Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Right so me being supported by my friend = them being biased.But you being supported by your friends, people who dislike me and people who like seeing us fight for drama = true factz
🙄
Lulz. Anyways point is, mrbutthurt. I'm not making her arguments for her so simmer down like a good pot.
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/dirty-pot-white-background-34808530.jpg
😛
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Fated, hide behind your insults, and your feigned moral superiority all you want, and even behind Aurbere and others because you can't fight your own battles, none of that, nor my debate with Sel, will change the fact that I am currently a better debater than you will ever be.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Fated, hide behind your insults, and your feigned moral superiority all you want, and even behind Aurbere and others because you can't fight your own battles, none of that, nor my debate with Sel, will change the fact that I am currently a better debater than you will ever be.
LMAO. Sure, sure, sure. Yadayada. I am Satan hear my fabulous roar! Rawr!
Don't care about that, i ain't about that life. Tbh
Originally posted by Selenial
Urgh, this argument annoys me. Yes, magnaguards vary. They vary a lot. They all learn from experience, and Grievous trains his best by hand, fighting them face to face. You can compare the Magnaguard Ti fought with Kenobi's because he was part of the same strike force that faced her. We also know the Magnaguards that Ti faced were the best, because Grievous hand picked them all for the most important assignment the confederacy had faced in years.The ones she faced were evidently not the same as the ones Ahsoka fought, not to mention the fact they're from different mediums. The Clone Wars cartoon was oversaw to be a precursor to Episode 3, a Star Wars Episode 2.5 if you will (since so much had to be cut from Ep 3), characters would be displayed more coherently in those two sources than from something that was released over five years later, obviously.
You can't dismiss her feat because Magnaguard's vary, that's farcical logic.
Labyrinth of Evil
To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that.In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs... The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike.
And were taking blows from Red Guards, who while good, certainly are not even close to the levels of the Jedi:
Labyrinth of Evil
Grievous saw six of the soldiers and three of the Red Guards jolted to spasming deaths by the MagnaGuards' double-tipped scepters. One of his elite had gone down, as well, but even though blinded and savagely slashed by the guards' staffs, the droid was continuing to fight.
And getting matched and defeated by Jedi who Grievous considers novices with only basic dueling techniques who Grievous managed to basically casually one shot while they had allies present.
Labyrinth of Evil
Also for effect, he deflected the initial flurry of blaster bolts with his clawed hands, before drawing two of his lightsabers. His brazenness summoned the Jedi to him in a flash, but he knew in the first moments of contest that he had nothing to worry about.
Labyrinth of Evil
Perhaps if Palpatine had been intelligent enough to have surrounded himself with real Jedi - - Jedi of the caliber of Windu and the tentacle-headed Kit Fisto - - the engagement might have gone differently. Fencing with his four adversaries - - for that's all the fight amounted to - -
Labyrinth of EvilIf time wasn't of the essence, he might have protracted the fight. Feinting with the blade in his right hand, he removed the head of one Jedi with the blade in his left.Distracted when his right foot inadvertently booted the rolling head of his comrade, the Ithorian dropped his guard momentarily, and received as penalty a thrust to the heart that dropped him to his knees before he pitched forward. Stepping back to absorb what had happened, the two remaining Jedi came at Grievous in concert, twirling and leaping about as if putting on some sort of crowd-pleasing martial arts demonstration. For practice, Grievous called two more blades from his belt, grasping them in his feet even as the antigrav repulsors built into his legs were lifting him from the floor, making him every bit as agile as the Force did the Jedi.
With his four blades to the Jedi's two, the duel had come full circle. Whirling, he severed the blade hand of the Talz, then his opposing foot, then took his l ife, as well. Mists of blood formed in the air, swirled about by the ventilators.
watch?v=TYxu2JNs66o
7:10-7:35, 9:11-9:25
So if you are going to argue these specific magnaguards, though they were handpicked by Grievous (for whatever worth that is) they are still not near the level of challenging Kenobi in this manner as you are suggesting, and a comparison with the other "handpicked" magnaguards that accompanied Grievous to kidnap the chancellor completely supports that they are nowhere near the level where they'd challenge Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Selenial
You also didn't really address the Tuk'ata counter argument at all.
Originally posted by Selenial
I feel like you're confusing different parts of their duel, honey.
Originally posted by Selenial
Are you trying to use Kota and Paratus' lack of exposure as proof of their ineptitude with a blade? Just fyi, Paratus only kept up with Galen because his legs provided him with a massive speed advantage, and Kota was a famed master of Juyo with some pretty insane feats. He survived days in an arena, fighting literally non stop, and survived the massive TK displayed my Marek against him. He seems to be a pretty top notch combatant.
Originally posted by Selenial
Besides, we know Galen improved in skill after that, what we don't know is that he improved in skill after fighting Shaak Ti, as that's never stated. Seems kind of fitting, if you ask me, that he doesn't improve much after what was designed to be his final test.Indeed, he notes that, but he and Vader hadn't fought since he was sent to Kota anyway, so it's pretty irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, I know Marek improved after Felucia, or you could argue by extension that Shaak is Vader tier. What we do know however is that his improvements were not blade oriented, and were not hugely significant, so she's definitely getting up there. He is, by this point, about as good as he'll ever be with a Lightsaber. Pretending like we don't know how good he was at that point, just to discredit the feat, isn't what I expect of you mmm.
The Force Unleashed
THE APPRENTICE CROUCHED FACEDOWN in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to one mistake his Master had made. He had been rebuilt tougher than before.
The Force Unleashed
The apprentice nodded, satisfied that his skills had improved since Nar Shaddaa.
The Force Unleashed
All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before.
The Force Unleashed
“I’m not wearing out,” he said. “The moorings were tough, but I feel stronger than ever now. It gets easier, I think, the harder you try. The Force is stronger than anything we can imagine. We’re the ones who limit it, not the other way around.”
Considering that skill, physicality, and Force ability all so heavily factor into dueling, and that Galen has confirmed increases in all of these categories, with a very profound increase in power (which would tie into force augmentation, perception, precog, etc.), I quite frankly don't see how we can scale Felucia Galen and by extension Shaak off of Peak Galen or Vader in any meaningful way, and think that doing so given all the improvements Galen has undergone is stretching things.
Originally posted by Selenial
Well, she took a maximum of 6 on at once. While obviously not the same as 12, given how they obviously didn't all attack at once, she was on a Dark Side Nexus and had fought her way through many more beasts even getting there... the feats are basically the same.As for Talon, the point is she killed one while dueling a better duelist than her. They're obviously not much of a threat to a trained Sith.
Originally posted by Selenial
I've kinda forgotten how this is even relevant to a Lightsaber duel anyway, seeing as Kenobi's a far better duelist than Bane but still supposedly struggled with one. If you're trying to maintain the stance they're the same, that is.
Originally posted by Selenial
Both quite vague terms, tbh. Numerous sources depict them as quite small.
Originally posted by Selenial
It's an either/or scenario. If they're large, he won't have to fight more than 2. If they're small, what a phenomenal feat 🙄
Originally posted by Selenial
This all seems like quite basic pack animal stuff :/
The Dark Side Sourcebook
The ancient Sith Lords alchemically altered the already brutal canines of their world, adding horns, increasing their size, and doubling their brain mass. Some have hypothesized that if Sith hounds had the physical capability and the inclination, they could even speak sentient languages.
I'd say your argument that the Tuk'ata have no capability for tactically intelligent teamwork (as was the orginal argument that started this debate about intelligence and tactics) doesn't even remotely stand, as they are blatantly stated to have both good tactical intelligence and teamwork.
Originally posted by Selenial
But again, why is this relevant? It quite obviously doesn't pertain to dueling skill whatsoever unless you're trying to say this iteration of Bane could take Anakin and Obi-Wan on at the same time? 😕Taking on Tuk'ata and dueling aren't the same thing, sweetie.
Originally posted by Selenial
Well, ngl, that was a difficult paragraph to read (wtb end of sentences) so if I miss anything let me know.
In fact, aside from the Tuk'ata feat, you didn't ever in your entire post counter anything else related to Kas'im's dueling ability. You never countered Trainee Bane stomping Sirak, and subsequently never countered Kas'im's ability to near blitz trainee Bane.
Originally posted by Selenial
I've already clarified why dismissing the Marek and Magnaguard feats is foolhardy, so I won't bother repeating myself.
Originally posted by Selenial
I do however question what your response is to Shaak Ti's hype, as one of the greatest swordsmasters of the order (placed above individuals like Agen Kolar, Vos, Tiin and Fisto), someone revered by the Jedi for her combat capabilities etc... over a decade before her prime?
Revenge of the Sith
"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"
Originally posted by Selenial
You're essentially trying to dismiss her feats as hard to place, but even if that was true her hype is enough to solidify a parity between her and Kas'im.
Kas'im himself is consistently revered as easily the greatest duelist in the brotherhood, even by people like Githany who would be severely underrating Kas'im's dueling abilities (given that Kas'im hasn't demonstrated nearly the full extent of his abilities to his students, even with a saberstaff), and even people hilariously beneath Kas'im as duelists are similarly held in regard for their skills. Kaan who was viewed as the embodiment of the Dark Side by Githany is considered by Githany to be laughably beneath holding back Kas'im as a duelist, and Kaan was used as a simulation for the trial of skill because he was considered by Jedi historians to be one of the worst monsters ever to arrive from the Dark Side, and Kaan was stated to have worked to develop all of his talents evenly (which if this is even remotely true, Kaan's utterly insane telepathic abilities and war changing battle meditation should prove his abilities in all areas to be very considerably developed), and Kaan even before turning to the dark side was able to slay the worst of the Sith Warlords and Force the rest to beg for peace. And Kiel Charny, someone whose defenses were torn through by Githany (who would've been destroyed by Sirak, who got completely and utterly stomped by Trainee Bane, who would've been stomped near instantly by Kas'im etc.), was revered as one of the great champions of the Jedi Order, was considered by the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia to be "in many ways a true warrior who epitomized the Jedi ideal."
Kas'im was also hyped as the greatest living swordsman in the Galaxy which puts him above Lord Hoth (who was considered a Jedi Hero in his teens, and the revered Jedi Battlemaster who was a hero for many by his mid-twenties, and who was considered the greatest Jedi fighter by Pernicar) and Raskta Lsu (who as a Jedi Weapons Master is already one of the most skilled duelists in the history of the Jedi Order, is the most skilled Jedi duelist alive and better than Hoth, and is personally responsible for killing over a thousand Sith Lords). Not to mention, Kas'im's technical skill is also hyped to a pretty considerable degree considering he spent years mastering all seven forms (which would also include mastering several forms to a high level as a prerequisite for Juyo mastery) prior to spending decades after that taking his skills to an even further degree until he had perfected every move and sequence of lightsaber combat.
So no, Shaak Ti was not hyped above the Jedi Masters you mentioned, and no, Shaak Ti's hype as one of the greatest duelists in the order doesn't match Kas'im's superior feats (which you haven't even addressed aside from the Tuk'ata argument), Kas'im's superior technical mastery, and Kas'im's quite frankly superior hype.
Originally posted by Selenial
She doesn't need to be better than him, just his equal, since she eviscerates him in every other department.
Originally posted by Selenial
... right.You don't seem to be understanding this. The force required to reduce a man to a puddle (which is hyperbole, tbfh) isn't significant when you look at other force feats. Force users lifting tonnes of rock etc, should require much more energy. My analogy with Sidious and Nyriss however had them doing equally as much damage to force users who could actually put up barriers, which indicates their raw power is exponentially higher than the attack Bane performed. Ergo, it's quite standard.
And "The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid" seems pretty explicit to me, and you calling it hyperbole is unfounded and unsubstantiated. If this on its own doesn't provide the feat with enough impressiveness, then consider the fact that the surrounding area made up of several tons of stone was completely obliterated by the telekinetic blast, and that the wave itself collapsed the temple of the ancients and shook its very foundations, which were stated to be far beneath the surface of the planet, and that the portion of the wave Kas'im shielded himself from was in fact the focal point
Originally posted by Selenial
Not to mention, Marek has the feats of destroying several Storm Troopers and other soldiers to the same extent, and if you want to see how Shaak Ti's force attacks went against him I'm happy to post the skan.
And comparing Shaak Ti to Galen Marek? In all three sources Marek is portrayed as Shaak's superior with the Force. In the game Marek just kinda blatantly overpowers her with his Force abilities, in the novel Marek stops her in place with the Force to prevent her from killing him in her mutually assured destruction attempt and that's the only time either use their force abilities directly on each other, and in the comic Shaak Ti is stated to not be able to contain Galen's power even with the planet at her command, and Galen ultimately wounds her pretty severely with a Force repulse (she's clutching at her abdomen and bleeding out of her mouth and ears):
So even in the comic, which is what people use to wank the Force abilities Ti displayed against Galen the most, Galen was still notably her superior as a Force wielder.
Now, with Kas'im pushing a temple buster down a staircase, and actually effectively shielding himself from Bane's attack while Shaak got severely injured by Galen's Force repulse, the two are hardly as far away from each other in the Force as you are suggesting, and quite frankly I'm not seeing much of a disparity.
Originally posted by Selenial
No? You seem to misunderstand me, allow me to reiterate my point. You used Savage Opress as an example, and he works. Savage's force wave would have broken the bones of, and liquified any normal Human Being (We've seen him come close when he wasn't even in a rage) the fact it didn't happen to Kenobi and Skywalker, yet they were blown back, doesn't mean they failed to block the worst of it, just that they failed to block all of it. The blast was likely capable of the exact same effect, we just didn't get to see it written in novel form.
Originally posted by Selenial
Furthermore, you cannot use the effect on the environment as a measuring stick, Savage's force push was likely far more direct, as if he wasn't he would have shattered the bridge which he was on.
Originally posted by Selenial
So you want a lack of exploration to fall back on? Hardly apt debating, DMB. The only fight we've seen where it could really come into play was her fights with the Magnaguards, and her fight with Galen.
Originally posted by Selenial
With Galen, she lured him into a favorable environment, and exploited every tactical advantage she could, over him.
Now I'm not gonna try and lowball Shaak Ti because of this and say it makes her shit or lowers her tactical abilities because I'm not one of those people, but looking at this engagement under scrutiny, it's sketchy as **** and really shouldn't be used to wank Shaak Ti's tactical abilities.
Originally posted by Selenial
With the magnaguards, she lured them to areas where it was easier to kill them.
Originally posted by Selenial
When facing a dozen of them, her cunning ended up allowing her to perform a feat most other Jedi couldn't replicate, as she switched to an unconventional style favoring raw power and brute force, surprising her foes who expected a continued assault with Ataru and Makashi...
Kas'im's own use of deception as it relates to combat (concealing Jar'kai and encouraging tactical deception and cunning to his students), practiced talent at observing and understanding the techniques and styles of others, his broad knowledge and experience on fighting techniques, and his fighting style being perfectly suited to versatility and adaptation should allow him to adjust to Shaak Ti's tactics and cunning pretty effectively, especially seeing as he is faster than Shaak and the greater duelist of the two.
Originally posted by Selenial
For the speed stuff, you stated that and then never countered the arguments put forward by others which pointed out the flaws in yours. If you're not conceding the speed front, go back and address them so we can start up that debate again.
And I did counter your argument about Shaak Ti's speed she demonstrated against the magnaguards by pointing out that Kas'im's speed shown against Bane is superior.
Quite frankly, Kas'im being capable of utterly eviscerating trainee Bane on the first offensive sequence with his speed, an opponent who utterly stomped Sirak and moved faster than a room of near Sith Masters could perceive, is noticeably more impressive than blitzing magnaguards, who were being blitzed by Fisto, contended with to some extent by Red Guards, and matched and cut down by Jedi Grievous essentially one shot while they had allies present.
And this is a speed feat accomplished by Kas'im while wielding a saberstaff when he would have a considerably higher striking speed wielding Jar'kai, based upon Jar'kai being Kas'im's preferred form, and Kas'im's own statements about the limitations of the saberstaff ("It requires longer, sweeping movements that don't transition well into a quick stab or thrust."😉 compared with the logical heightened striking speed from having two separate weapons.
So all of this in mind, Kas'im is definitely the faster of the two.
Originally posted by Selenial
Well, I'll allow you to attempt to refute what I've just typed up. However, in my eyes, Shaak Ti is every bit Kas'im's equal with a blade, if not his superior. She's a greater battlefield tactician, who eclipses him in both Strength and Speed, even if speed won't be a huge factor. Even though he could potentially defend against her Strength, it gives her a large advantage in their duel that will allow her to press forward with her Force Advantage. Even if Kas'im somehow erects stronger barriers than Galen Marek (A Jedi who'd TK'd thousands of droids and a factory at this point) he lacks the stamina showings that Ti has, and with no way to overcome her, it's simply a matter of time before he falls.
For obvious reasons (I apologize, this ran MUCH longer than I thought it would), feel free to take as much time as you need to respond.
Kas'im's own use of deception as it relates to combat (concealing Jar'kai and encouraging tactical deception and cunning to his students), practiced talent at observing and understanding the techniques and styles of others, his broad knowledge and experience on fighting techniques, and his fighting style being perfectly suited to versatility and adaptation should allow him to adjust to Shaak Ti's tactics and cunning pretty effectively, especially seeing as he is faster than Shaak and the greater duelist of the tw
Withholding knowledge of a lightsaber form isn't cunning or deception on Kas'im's part, especially when you're trying to wank his broad knowledge/experience which utterly failed him when fighting Bane. Its more of the fact he is a pussy and can't win and had to sabotage Bane's training, but yeah his not sharing and loss at Bane's hand is totally a good showing for him 👆
