Originally posted by Emperordmb
And that's why Ahsoka cut down three of them on literally her first week as a Padawan, or Nahdar scrapping them? And you say tuk'ata vary when Magnaguards are noted to vary by experience?Observing the magnaguards that landed on Coruscant (as that seems to be the best thing to do to you know, get a read on the magnaguards that were on coruscant), Fisto basically blitzed two of them, dancing in circles around them and dismembering them with every rotation, and they were also being matched and defeated by Jedi Grievous considered relative novices, so no I don't think a Kenobi comparison is warranted here any more than an Ahsoka/Nahdar one is.
Urgh, this argument annoys me. Yes, magnaguards vary. They vary a lot. They all learn from experience, and Grievous trains his best by hand, fighting them face to face. You can compare the Magnaguard Ti fought with Kenobi's because he was part of the same strike force that faced her. We also know the Magnaguards that Ti faced were the best, because Grievous hand picked them all for the most important assignment the confederacy had faced in years.
The ones she faced were evidently not the same as the ones Ahsoka fought, not to mention the fact they're from different mediums. The Clone Wars cartoon was oversaw to be a precursor to Episode 3, a Star Wars Episode 2.5 if you will (since so much had to be cut from Ep 3), characters would be displayed more coherently in those two sources than from something that was released over five years later, obviously.
You can't dismiss her feat because Magnaguard's vary, that's farcical logic. You also didn't really address the Tuk'ata counter argument at all.
You mean like how Shaak Ti commanded the flora and fauna of the planet to attack him? mmm
I feel like you're confusing different parts of their duel, honey.
And again, you're acting as if Galen Marek at this point can be compared to Bane and Kas'im by anything other than his fight with Shaak Ti (which wouldn't work here due to circular logic), when all he has is being called near perfect in a few forms (which doesn't measure up to Kas'im), getting matched by Rahm Kota who has no dueling feats other than fighting Galen, and not overcoming Kazdan Paratus, who has no dueling feats other than fighting Galen Marek.
Are you trying to use Kota and Paratus' lack of exposure as proof of their ineptitude with a blade? Just fyi, Paratus only kept up with Galen because his legs provided him with a massive speed advantage, and Kota was a famed master of Juyo with some pretty insane feats. He survived days in an arena, fighting literally non stop, and survived the massive TK displayed my Marek against him. He seems to be a pretty top notch combatant.
Besides, we know Galen improved in skill after that, what we don't know is that he improved in skill after fighting Shaak Ti, as that's never stated. Seems kind of fitting, if you ask me, that he doesn't improve much after what was designed to be his final test.
Yeah, he kept up with Vader after his abilities progressed further after Felucia, but prior to that he notes that he and Vader had never fought as equals and that Vader had always been holding back on him.
Indeed, he notes that, but he and Vader hadn't fought since he was sent to Kota anyway, so it's pretty irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, I know Marek improved after Felucia, or you could argue by extension that Shaak is Vader tier. What we do know however is that his improvements were not blade oriented, and were not hugely significant, so she's definitely getting up there. He is, by this point, about as good as he'll ever be with a Lightsaber. Pretending like we don't know how good he was at that point, just to discredit the feat, isn't what I expect of you mmm.
3 tonne?
How many the Exile killed in total isn't quite the same as Bane taking on a dozen at once tbh, and Talon killing one Tuk'ata doesn't compare either.
Well, she took a maximum of 6 on at once. While obviously not the same as 12, given how they obviously didn't all attack at once, she was on a Dark Side Nexus and had fought her way through many more beasts even getting there... the feats are basically the same.
As for Talon, the point is she killed one while dueling a better duelist than her. They're obviously not much of a threat to a trained Sith.
At least the two other known instances where a group similarly sized to the one that faced Bane have shown up, they've given trouble to Jedi groups consisting of some of the Order's greatest duelists. Not to mention Sorzus Syn, a Sith powerful enough to create leviathans and one of Sidious's most powerful predecessors was almost killed by some of them prior to the Sith's further enhancements of them.
I've kinda forgotten how this is even relevant to a Lightsaber duel anyway, seeing as Kenobi's a far better duelist than Bane but still supposedly struggled with one. If you're trying to maintain the stance they're the same, that is.
Not to mention they've been noted by the Jedi (prior to encountering them in Jedi Quest btw) as gigantic creatures, and in the SWTOR codex as oversized as well, so a large size should be the standard, as SWTOR, and every comic they've appeared in seems to show.
Both quite vague terms, tbh. Numerous sources depict them as quite small.
First of all, are the Tuk'ata too large to fight in tandem? Or are they pathetic dog size? Make up your mind Sel.
And they don't work in unison? Easy to manipulate? Ummm...Seem pretty tactically intelligent prior to having their brain mass doubled by the Sith Lords.[
Sith hounds are one of the most unpredictable "animal" enemies in the galaxy. Sometimes they attack as soon as they feel threatened. More often they sit patiently, waiting for an opening in their opponent's defenses. This is especially true if they believe a foe does not realize their true nature. Packs of Sith hounds can execute complicated hunting and attack maneuvers, guided by their enhanced intelligence and canine ancestry. Never underestimate them."
-The Dark Side Sourcebook
^oh, seems like they've got amazing teamwork as well^
This all seems like quite basic pack animal stuff :/
And also, the Tuk'ata are force sensitive creatures.
"There were simply too many of them, and they were too strong with the dark side of the Force."-Fate of the Jedi: Ascension[quote]
Wait so is this Kas'im vs Shaak or Shaak vs 12 Tuk'ata? mmmIdk why their hype is relevant when in numerous sources they're massacred quite easily.
[quote]You're mistaken actually, as Kas'im would've basically almost blitzed Bane at this point in time, being capable of killing Bane with his very first lightsaber sequence prior to their duel on Lehon.
But again, why is this relevant? It quite obviously doesn't pertain to dueling skill whatsoever unless you're trying to say this iteration of Bane could take Anakin and Obi-Wan on at the same time? 😕
Taking on Tuk'ata and dueling aren't the same thing, sweetie.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
[B]So yes, in summation, Kas'im being capable of stomping trainee Bane within his first dueling sequence when Bane has already curbstomped a duelist who would destroy a duelist who tore through the defenses of one of the Jedi's champions and soloed a dozen Tuk'ata with his saber skills when surrounded hungry and tired, should put him noticeably above Shaak Ti whose best dueling feats are her duel with Marek (which really doesn't mean much since Marek has little in the way of dueling feats to substantiate him at this point... well aside from his duel with Shaak but that would be circular logic) and her magnaguard feat (which given the disparity of magnaguard's abilities and the level the mangaguards that landed with Grievous on coruscant are shown at, is quite frankly no less sketchy than the Tuk'ata feat).
Well, ngl, that was a difficult paragraph to read (wtb end of sentences) so if I miss anything let me know.
I've already clarified why dismissing the Marek and Magnaguard feats is foolhardy, so I won't bother repeating myself. I do however question what your response is to Shaak Ti's hype, as one of the greatest swordsmasters of the order (placed above individuals like Agen Kolar, Vos, Tiin and Fisto), someone revered by the Jedi for her combat capabilities etc... over a decade before her prime? You're essentially trying to dismiss her feats as hard to place, but even if that was true her hype is enough to solidify a parity between her and Kas'im.
In all honesty, I simply don't see how Shaak is a better duelist than Kas'im, given how little Galen has to go off of at this point, and given the similarities between Shaak Ti's mangaguard feat and Bane's Tuk'ata feat.Sure Shaak Ti's magnaguard feat is better than Bane's tuk'ata feat, but the two are comparable enough that Kas'im being capable of stomping Bane at that point in time kinda blows Shaak's magnaguard feat out of the water.
She doesn't need to be better than him, just his equal, since she eviscerates him in every other department.
Pretty standard for force users=Sidious and NyrissYou are using examples of lightning from some of the greatest lightning wielders in the mythos to suggest that telekinetically reducing a man to a puddle is standard for force users, and that simply doesn't fly.
And no, I'd say reducing a man to a puddle with telekinesis is pretty non-standard and very damn impressive.
... right.
You don't seem to be understanding this. The force required to reduce a man to a puddle (which is hyperbole, tbfh) isn't significant when you look at other force feats. Force users lifting tonnes of rock etc, should require much more energy. My analogy with Sidious and Nyriss however had them doing equally as much damage to force users who could actually put up barriers, which indicates their raw power is exponentially higher than the attack Bane performed. Ergo, it's quite standard.
Not to mention, Marek has the feats of destroying several Storm Troopers and other soldiers to the same extent, and if you want to see how Shaak Ti's force attacks went against him I'm happy to post the skan.
So you're saying Force users block telekinesis that powerful all the time, I counter by saying that Force users have been overcome by Force waves that don't deal that much damage to the enemies they strike, and your counter is that either they weren't defending themselves, or if they were it's automatically better?
No? You seem to misunderstand me, allow me to reiterate my point. You used Savage Opress as an example, and he works. Savage's force wave would have broken the bones of, and liquified any normal Human Being (We've seen him come close when he wasn't even in a rage) the fact it didn't happen to Kenobi and Skywalker, yet they were blown back, doesn't mean they failed to block the worst of it, just that they failed to block all of it. The blast was likely capable of the exact same effect, we just didn't get to see it written in novel form.
Furthermore, you cannot use the effect on the environment as a measuring stick, Savage's force push was likely far more direct, as if he wasn't he would have shattered the bridge which he was on.
Okay then, could you actually provide some instances for Shaak Ti's "cunning" having a notable impact on her fights so that we can actually quantify this variable, instead of saying she outsmarts Kas'im and defeats him because she's cunning?
So you want a lack of exploration to fall back on? Hardly apt debating, DMB. The only fight we've seen where it could really come into play was her fights with the Magnaguards, and her fight with Galen.
With Galen, she lured him into a favorable environment, and exploited every tactical advantage she could, over him. With the magnaguards, she lured them to areas where it was easier to kill them. When facing a dozen of them, her cunning ended up allowing her to perform a feat most other Jedi couldn't replicate, as she switched to an unconventional style favoring raw power and brute force, surprising her foes who expected a continued assault with Ataru and Makashi...
First of all I did not state that the singular advantages of Kas'im's skills was his versatility and adaptability, I also asserted that in magnitude of dueling skill, Kas'im is simply a greater duelist, which I reaffirmed earlier in my post when discussing Kas'im's stompage of trainee Bane.
Fair enough, I've obviously misunderstood that mmm
Secondly, never did I concede that Shaak Ti is faster than Kas'im, in fact I stated pretty clearly that I considered Kas'im the faster of the two. Something I continue to uphold. I also never conceded that Shaak Ti possessed better Force defenses than Kas'im (an area you haven't provided any evidence to substantiate), and while I conceded that Shaak has demonstrated greater offensive force abilities, I've argued Kas'im blocking an attack that would've reduced him to a puddle provides him good enough defenses to cope with this.
For the speed stuff, you stated that and then never countered the arguments put forward by others which pointed out the flaws in yours. If you're not conceding the speed front, go back and address them so we can start up that debate again.
So if I can elucidate why I think Kas'im wins, his insane barrier feat should allow him to shield himself from Shaak Ti's Force attacks, and his superior dueling feats, greater versatility, and greater speed should allow him to defeat her in a duel.
Well, I'll allow you to attempt to refute what I've just typed up. However, in my eyes, Shaak Ti is every bit Kas'im's equal with a blade, if not his superior. She's a greater battlefield tactician, who eclipses him in both Strength and Speed, even if speed won't be a huge factor. Even though he could potentially defend against her Strength, it gives her a large advantage in their duel that will allow her to press forward with her Force Advantage. Even if Kas'im somehow erects stronger barriers than Galen Marek (A Jedi who'd TK'd thousands of droids and a factory at this point) he lacks the stamina showings that Ti has, and with no way to overcome her, it's simply a matter of time before he falls.
PS: Typed this off my phone while on a train, because I'm busy af atm. Please forgive any typos or weird autocorrects, **** proof reading.
Originally posted by Selenial
TBH to say I'm half assing this debate would be an understatement. I know next to nothing about the Bane trilogy characters since I managed to wipe the horse shit y'all call the Bane novels out of my memory.So like, don't expect much.
No one really cares about the Bane Trilogy anyway. Except for [REDACTED], but does that really matter?
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
If only he'd be alone. I tried to give CV another shot this week. The first thing I saw was someone thinking Zannah can beat in sabers only.
I was going to ask "Zannah beat who?" and then remembered literally anyone who could pick up a blade would mop the floor with her 🙂