For Force Barriers and Tutaminis, I don't believe the Lehon feat is quite as impressive as you would have us believe. I respect it, but I don't think it's as incredible as you say. In Star Wars, there's two types of Force Attacks that are used in duels. One's a wide hitting, environmental destroying attack. The other is a targeted and precise attack. Bane's wave had enough of a kinetic force to shatter his bones and break his body, yes. But when you actually look at what Kas'im had to defend, really it was just that. A telekinetic push that would normally shatter one's bones and break one's body.
Technically, the text simply states that the attack was capable of that, not that it was capable of only that. We know that shattering his bones and breaking his body was within the realm of the attack's power; we have no idea how close it was to the upper limit of what the attack could do.
When you consider the sheer depth of the temple (based on TOR depictions) that the attack when through, defending any area of the attack is insanely impressive.
Originally posted by Selenial
Perhaps. On the other hand, Shaak Ti blitzed numerous magnaguards, who should, by all accounts have far greater perceptions than Sith Apprentices.
Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situationI can understand you saying Bane improved, but that doesn't actually mean he got faster.
Galen's got a similar feat by the way;
Then Starkiller was up and defending himself so quickly that Juno had hardly seen him move.And yet she was faster than Marek was during their duel.
(Quote Sel provided snipped due to post length)
So honestly, determining which is faster might be difficult. I do hold to the fact that Shaak Ti is, but I can see the argument for the other way. Either way, speed won't be a determining factor in this fight, as I'm sure you'll agree.
In any case, Juno Eclipse, a non-Force sensitive pilot, had difficulty seeing Marek move, while a room full of the greatest apprentices in the Brotherhood of Darkness, who were only days away from being Sith Lords by that point, couldn’t even see Bane’s movement. Bane’s feat strikes me as the more impressive of the two.
And I did notice that there’s a quote from the beginning of Bane and Kas’im’s fight that is very similar to the quote you provided as evidence for Shaak Ti being faster than Marek.
Kas'im sighed. "Then your life ends here." And be leapt in, his weapon moving with far more speed than he had ever shown during their practice sessions. Parrying the first sequence Bane realized his former Master had always been holding something in reserve . . . just as Bane himself had done in the early stages of his battle against Sirak. Only now was he seeing Kas'im's true ability, and he was barely able to defend himself. Barely, but still able.-POD
So if when looking at Shaak Ti and Kas’im’s similar application of speed against Bane and Marek, finding Bane’s speed feat more impressive than anything I’ve seen for Marek as of his fight with Shaak Ti, I’m inclined to believe Kas’im is the faster of the two, though I can see where you’re coming from as well. And I would probably agree with you that speed won’t be a particularly large factor in this fight.
Originally posted by Selenial
While yes, contending with Bane is impressive in regards to Strength, I'd disagree that it's enough to merit facing Ti's blows. Galen Marek's physicality itself rivals that of Bane, and should by all accounts have the same force augmentation. She did not just contend with his strength, she overpowered it:
"The force of it surprised him, and the recoil threw him backward."
Originally posted by Selenial
She also has the feat of crushing the head of a magnaguard, and holding off 9 of them at once in a bladelock, which is an immense display of strength:http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11123/111233150/4616421-4381269522-42146.gif
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11123/111233150/4616435-2365412214-m8ra7.gif
Originally posted by Selenial
He mastered all 7 forms, yes. That's more knowledge than Galen, yes. I think however the technical mastery of Lightsaber arts is being a tad overrated here. Instead of saying he mastered more forms, we need to look at how that's even an advantage here, because really it's not much of one. Shaak Ti mastered Makashi and Ataru, so her forms have no glaring weaknesses that he could exploit with another form (Like Kit Fisto being weak to Makashi, etc). She has encountered, and is proficient in, Jar'kai fencing, so he can't use that to secure an easy win. I struggle to believe he'd be superior, especially far superior, to one of the greatest Swordmasters alive.
"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."
I’ll also admit that Ataru and Makashi are two forms that go very well together. As the person who made the Interesting Fighting Styles thread, how certain forms play off of each other interests me. Forgive me if I go off topic for a moment. Ataru is sometimes known for being too energy consuming but generating a lot of kinetic energy, and Makashi is sometimes known for not generating enough kinetic energy but being conservative in its energy expenditure, and a master of both could tweak a balance between the two to suit the needs of the moment. Likewise, such a pairing works well on the offensive with aggressive fast paced sequences and precise maneuvers while also working on the defensive with Makashi’s focus on lightsaber to lightsaber combat and Ataru’s agility and acrobatics which could be used evasively. Plus the two forms mesh well due to the gracefulness inherent in both. I might just have to do a Shaak Ti Interesting Fighting Style post at some point
In any case, mastery and perfection of every move and sequence of all seven forms grants Kas’im a pretty good familiarity with the two forms Shaak Ti has mastered. It also provides him a great deal of versatility considering he can apply whichever of the seven forms best suits the circumstances he finds himself in at any given point, a versatility further afforded to him by him being armed with paired lightsabers, which could allow him to utilize a saberstaff or Jar’kai (or even fight with one blade if he feels like it).
It’s not what I would call a trump card, but it’s definitely something I believe to be a factor.
Originally posted by Selenial
Even if he is, Technical mastery doesn't mean anything unless he can back it up with Strength, Speed, Force Barriers, Force Attacks, Cunning, precognition and more. You are arguing he has better than her in the majority of the above, I don't believe he does. If he's outclassed in those areas, technical skill will not save him.
Though since technical skill isn’t everything, let’s take a look at practical application of dueling abilities in combat. Shaak Ti’s feat of fighting a dozen magna guards is no doubt incredibly impressive, and I personally view it as probably her best dueling feat given the skill of the magna guards and the sheer number of them she was facing.
Bane actually has a very similar feat, defeating an entire pack of 12 Tuk’ata with only his lightsaber skills.
"The second attack had been far bloodier. While exploring one of the most recent tombs he'd found himself surrounded by a dozen tuk'ata: a pack twice the size of the first. He'd unleashed his lightsaber on them, slicing through flesh and bone. When the pack finally broke and fled, only four of the twelve tuk'ata still lived.”-POD
Now before it’s called to question, I would like to establish this feat’s credibility.
In 23 BBY, a year before AOTC, a team of eight Jedi consisting of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ferus Olin, Siri Tachi, Soara Antana, Ry-Gaul, Darra Thel-Tanis, and Tru Veld were attacked by a pack of ten Tuk’ata. And these Jedi were rather impressive. Ferus and Anakin were the two most combatively skilled Padawans in the Jedi Order at the time. Obi-Wan even as a Padawan in 33 BBY was considered one of the best Jedi in the Order as a combatant and was comparable to Qui-Gon in speed as of TPM. Siri Tachi was a contemporary of Obi-Wan’s and was already one of the best duelists in the Jedi Temple as an eleven year old. Soara Antana was faster than Obi-Wan and Siri, the best lightsaber teacher among the Jedi as of 27 BBY (In an order that included Yoda, Windu, Drallig and Bulq), and she was regarded in the PT Jedi Order as a “legendary lightsaber virtuoso” in the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, as well as being regarded by her fellow Jedi as a “legend”, “fabled warrior”, “great Jedi fighter”, and “great Jedi Master.” Darra Thel-Tanis was the apprentice of Soara Antana (the greatest lightsaber teacher in the Order), and she was noted to have flawless teamwork with her master. Admittedly I don’t have much on Ry-Gaul and Tru Veld, though apparently Ry-Gaul’s fighting style was compared by Obi-Wan to Qui-Gon’s.
Now when a team such as this faced off against ten Tuk’ata, they were actually significantly challenged. Anakin got his right arm paralyzed in a 1v1 fight with one of the Tuk’ata, Obi-Wan had his hands full with one Tuk’ata at one point, Tru Veld and Ry-Gaul together were being driven back by two Tuk’ata, and Soara Antana and her Padawan working together with their flawless teamwork were occupied with two Tuk’ata for the duration of the fight before overwhelming them at the end. The Jedi prevailed in that confrontation, but it certainly was not without difficulty. It’s also worth noting that the Tuk’ata were showcased with lightning fast speed and the ability to continue fighting after multiple hard strikes from a lightsaber before a strike to the head neck or heart was made.
At one point while patrolling on Korriban, Yoda was unable to prevent the death of his Kybuck mount at the hands of the Tuk’ata, an event which left his heart heavy afterwards.
In FOTJ, Luke, Jaina, Vestara, Ben (I doubt I need to substantiate how impressive they are) encountered a pack of “more than a dozen” Tuk’ata. Ben believed this pack would be able to kill all four of them together in all-out combat. A confrontation never took place as Vestara ordered them to back down using the Sith language. Luke believed that had Vestara betrayed them and set the Tuk’ata upon them, they would’ve occupied Luke, Jaina, and Ben for at least a long enough time for Vestara to run back to their ship and escape with it. I definitely think Luke’s opinion on this matter holds a lot more weight than Ben’s, but it’s impressive for the Tuk’ata if they could’ve occupied Luke Ben and Jaina long enough for Vestara to escape without one of them being able to stop her.
With this in mind, Bane at the point in time at which he soloed a dozen Tuk’ata that had surrounded him beforehand considered the notion of taking Kas’im on in a real fight to be preposterous and admitted that he was no match for him. Also worth mentioning is that this is before Bane was even fully aware of the full extent of Kas’im’s capabilities with a saberstaff.
With Kas’im being a greater duelist than someone who attained a dueling feat that is at the bare minimum somewhat comparable to Shaak Ti’s magna-guard feat, I believe that Kas’im is indeed a greater duelist than Shaak Ti, not only in the technical aspects of lightsaber combat, but in practical application in an actual lightsaber duel as well.
Tuk'ata fight
“The vicious tuk'ata moved at lightning speed. They did not have an attack strategy. They didn't need one. They charged with flashing teeth and claws and whipping stingers.
Anakin jumped toward the lead tuk'ata. He wanted to be the first to bring one down. The beast whirled, its yellow eyes flat with menace. One massive claw swiped through the air. Anakin caught it with his lightsaber. The beast howled. He had only angered it.
He needed to hit a vulnerable spot. He saw Ferus and Siri attack a tuk'ata together, moving in rhythm. Perhaps he should have waited for his own Master, but with a quick look over his shoulder Anakin saw that Obi-Wan was occupied with two tuk'ata at once, while Ry-Gaul and Tru were racing to help.
The creature swiped at him again, and, anticipating the move, Anakin ducked and rolled, trying to strike up into the beast's chest, where he assumed a blow would kill it. To his surprise, the stinger landed on his arm. He had not expected that range of motion. Instantly, his arm was on fire, though the stinger had barely licked him. Anakin flipped his lightsaber to his other hand, cursing his luck.
The tuk'ata struck, no doubt following up on his advantage. While its prey was immobilized by the poison, the beast would finish him off. But Anakin was able to flip backward and strike, this time burying his lightsaber in the middle of the creature's head. He heard the sizzle and smelled the smoke. The yellow eyes rolled, and the creature fell dead.
Ry-Gaul and Tru had been outflanked by two tuk'ata. Obi-Wan had his hands full with one massive beast, bigger and fiercer than the rest. Anakin leaped on the back of the tuk'ata bearing down on his Master, hoping to distract it. The beast reared up, both stingers waving, while Anakin did a quick and elusive dance to avoid their sting.
Obi-Wan advanced, striking the tuk'ata with a series of hard blows. The creature staggered. Anakin was able to slash at the creature's neck before he was thrown off. The tuk'ata screamed, rearing, and Anakin and Obi Wan leaped out of its way. It toppled and thrashed and then was still.
They were already moving, turning to charge one of the tuk'ata who was after Tru. With a roar, it turned on them instead, circling and striking, trying to get claws and teeth embedded into Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan used his liquid cable launcher and anchored it on the creature's horn. Using the cable, he swung up and out, his lightsaber a blur of motion as he attacked again and again. The creature howled, trying to claw Obi-Wan away. Anakin was able to deliver the death blow in the chest.
Obi-Wan swung off the creature and landed, his boots thudding on the dirt. The cries of the tuk'ata mingled with the buzz of lightsabers as the Jedi met their attacks with moves and counter-moves. The tide of the battle was turning. Five tuk'ata lay dead, and two were mortally wounded. Anakin and Obi-Wan were able to team up with Ry-Gaul and Tru first alternately feinting to confuse the creature, and then slicing it into several pieces. Soara and Darra, working together in their usual flawless teamwork, had somehow kept two tuk'ata at bay. Wounded, the two counterattacked, but Darra and Soara were too fast, too agile, and too strong.”-Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown
Originally posted by Selenial
So if we look at those areas, I've addressed the first two already.For Force Barriers and Tutaminis, I don't believe the Lehon feat is quite as impressive as you would have us believe. I respect it, but I don't think it's as incredible as you say. In Star Wars, there's two types of Force Attacks that are used in duels. One's a wide hitting, environmental destroying attack. The other is a targeted and precise attack. Bane's wave had enough of a kinetic force to shatter his bones and break his body, yes. But when you actually look at what Kas'im had to defend, really it was just that. A telekinetic push that would normally shatter one's bones and break one's body.
Defending that, as a force user, isn't that impressive. Darth Maul has done the same to normal individuals:
"Then the rest opened fire at once. Maul leapt and jinked, spun and rolled, an acrobatic wonder, impossible to target. He stopped once to raise his hand and pepper his opponents with a flurry of Force-hurled glassware and sharp instruments. He turned blasters against each other and wrenched one fighter down onto a table with enough force to snap the man's spine."
Yet he could never do it to Kenobi, Jinn, or the other Jedi he's faced. It stands to reason that it's an easy attack to defend against. And really it should be. When you narrow down the scale and actually look at what Kas'im blocked, it's not as impressive. And it's not proof that he can resist what even Galen Marek could not.
And I do disagree with your belief that defending against such an attack isn’t that impressive. The feat you provided for Maul wasn’t the blunt force of his TK breaking one’s body, he picked the person up and snapped his spine by slamming him on a table. And it’s very understandable why he didn’t replicate that feat with other Force wielders, given that what he actually did was seize the person in a telekinetic grasp before moving them around, which I understand as being more difficult to do to another force wielder than pushing or throwing them back. In any case, breaking a man’s spine is a far cry from shattering every bone in a person’s body and literally liquidating their flesh.
In any case, waves with less power have actually broken telekinetic barriers. Savage Opress’s force wave on Dooku’s ship threw back Anakin and Obi-Wan, though some of the droids also caught in the wave were able to get back up afterwards, and on Oba Diah, Count Dooku’s force wave shoved Anakin and Obi-wan back a few feet, though the vast majority of the Pykes hit by the very same wave managed to get back on their feet seconds later with no sign of injury.
So no, I don’t view the feat of blocking a telekinetic blast with enough power to shatter every bone in a person’s body and literally liquidate their flesh to be not that impressive. On the contrary, given that notable force users have been overcome by telekinetic blasts of less power than that, I believe Kas’im’s force barrier showing to be pretty damn impressive all things considered.
Bane also didn’t defeat Kas’im with the Force short of collapsing an entire temple on top of him, and Bane as of 1000 BBY was the most powerful Dark Lord in centuries, and the power the Huntress felt within a poisoned POD Bane was greater than anything she had ever seen, and this was right after seeing a Sith Sorceress completely devastate Ambria with the Dark Side of the Force.
Also for consideration is the fact that Githany, who viewed Kaan as an embodiment of the Dark Side, laughed in Kaan’s face at the notion of anyone else in the Brotherhood of Darkness being able to surpass Kas’im’s combative performance against Bane.
Originally posted by Selenial
In terms of battlefield strategy and cunning, Shaak Ti should be able to manipulate Kas'im to her advantage. She was considered the most cunning Jedi alive, and was praised by Palpatine for her tactical ingenuity. She utilized it in combat against Starkiller as well, by predicting the advantage he would go for and seizing it.(snipped quotes Sel posted because my post was running long)
So even if he retains a technical advantage, it won't make him her equal as a duelist.
And given Kas’im is the primary lightsaber instructor in the Brotherhood of Darkness, he has by necessity developed talent in observing the intricacies, tendencies, flaws, and strengths in the techniques of others. With his aforementioned versatility resulting from his paired lightsabers and mastery of all seven forms, he also has more tools with which to adapt to Shaak Ti’s tactics and make use of tactics of his own.
Originally posted by Selenial
I believe that Shaak Ti is his superior as a duelist, even if her technical skill isn't as great as his. I don't think his mastery of forms will save him much against her. I also think her force advantage is being downplayed here.
I have to commend you Sel, I actually respect Shaak Ti more after reading and replying to your post, as well as after reading your respect thread, and I’m giving serious consideration to making a Shaak Ti Fighting Style Post. If you know of any sources other than OCW and TFU that showcase Shaak Ti’s fighting style, could you please give me a heads up?
In any case, Juno Eclipse, a non-Force sensitive pilot, had difficulty seeing Marek move, while a room full of the greatest apprentices in the Brotherhood of Darkness, who were only days away from being Sith Lords by that point, couldn’t even see Bane’s movement. Bane’s feat strikes me as the more impressive of the two.
Not to interject but your wrong here. Marek was capable of dodging canon fire from ATT walkers/concussion grenades simultaneously (without aid of a nexus):
The apprentice didn't break stride. He had timed his run perfectly, dodging the concussion grenades and energy bolts fired by the gunner and approaching from underneath, where the plating was weakest.
He was also capable of dodging omnidirectional blasterfire:
THE APPRENTICE PRESSED FORWARD THROUGH a hail of blasterfire, his progress hampered by the need to protect PROXY as well as himself. The droid was adept at dueling him, but was not programmed to fight Imperials. Blasterfire came from all directions as troopers by the dozens rushed forward to replace those he had already dealt with. Their determination to kill him seemed out of all proportion to their situation. Surely falling into the sun was more important than dispatching one escaped invalid.
Shaak Ti being faster than a guy who can see Rahm Kota in slow motion, dodge cannon fire/omindirectional blaster fire is easily a superior feat of speed than Bane moving faster than Sith apprentices who don't compare to Galen in speed to begin with. Not seeing how Kas'im is faster than Shaak in any sense at all
Originally posted by appletonia
Technically, the text simply states that the attack was capable of that, not that it was capable of only that. We know that shattering his bones and breaking his body was within the realm of the attack's power; we have no idea how close it was to the upper limit of what the attack could do.When you consider the sheer depth of the temple (based on TOR depictions) that the attack when through, defending any area of the attack is insanely impressive.
It really isn't that impressive considering the amount of darkside energy Bane was amped by when he used it lol. Vader with the wave of his hand could reduce massive insects with carapaces stronger than armor to blood mist, and Plagueis would partially disintegrate armored assassins without aid of a nexus. It really isn't that great of a feat
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Doesn't the book give the dimensions of the Rakatan temple?
No
Bane eyeballs the height
As with most people though, he's kind of ass at it anyway
The temple is more than 20 meters tall even in the original game it debut in.
EDIT - Yeah, the doorway far into the Foreground would need to be about a meter tall for Bane's measure to make any ****ing sense :lmao
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080604205953/starwars/images/f/fe/Unkwld_temple.jpg
