SSJ4 Gogeta vs SSJ God Vegetto

I think this is where the confusion is coming from. Goku was able to retain the SSJG power even after he lost the form due to time limit.

He retained some of it, yes.

As we can see he still fought evenly with Beerus even after he went back to base. Beerus even stated he didn't lose much power. That means Goku at base is now around SSJG level.

He contended with him briefly, which means his base is far and beyond what he was as a SSJ3 earlier in the movie, but he wasn't even his equal after going SSJ so how could he have been even with him at base?

I feel like everyone is forgetting that Goku went SSJ after SSJG timed out in BoG.

But Goku as a SSJG was. That's the point. So going from SSJG to SSJGSSJ is less than a 2x boost

I haven't argued otherwise. SSJGSSJ isn't an upgrade from SSJG; it's a completely different transformation... Which we know is about as powerful and more sustainable, but still separate.

Because it isn't now. After he became a SSJG he retained that power so he has it now even in base form. I think you are getting confused because you didn't realize Goku's base level increased so much

...Except even after he went SSJ he still wasn't as powerful as he was as SSJG, so your argument basically relies on SSJ Goku being ~Base Goku, which makes no sense. 😬

Also, I re-iterate:

Also, in RoF Goku is shocked at how massive of a boost Freiza's final transformation was, and outwardly admits his surprise. Now you're trying to tell me it was the lowest multiplier of all Frieza's transformations?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How do you figure Goku's base isn't much weaker than SSJG?

"As Goku struggles against Beerus' energy ball, Beerus tells Goku that Super Saiyan God's time limit ran out a long time ago. Goku apparently did not notice, because as he fought he absorbed that realm of power into his body. Due to this, even after returning to normal, Goku still did not power down very much."

-Source

The same statement was made by Beerus in the English dub as well. So again: SSJG is more powerful than base Goku, but the difference is marginal. If SSJG Goku is a 6.0, then base Goku is probably around a 5.0.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also, in RoF Goku is shocked at how massive of a boost Freiza's final transformation was, and outwardly admits his surprise. Now you're trying to tell me it was the lowest multiplier of all Frieza's transformations?

That said, 4th form Freeza would have undoubtedly been far more powerful than anyone we have ever seen in Z(aside from Beerus/Whis), by a huge margin.

So yeah, doubling/tripling power of that magnitude IS a massive increase.

Galan's right.

But the way I see it, SSJGSSJ isn't really a SSJ boost to SSJG(which it obviously isn't, as it's a 2X or less boost to SSJG), but it's just a godly ki version of SSJ to Goku's new godly ki base form.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Goku lost the ability to go regular SSJ1, 2, or 3, although it would suck. But it seems like his regular SSJ forms don't affect his godly ki, and he's going to need new SSJ forms to boost his godly ki, now that he uses godly ki in his base form. The same goes for Vegeta.

I think SSJG was basically just channeling godly ki into Goku's base form, which let him retain that strength.

If that's the case though, then I don't get how the evil Saiyan's managed to take out the SSJG once it turned back, since it shouldn't have lost much power, like Goku. Toriyama's really doing a bad job though, these days, imo.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

I haven't argued otherwise. SSJGSSJ isn't an upgrade from SSJG; it's a completely different transformation... Which we know is about as powerful and more sustainable, but still separate.

The thing that makes me feel like SSG and SSGSSJ are different forms is the face that goku had a complete body change in SSG mode. What ever happened to that?

Idk I could be completely wrong ha

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
But the way I see it, SSJGSSJ isn't really a SSJ boost to SSJG(which it obviously isn't, as it's a 2X or less boost to SSJG), but it's just a godly ki version of SSJ to Goku's new godly ki base form.

👆

I think SSJG was basically just channeling godly ki into Goku's base form, which let him retain that strength.

👆 Some of it, anyway.

If that's the case though, then I don't get how the evil Saiyan's managed to take out the SSJG once it turned back, since it shouldn't have lost much power, like Goku. Toriyama's really doing a bad job though, these days, imo.

Not even sure what you're trying to say here, tbh.

I have a hunch SSJG is stronger than SSJGSSJ

Akira Toriyama said something similar; something to note though is that SSJGSSJ is far more efficient, and Goku's a good bit stronger as of RoF anyway.

So summing it up, SSJGSSJ RoF Goku > SSJG BoG Goku, even if the transformation itself isn't stronger.

Originally posted by Galan007
In all likelihood, FIRST FORM Freeza was already in the upper-echelon of ki that the Z-Fighters had ever sensed, judging by their utterly awestruck/dumbfounded reactions to his power. Hell, Gohan outright stated that there was "no way" he could defeat FIRST FORM Freeza:

Doesn't this prove my point even more, then? I mean, 100% 4th form Frieza is like 300x more powerful than he is in 1st form; even if his 5th form is only a 3x boost--and I still suspect it's more going by context--that's still approaching 1,000x stronger than a Frieza that Gohan can't even compete with.

And then you have SSJGSSJ Goku and Vegeta, who are just insane in power, fusing into a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Gogeta--which would supposedly multiply their power dozens of times--and it's still not reasonable to assert they could compete with a SSJ4?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

If that's the case though, then I don't get how the evil Saiyan's managed to take out the SSJG once it turned back, since it shouldn't have lost much power, like Goku. Toriyama's really doing a bad job though, these days, imo.

Ha, that stood out for me, too. If the original SSJ God was the same as Goku (And he should be, since Goku used the same method to achieve it), then then him becoming weak enough for any other Saiyan to beat is a plot hole.

Goku was the third strongest being in the universe in BoG even after SSJG burnt out, but we're supposed to believe the original SSJG became weak as a kitten when he reverted to base?

Didn't Beerus consider him specifically impressive for retaining that strength though?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Doesn't this prove my point even more, then? I mean, 100% 4th form Frieza is like 300x more powerful than he is in 1st form; even if his 5th form is only a 3x boost--and I still suspect it's more going by context--that's still approaching 1,000x stronger than a Frieza that Gohan can't even compete with.

That said, Freeza's Golden form would have 'only' tripled his power at the absolute most. 226*3=678x.

As you can see, even Freeza's Golden form was less than 700x> his 1st form.

So unless you think 1st form Freeza was 3,300x> SSJ3 Goku(which is lulz-worthy), then his Golden form wouldn't be remotely close to SSJ4-level. Same with BSSJG Goku/Vegeta.

Originally posted by cdtm
Ha, that stood out for me, too. If the original SSJ God was the same as Goku (And he should be, since Goku used the same method to achieve it), then then him becoming weak enough for any other Saiyan to beat is a plot hole.

Goku was the third strongest being in the universe in BoG even after SSJG burnt out, but we're supposed to believe the original SSJG became weak as a kitten when he reverted to base?

"As Goku struggles against Beerus' energy ball, Beerus tells Goku that Super Saiyan God's time limit ran out a long time ago. Goku apparently did not notice, because as he fought he absorbed that realm of power into his body. Due to this, even after returning to normal, Goku still did not power down very much. Beerus says that Goku is really something, a rare genius."

-Source

Beerus states the same thing about Goku in the English dub...
Beerus: "I didn't think it was possible. You're a true prodigy, like few I've ever seen."

Furthermore, SSJG was never intended to be a permanent amp at all. Much like fusion, SSJG was only supposed to last a very short duration before it timed out, and Goku reverted back down to his normal level. Shenron clearly stated this during his exposition speech...
Shenron: "The [Super Saiyan God] easily defeated the evil Saiyans with his immense power... But he then vanished as quickly as he came, as the energy the Saiyans had offered him could not last for long."
(ie. the original SSJG didn't retain said power.)

So yeah, permanently merging with the Godly ki certainly isn't something that any random Saiyan could have done. Goku and Vegeta are very special/rare cases.

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku was only able to absorb the Godly ki into his person because he is such a genius warrior. In fact, even Beerus himself was amazed that he was able to do so:

Beerus states the same thing about Goku in the English dub...
Beerus: "I didn't think it was possible. You're a true prodigy, like few I've ever seen."

Furthermore, SSJG was never intended to be a permanent amp at all. Much like fusion, SSJG was only supposed to last a very short duration before it timed out, and Goku reverted back down to his normal level. Shenron clearly stated this during his exposition speech...
Shenron: "The [Super Saiyan God] easily defeated the evil Saiyans with his immense power... But he then vanished as quickly as he came, as the energy the Saiyans had offered him could not last for long."
(ie. the original SSJG didn't retain said power.)

So yeah, permanently merging with the Godly ki certainly isn't something that any random Saiyan could have done. Goku and Vegeta are very special/rare cases.

Goku's not really that good of a warrior, at least compared to most of the other Saiyan's we've seen. He's only ever beaten someone by simply overpowering them. Whiss even said that his fighting technique was poor compared to him and Bills. And he said that Vegeta's technique was very good, but that he hesitated with his movements too much.

He just happens to be very good at imitating attacks after he's seen them, or at least understanding them, and developing counters to them. Which is why he copied the kamehameha after seeing it once in DB. He even called it the "monkey-see, monkey-do technique", in Dragon Ball, iirc.

Anyway, Goku absorbed nearly as much godly ki into his base form as he had in his SSJG form, which is why he didn't lose hardly any power, according to Bills. It just seems really weird to me that another Saiyan couldn't AT LEAST absorb like half of his SSJG ki into his base form, ya know? Even just a bit of godly ki would put him FAR above any other Saiyan, even great apes.

Originally posted by Galan007
Assuming the multipliers for Freeza are still the same, then his 4th form is [b]226x> his 1st form.
-1st form Freeza=530k.
-4th form Freeza(100%)=120m.
-530k/120m=226

That said, Freeza's Golden form would have 'only' tripled his power at the absolute most. 226*3=678x.

As you can see, even Freeza's Golden form was less than 700x> his 1st form.

So unless you think 1st form Freeza was 3,300x> SSJ3 Goku(which is lulz-worthy), then his Golden form wouldn't be remotely close to SSJ4-level. Same with BSSJG Goku/Vegeta. [/B]

Yeah, it was pretty crazy that First form Frieza was so superior to SSJ Gohan, and Super Piccolo, but those are both only weak SSJ1 tier characters. Piccolo being even weaker than Gohan. So a SSJ2 tier could probably beat First form Frieza. And Frieza's fourth form is only a 226 boost to his base form. So that would be 226 times greater than a SSJ2. And base GT Goku was superior FAR AND AWAY to SSJ3 Goku from DBZ. Meaning that if he, in base, was 5 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, which is very likely, given that he casually toyed with Rildo who was "stronger than Majin Buu", then Goku in SSJ1 would be around 250 times stronger than SSJ3 DBZ Goku. Which means he would be far and away stronger than Final Form Frieza, in ROF. Which ALSO means that SSJ2 GT Goku would probably beat Golden Frieza, and SSJ3 Goku would ROFL-stomp him.

So it really supports what I've been saying for a long time. SSJ3 GT Goku would DEFINITELY rofl-stomp the entire DBZ-verse, Bills and Whiss included.

Which still puts SSJ4 so far out of the range of any point in DBZ that it doesn't see it beyond the event horizon.

Having said that, to answer this thread, SSJ4 Gogeta still bolostomps SSJG Vegitto, because, even while the Potara fusion is superior strength wise and it eliminates the time limit Gogeta has, the strength modifiers Gogeta has because of SSJ4 puts him over the top.

It's impossible to place Godku, Beerus and Whis in a GT power-chain, because we don't know how big the boost provided by SSG is.
Personally, I wouldn't say that someone claiming SSGSS Vegetto would win is wrong, but I wouldn't say that someone going with Gogeta is wrong either.
Ssj4 Gogeta is stated to be "only" few tens of times stronger than Ssj4 Vegeta/Goku, while the boost Potara gave to Vegetto was enough to put Ssj Goku/Vegeta from being around PC level at most, to being able to curbstomp Boohan without using arms: Potara boost at Vegetto >>>>>> GT Ssj4 Gogeta fusion boost.
Now, if you apply the same boost to someone (SSGSS Goku/Vegeta) who is arguably already a GT tier character, I can easily see SSGSS Vegetto being able to ignite Ssj4 Gogeta to flames just by clapping his hands.
However, GT power increases during the series is ridicolous, since in Super17 saga Ssj Goku is proven to be > Ssj4 Goku at the Baby saga, and this goes on and on, with Ssj4 Goku at the Dragons being stronger than Ssj4 Goku in the S17 display; then, Ssj4 Goku surpasses his limits and becomes at least 10 times stronger, while Ssj4 Vegeta is equal to surpassed limits Ssj4 Goku. Then, again, they fuse and Ssj4 Gogeta is a few tens of times stronger even than that, so, while his fusion boost is insignificant compared to what Vegetto would obtain, his GT backup power-increase story is really massive.
In simple words: do you believe that SSGSS + gianormous Potara boosts can overcome all of this? If yes, Vegetto stomps, otherwise Gogeta wins.
Personally, I'd tend to be in favour of the first option.

As you can see, even Freeza's Golden form was less than 700x> his 1st form.

I was estimating. 👆

So unless you think 1st form Freeza was 3,300x> SSJ3 Goku(which is lulz-worthy),

Woah woah woah, hold on there.

3,300x678=2,237,400

You said that SSJ4 Goku was 4,000x Z SSJ3 Goku, not 2 million times. Please stay consistent with me here lol.

then his Golden form wouldn't be remotely close to SSJ4-level. Same with BSSJG Goku/Vegeta.

This is true. Which is why I said hypothetical SSJGSSJ Gogeta, who would be "perhaps dozens of times stronger" than any of the above. 👆 👆 👆

Which, by the calculations you're throwing at me, may actually put him above a n00b SSJ4. He'd still lose to SSJ4 Gogeta or Omega Shenron, though...

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yeah, it was pretty crazy that First form Frieza was so superior to SSJ Gohan, and Super Piccolo, but those are both only weak SSJ1 tier characters.

I hear that Mystic Gohan during the Buu saga was supposed to be the strongest un-fused character in the series according to Toriyama though???

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Woah woah woah, hold on there.

3,300x678=2,237,400

You said that SSJ4 Goku was 4,000x Z SSJ3 Goku, not 2 million times. Please stay consistent with me here lol.

Hell, even if there was a 1,000x difference between SSJ3 and SSJG(which would be a retarded/lulz-worthy assumption), it is still utterly inconsequential when compared to the 4,000x difference that exists between SSJ3 Z Goku and SSJ4 Goku.

GT levels are retarded as hell, but they are what they are. The sooner people accept this, the better. 👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
So it really supports what I've been saying for a long time. SSJ3 GT Goku would DEFINITELY rofl-stomp the entire DBZ-verse, Bills and Whiss included.

SSJ3 GT Goku would have been at least 400x> SSJ3 Z Goku, after all. That should definitely be enough to put him comfortably beyond anything we've seen in Z so far, imo.

Remember: in the later days of Z, 2x increases in power were considered massive. 4x increases were considered ungodly gargantuan. Hell, even the difference between Nail and 1st form Freeza was 'only' 12.6x, and we saw how that went.

...Again, we're dealing with a 400x increase here, lol.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I hear that Mystic Gohan during the Buu saga was supposed to be the strongest un-fused character in the series according to Toriyama though???

Math isn't your strong suit, eh?

Odd, I'm starting to feel like it isn't yours. You... do realize there's a difference between addition and multiplication right? You seem like a fairly intelligent fellow, so I'm guessing there must be some kind of miscommunication somewhere along the line here. I'm going to try and spell this out in the most deliberate fashion possible:

Hell, even if there was a 1,000x difference between SSJ3 and SSJG(which would be a retarded/lulz-worthy assumption), it is still utterly inconsequential when compared to the 4,000x difference that exists between SSJ3 Z Goku and SSJ4 Goku.

4000x SSJ3 Goku (In this case SSJ4 Goku) would be four times stronger than 1000x SSJ Goku (In this case SSJGSSJ Goku). Not thousands of times like you literally just claimed. Again, multiplication not addition.

Gogeta and Vegitto are dozens of times stronger than Goku is. By the same token, hypothetical SSJGSSJ Gogeta and Vegitto would be dozens of times stronger than SSJGSSJ Goku is.

Dozens of times is a hell of a lot more than four times. Not thousands of times less.

Obviously SSJGSSJ=1000x SSJ3 is a random and not necessarily accurate number you've chosen to make a point, but by that chosen number SSJ4 Goku would get murderstomped. Taking up a more humble number, it's more debatable.

Remember: in the later days of Z, 2x increases in power were considered massive. 4x increases were considered ungodly gargantuan. Hell, even the difference between Nail and 1st form Freeza was 'only' 12.6x, and we saw how that went.

...Again, we're dealing with a 400x increase here, lol.

Didn't we just agree that we may be talking about multi-100x increase with Freiza, and by extension Goku?

And then switching gears to a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Vegitto, who according to that quote would be dozens of times stronger than even that? (Anywhere between 24 and 100x???)