Originally posted by The_Tempest
One is a seasoned and extraordinary duelist who has gone toe-to-toe with one of the most powerful Force adepts of all time and attributed with some significant feats and accolades.The other is Kas'im, who loses.
Kas'im dies.
Alrighty then.
Originally posted by Selenial
Shaak Ti is faster, stronger and far more cunning than Kas'im. She has proven herself to be a far greater duelist than someone who has been trained to perfection.
Strength wise, Kas'im due to a lack of exposure doesn't have much in the way of strength feats, but he was capable of trading blows with Bane, a Djem So specialist who was the most heavily muscled cortosis miner on Apatros before developing great skill in physical augmentation as a Sith.
The quote I believe said Marek was trained to "all but perfection" with skill in Juyo Shien and Soresu, while Kas'im mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat and spent an even longer time perfecting every move and sequence of those forms. In any case, Shaak Ti didn't "far" surpass Marek, considering their duel ended with her impaling herself on his blade in an attempted mutual destruction outcome. Shaak Ti was definitely pressing the engagement more than Marek was, but he was holding his own a little too well for her to far surpass him as a duelist.
Originally posted by Selenial
One may argue Kas'im is more skilled, but that is flawed. Kas'im's skill accolades come from a POD Bane, who'd never encountered a true masterful duelist before. Galen's on the other hand come from a point of view that's far more reliable, yet he was "lucky to have survived" his duel with her.
If the accolade of Kas'im possibly being the greatest duelist of all time comes from an omniscient narrator, that's insanely impressive. If it came from Bane, it's coming from a guy who has spent hours reading exaggerated accounts of the ancient Sith where they do shit like blow up stars and wipe out entire solar systems, and regards the ancient Sith as beings of insane power and regards the Brotherhood of Darkness with great contempt, then it's no mean feat for a duelist of the brotherhood to perform at such a standard that Bane would entertain the notion of them being the best duelist who had ever lived.
Is Kas'im the greatest duelist who had ever lived up until his death, most likely not. It's still an impressive accolade that really shouldn't be casually dismissed.
Originally posted by Selenial
In the aspect of Force usage, she has used Tutaminis to divert Lightning attacks sent at her by Starkiller, and has dealt with him launching telekinetic debris at her mid combat. She's shown herself to be a powerful practitioner of Kinetite and is more than a match for Kas'im in the force. Most people would say she could destroy him with it rather easily 👆
Basically, I believe Kas'im can defend against her force abilities and overcome her in lightsaber combat.
I did read your respect thread, and I can definitely understand your respect for Shaak Ti. I myself rate her among the higher half of the PT Council as of ROTS and she's actually one of my favorite PT era Jedi. I definitely think she could put up a great fight, but as my first post on this thread makes it clear I think Kas'im would win.
And I'd also like to state that I don't use Shaak Ti's supposedly low showings against Grievous against her, given the circumstances of her being tired from previous engagements, and I don't advocate the Shaak Ti was amped/Marek was hindered side of the Felucia Nexus controversy thing.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Alrighty then.
I doubt Shaak Ti is faster, considering Kas'im was initially outpacing Bane at the beginning of their fight on Lehon, and this was a Bane who had significantly improved since his duel with Sirak where he moved faster than the other Sith apprentices could even see.
I can understand you saying Bane improved, but that doesn't actually mean he got faster.
Galen's got a similar feat by the way;
Then Starkiller was up and defending himself so quickly that Juno had hardly seen him move.
And yet she was faster than Marek was during their duel.
"Shaak Ti's lightsaber was a jagged blue blur between them. He blocked her as best he could until he had his balance again.Then he jumped. Over her he spun and fell down two layers of teeth toward the mouth of the sarlacc. From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all."
So honestly, determining which is faster might be difficult. I do hold to the fact that Shaak Ti is, but I can see the argument for the other way. Either way, speed won't be a determining factor in this fight, as I'm sure you'll agree.
Strength wise, Kas'im due to a lack of exposure doesn't have much in the way of strength feats, but he was capable of trading blows with Bane, a Djem So specialist who was the most heavily muscled cortosis miner on Apatros before developing great skill in physical augmentation as a Sith.
She also has the feat of crushing the head of a magnaguard, and holding off 9 of them at once in a bladelock, which is an immense display of strength:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11123/111233150/4616421-4381269522-42146.gif
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11123/111233150/4616435-2365412214-m8ra7.gif
The quote I believe said Marek was trained to "all but perfection" with skill in Juyo Shien and Soresu, while Kas'im mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat and spent an even longer time perfecting every move and sequence of those forms. In any case, Shaak Ti didn't "far" surpass Marek, considering their duel ended with her impaling herself on his blade in an attempted mutual destruction outcome. Shaak Ti was definitely pressing the engagement more than Marek was, but he was holding his own a little too well for her to far surpass him as a duelist.
He mastered all 7 forms, yes. That's more knowledge than Galen, yes. I think however the technical mastery of Lightsaber arts is being a tad overrated here. Instead of saying he mastered more forms, we need to look at how that's even an advantage here, because really it's not much of one. Shaak Ti mastered Makashi and Ataru, so her forms have no glaring weaknesses that he could exploit with another form (Like Kit Fisto being weak to Makashi, etc). She has encountered, and is proficient in, Jar'kai fencing, so he can't use that to secure an easy win. I struggle to believe he'd be superior, especially far superior, to one of the greatest Swordmasters alive.
"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."
Even if he is, Technical mastery doesn't mean anything unless he can back it up with Strength, Speed, Force Barriers, Force Attacks, Cunning, precognition and more. You are arguing he has better than her in the majority of the above, I don't believe he does. If he's outclassed in those areas, technical skill will not save him.
So if we look at those areas, I've addressed the first two already.
For Force Barriers and Tutaminis, I don't believe the Lehon feat is quite as impressive as you would have us believe. I respect it, but I don't think it's as incredible as you say. In Star Wars, there's two types of Force Attacks that are used in duels. One's a wide hitting, environmental destroying attack. The other is a targeted and precise attack. Bane's wave had enough of a kinetic force to shatter his bones and break his body, yes. But when you actually look at what Kas'im had to defend, really it was just that. A telekinetic push that would normally shatter one's bones and break one's body.
Defending that, as a force user, isn't that impressive. Darth Maul has done the same to normal individuals:
"Then the rest opened fire at once. Maul leapt and jinked, spun and rolled, an acrobatic wonder, impossible to target. He stopped once to raise his hand and pepper his opponents with a flurry of Force-hurled glassware and sharp instruments. He turned blasters against each other and wrenched one fighter down onto a table with enough force to snap the man's spine."
Yet he could never do it to Kenobi, Jinn, or the other Jedi he's faced. It stands to reason that it's an easy attack to defend against. And really it should be. When you narrow down the scale and actually look at what Kas'im blocked, it's not as impressive. And it's not proof that he can resist what even Galen Marek could not.
In terms of battlefield strategy and cunning, Shaak Ti should be able to manipulate Kas'im to her advantage. She was considered the most cunning Jedi alive, and was praised by Palpatine for her tactical ingenuity. She utilized it in combat against Starkiller as well, by predicting the advantage he would go for and seizing it.
From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all.
"Anakin, he was defended by Stass Allie and Shaak Ti. If two Masters could not prevent this, do you think you could? Stass Allie is clever and valiant, and Shaak Ti is the most cunning Jedi I've ever met. She's even taught me a few tricks."
Shaak Ti: Togruta Jedi Master and practitioner of both Makashi and Ataru lightsaber techniques. She was old and strong, and must have been wily indeed to have survived so long. Order 66 may have been issued many years ago, but it was still firmly in place all across the Empire.
So even if he retains a technical advantage, it won't make him her equal as a duelist.
Is Kas'im the greatest duelist who had ever lived up until his death, most likely not. It's still an impressive accolade that really shouldn't be casually dismissed.
Basically, I believe Kas'im can defend against her force abilities and overcome her in lightsaber combat.I did read your respect thread, and I can definitely understand your respect for Shaak Ti. I myself rate her among the higher half of the PT Council as of ROTS and she's actually one of my favorite PT era Jedi. I definitely think she could put up a great fight, but as my first post on this thread makes it clear I think Kas'im would win.
And I'd also like to state that I don't use Shaak Ti's supposedly low showings against Grievous against her, given the circumstances of her being tired from previous engagements, and I don't advocate the Shaak Ti was amped/Marek was hindered side of the Felucia Nexus controversy thing.
I believe that Shaak Ti is his superior as a duelist, even if her technical skill isn't as great as his. I don't think his mastery of forms will save him much against her. I also think her force advantage is being downplayed here.
But I'm glad to hear that. Likewise I'm not going to bring up the Lehon Nexus, since we haven't seen Kas'im without one, I don't think it's particularly fair.
Originally posted by Selenial
Perhaps. On the other hand, Shaak Ti blitzed numerous magnaguards, who should, by all accounts have far greater perceptions than Sith Apprentices.
Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation
Perceptions got nothing to do with a blitz. Plus if we're talking strict perception a Sith apprentice has precognition, which is greater than even lightspeed. Not that any of that is relevant. It's not like Shaak Ti actually surpassed near lightspeed reflexes.
Kas'im's Lehon amp precludes any serious look on him as a combatant.
The only thing certain is that he's that good with the amp. Without the amp he is lesser.
As demonstrated, Ti's feats already rival/exceed Kas'im's feats that he performed on a nexus. On a neutral ground as specified in the OP Shaak Ti is the clear winner.
The supposed amp is completely irrelevant because every person relevant to all his feats was a darksider. The apprentices watching Bane were Sith, Bane was a Sith and so was Kas'im.
Originally posted by Selenial
Post was entirely invalidated within the first sentence.New record Neph, grats 👆
A blitz is about speed. Perceiving something isn't the same as blocking it. Especially considering precognition. A Magnaguard might have near lightspeed reflexes but they can't move remotely that fast so it's irrelevant.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The supposed amp is completely irrelevant because every person relevant to all his feats was a darksider. The apprentices watching Bane were Sith, Bane was a Sith and so was Kas'im.
"supposed amp"? Are you denying that Lehon is a nexus?
Nexus amp is relevant because it grants the Force wielder more power than s/he would have got on a neutral ground.
Thus, amped performances of Kas'im cannot be properly juxtaposed with un-amped performances of Shaak Ti.
It's so simple I cannot believe I have to spell it out for you.
Originally posted by Nephthys
A blitz is about speed. Perceiving something isn't the same as blocking it. Especially considering precognition. A Magnaguard might have near lightspeed reflexes but they can't move remotely that fast so it's irrelevant.
It's a shame that they don't even move when she's attacking them then. If they at least tried to block it, this argument would stand. They didn't though, they perceive what she was doing fast enough.
And what in the flying **** does precognition have to do with this when we're talking about accolades ability to see something?
Originally posted by Selenial
It's a shame that they don't even move when she's attacking them then. If they at least tried to block it, this argument would stand. They didn't though, they perceive what she was doing fast enough.And what in the flying **** does precognition have to do with this when we're talking about accolades ability to see something?
Gosh, then I guess she must have been moving faster than the speed of light! What a valid argument! They didn't move because of the quality of the animation, we see her in several other instances very much not blitzing Magnaguards or moving so fast they can't react.
Nothing, which is why I said that all of it was irrelevant. Your comparison was invalid. Shaak Ti didn't move faster than the Magnaguards ability to percieve her like Bane did with the Sith, unless you want to seriously suggest she was moving faster than lightspeed at which point I'll just post as many laughing gifs as I can fit in a post.
