw, didn't these listed above discipline themselves due to the time's passing? I think, they did.
This is not the case for Kun, though. I still believe that he was training with the Krevaaki for 4-5 years. It would make the 'my most formidable student that I have ever had' more feasible.

Yes, all those students burst into anger, and demonstrate Dark Side behavior. And they fell to the Dark Side because they were attracted to it, much like Kun, despite decades of being in the Order and being taught the Light Side, control, calm, clarity, etc.
What I'm getting at is that he isn't neccessarily a "newbie" with only a few years of training just because he has Dark Side tendencies.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yes, all those students burst into anger, and demonstrate Dark Side behavior. And they fell to the Dark Side because they were attracted to it, much like Kun, despite decades of being in the Order and being taught the Light Side, control, calm, clarity, etc.
What I'm getting at is that he isn't neccessarily a "newbie" with only a few years of training just because he has Dark Side tendencies.