SSJ4 Gogeta vs SSJ God Vegetto

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Odd, I'm starting to feel like it isn't yours. You... do realize there's a difference between addition and multiplication right? You seem like a fairly intelligent fellow, so I'm guessing there must be some kind of miscommunication somewhere along the line here. I'm going to try and spell this out in the most deliberate fashion possible:

4000x SSJ3 Goku (In this case SSJ4 Goku) would be four times stronger than 1000x SSJ Goku (In this case SSJGSSJ Goku). Not thousands of times like you literally just claimed. Again, multiplication not addition.

Gogeta and Vegitto are dozens of times stronger than Goku is. By the same token, hypothetical SSJGSSJ Gogeta and Vegitto would be dozens of times stronger than SSJGSSJ Goku is.

Dozens of times is a hell of a lot more than four times. Not thousands of times less.

Obviously SSJGSSJ=1000x SSJ3 is a random and not necessarily accurate number you've chosen to make a point, but by that chosen number SSJ4 Goku would get murderstomped. Taking up a more humble number, it's more debatable.

Also, "dozens of times" is just some random opinion you pulled out of your ass--one that cannot be substantiated by anything concrete. In all likelihood, there might be a difference of 'a' dozen times between SSJ3 and SSJG, at max.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Didn't we just agree that we may be talking about multi-100x increase with Freiza, and by extension Goku?

And then switching gears to a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Vegitto, who according to that quote would be dozens of times stronger than even that? (Anywhere between 24 and 100x???)

Originally posted by Galan007
Also, "dozens of times" is just some random opinion you pulled out of your ass--one that cannot be substantiated by anything concrete. In all likelihood, there might be a difference of 'a' dozen times between SSJ3 and SSJG, at max.

At this point I feel like you're either trolling or not reading.

Dozens of times refers to the difference between Goku and Gogeta, regardless of SSJG or anything else. And that's not a random number, it's from the GT Perfect Files lol.

Again, I repeat: I am not discussing SSJGSSJ Goku vs SSJ4 Goku. I am discussing a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Gogeta vs SSJ4 Goku.

SSJ3 GT Goku was at least 400x> SSJ3 Z Goku. Good luck proving anything else in Z is THAT far beyond SSJ3.

Again, it doesn't need to be. 👆

Because the difference between Goku and Gogeta is far and beyond the difference between SSJ3 and SSJ4 (Dozens of times VS Ten times)

So really, SSJGSSJ doesn't necessarily need to be much more than 100x in the first place; even though it probably is judging from Freiza's transformations. 👆

GT Perfect Files is your reference, eh? The same source that states SSJ2 wasn't used again after the Cell saga(among a few other glaring inconsistencies)..?

Lol, we're done here. If you come up with something reputable, let me know. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
-Snip-

Frankly the source is unecessary in understanding the concept; Gogeta and Vegitto in SSJ1 have demonstrated the ability to stomp (to varying degrees) characters that SSJ3 Goku couldn't match in Janemba/Super Buu (Gohan).

SSJ3 is 8x stronger than SSJ1, and SSJ3 Goku still demonstrably would get stomped by SSJ1 Vegitto or Gogeta. The concept of Gogeta/Vegitto fusion multipliers being "dozen(s)" is hardly an unreasonable assertion.

Even if the multiplier for the fusion was only a dozen times, which I personally don't quite buy, that's still 3x more than a 4x boost.

In other words, (Super) SSJGSSJ Goku would need to be roughly 300x stronger than (Z) SSJ3 Goku for SSJGSSJ Vegitto to be in SSJ4 Goku's ballpark assuming the minimum multiplier for Vegitto/Gogeta transformation.

Is he, necessarily? No. Is that a feasible number? Possibly, considering:

Base RoF Goku = RoF 4th Form Freiza = (200x)RoF 1st Form Frieza >> SSJ Gohan

Then with both Goku and Freiza powering up to SSJGSSJ and Golden forms respectively, I'd say them being in the ballpark of 300x could legitimately be debated for. 👆

I think you fail to understand that a difference of 'dozens' of times(or even 'a' dozen) doesn't need to exist between characters for the fights to still be laughably one-sided.

Examples:
Vegeta vs. Kiwi
Vegeta vs. Dodoria
Goku vs. Recoome/Burter/Jeice
50% Freeza vs. SSJ Goku
Perfect Cell vs. ASSJ Vegeta
Perfect Cell vs. SSJ2 Gohan
Fat Buu vs. SSJ2 Gohan
Super Buu vs. Shin Gohan
Buutenks vs. Shin Gohan
Pure Buu vs. SSJ2 Vegeta
etc. etc.

In each of those examples, no more than a 2-3x difference in power exists, yet they were all completely one-sided shit-stomps. Hell, even Whis is less than 2x Beerus, yet can still KO him with one casual chop.

Point: technically Gogeta could have 'only' been 2x> Janemba, and still owned him just as effortlessly... As an example.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think you fail to understand that a difference of 'dozens' of times(or even 'a' dozen) doesn't need to exist between characters for the fights to still be laughably one-sided.

In each of those examples, no more than a 2-3x difference in power exists, yet they were all completely one-sided shit-stomps

Point: technically Gogeta could have 'only' been 2x> Janemba, and still owned him just as effortlessly... As an example.

Oh, I agree. I'm certainly not saying SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto is dozens of times (or even 'a' dozen times) stronger than Janemba, or Super Buu (Gohan), or even SSJ3 Goku.

Let's use your example of 2-3x for them, just for the purposes of the argument. That's SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto being compared to opponents who were beating up SSJ3 Goku.

In this hypothetical case, Gogeta/Vegitto would be in the same Saiyan form as Goku.

SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto is only 2-3x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but if the playing field is leveled (If Gogeta/Vegitto goes SSJ3, or Goku reverts to SSJ1) then the gap becomes eight times larger. Instead of 2-3x we'd be dealing with 16-24x.

Do you get what I'm saying? Since we're comparing SSJGSSJ Vegitto to SSJGSSJ Goku rather than SSJ1 Vegitto to SSJ3 Goku?

So if Goku was a 10, his SSJ1 would be a 500, and his SSJ3 would be 4000
If Vegitto as a SSJ1 was a 8000-12000(By your 2-3x principle), then his base would be 160-240.

I.E dozen(s) of times higher than Goku's.

In more simple terms, since the post above is a little cluttered:

Base Goku = 10
SSJ3 Goku = 400x Base Goku (4000)
SSJ1 Vegitto = 2-3x SSJ3 Goku (8000-12000)
Base Vegitto = SSJ1 Vegitto/50 (160-240)

Base Vegitto : Base Goku = 16-24 : 1

These obviously aren't exact numbers, just an example to get the concept across.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Oh, I agree. I'm certainly not saying SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto is dozens of times (or even 'a' dozen times) stronger than Janemba, or Super Buu (Gohan), or even SSJ3 Goku.

Let's use your example of 2-3x for them, just for the purposes of the argument. That's [b]SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto being compared to opponents who were beating up SSJ3 Goku.

In this hypothetical case, Gogeta/Vegitto would be in the same Saiyan form as Goku.

SSJ1 Gogeta/Vegitto is only 2-3x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but if the playing field is leveled (If Gogeta/Vegitto goes SSJ3, or Goku reverts to SSJ1) then the gap becomes eight times larger. Instead of 2-3x we'd be dealing with 16-24x.[/B]

However, it's hard/impossible to come up with any legitimate means through which to accurately quantify the difference between SSJ3 and SSJG... Which is ultimately what we'd need in order to approximate the theoretical level of a theoretical SSJG Vegetto.
All we know for certain is:
Whis>>Beerus>>SSJG~/>base Goku>>SSJ3.

We also know, based on the "15, 10, 6" scale Toriyama provided, that Whis is 'only' ~33%> Beerus, and Beerus is 'only' ~40%> SSJG/base Goku... And we saw how a battle between all of them went(Beerus utterly dominated Goku, and Whis KO'd Beerus with a casual chop.)

That said, I believe the difference between SSJ3 and SSJG, while still massive, is probably a lot less than most think. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Okay, that makes a bit more sense. If that's what you've been trying to say all along, then apologies, but I legitimately didn't understand your point.

👆 I had a feeling there was a misunderstanding somewhere along the line.

However, it's hard/impossible to come up with any legitimate means through which to accurately quantify the difference between SSJ3 and SSJG..

That said, I believe the difference between SSJ3 and SSJG is a lot less than most think. /shrug

Well, I mean... BoG Base Goku was trading blows with 70% Beerus, and after training with Whis I'd imagine he's a good bit stronger than he was there.

Beerus at the start of the fight with SSJG Goku was going at roughly 50% (Judging from them being evenly matched, and SSJG Goku saying he was going at 80%), and it seemed to me that he was using even less of his power against Goku and the Z-fighters earlier on, despite lolstomping them all.

I wouldn't be surprised if Base RoF Goku could do this to SSJ3 Goku: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OM9AuQwMMvU

Also, I re-iterate that the Frieza example could lead us to some pretty high-end conclusions.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, I mean... BoG Base Goku was trading blows with 70% Beerus, and after training with Whis I'd imagine he's a good bit stronger than he was there.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also, I re-iterate that the Frieza example could lead us to some pretty high-end conclusions.

But IF the difference between his forms stayed the same, then Freeza's Golden form was no more than 3x his 4th form(or 678x his 1st form)--and that is almost certainly a huge overestimation. In all likelihood, his Golden form was only about 2x his 4th form(or ~450x his 1st form.)

Something else to consider is that Golden Freeza was actually more powerful than BSSJG Goku when he was at max power... So even using the hyper-inflated figures above, a theoretical SSJG Vegetto would have to be a minimum of 6-8x> Golden Freeza(which would put him several times above the likes of Beerus and Whis) to even have a shot at contending with SSJ4 Goku.

Is it possible? Anything is possible, I guess. Do I have my doubts? Absolutely.

In case some people forgot, Goku in the Super 17 Saga is much stronger than he was in the Baby Saga. Super Saiyan Goku punched S17 in the gut and sent him flying hundreds of miles away. By contrast, Uub's kick to S17's back didn't even budge him. Uub previously forced Super Baby 2 to get serious during their beam struggle while Goku in that arc couldn't beat Baby Vegeta's weakest form in Super Saiyan 3.

Goku lampshades this by saying Saiyans get stronger the more they fight, which is a concept that existed in the original manga and Toriyama recently brought it up again, saying the only way Goku and Vegeta can get significant power-boosts now is by fighting strong opponents. GT just made the gains completely ridiculous.

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku did become a little stronger between BoG and RoF, but he was still weaker than Beerus... That's why Whis said that it would take BSSJG Goku+BSSJG Vegeta to match Beerus.

That still may be going from 60% - >80%, though, which is kinda significant when you have these ultra-high level fighters.

I suppose it could, IF we assume the difference between Freeza's forms stayed the same...

Indeed, that is why this is speculation. 👆

Something else to consider is that Golden Freeza was actually more powerful than BSSJG Goku when he was at max power... So even using the hyper-inflated figures above, a theoretical SSJG Vegetto would have to be a minimum of 6-8x> Golden Freeza(which would put him several times above the likes of Beerus and Whis) to even have a shot at contending with SSJ4 Goku.

Indeed, but a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Vegetto should be beyond the likes of Beerus and Whis in the same way that SSJ4 Gogeta is beyond the likes of Omega Shenron, right?

And yeah, these numbers may be stretched some, but the point I'm trying to get at is that there's a feasible argument to be made here. Or at least, there may be when Super gets going...

Originally posted by Crimson Dragoon
In case some people forgot, Goku in the Super 17 Saga is much stronger than he was in the Baby Saga. Super Saiyan Goku punched S17 in the gut and sent him flying hundreds of miles away. By contrast, Uub's kick to S17's back didn't even budge him. Uub previously forced Super Baby 2 to get serious during their beam struggle while Goku in that arc couldn't beat Baby Vegeta's weakest form in Super Saiyan 3.

Goku lampshades this by saying Saiyans get stronger the more they fight, which is a concept that existed in the original manga and Toriyama recently brought it up again, saying the only way Goku and Vegeta can get significant power-boosts now is by fighting strong opponents. GT just made the gains completely ridiculous.

I haven't yet found a reason to start factoring that in, though. 😛

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That still may be going from 60% - >80%, though, which is kinda significant when you have these ultra-high level fighters.

Especially when we consider that in BoG, SSJG Goku never even used his full power before reverting back to his base level--the most he used was 80%.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Indeed, but a hypothetical SSJGSSJ Vegetto should be beyond the likes of Beerus and Whis in the same way that SSJ4 Gogeta is beyond the likes of Omega Shenron, right?

It's really all a matter of personal opinion.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And yeah, these numbers may be stretched some, but the point I'm trying to get at is that there's a feasible argument to be made here. Or at least, there may be when Super gets going...

I guess my point is that, while Goku became more powerful between BoG and RoF, we still know that whatever increase he gained was ultimately <40%... So it's not like he's become vastly more powerful. The difference was likely quite marginal.

Ah, yeah.

It really depends how significant of a difference you think there was between Vegetto and Boohan, as that would help you estimate the difference between Vegetto and SSJ3. But again: I don't think the difference was nearly as high as I've seen some claim. /shrug

There's also the Gogeta/Janemba comparison which is easier, though I guess that's not canon.

If you high-ball the estimates, then yeah, there's an argument to be made that a theoretical SSJG Vegetto can contend with n00b SSJ4 Goku. As was mentioned above, though: peak SSJ4 is an entirely different animal.

Then we are agreed.

Vegeta must have been about early Goku SSJ4 level, I'm thinking. If not less.

Didn't last long at all against Nuova, and Vegeta claimed he wasn't even trying.

I kind of like that Vegeta needed the blutze wave generator to transform every time, though. Unlike how RoF has him going SSJ God at will just like Goku. Made Goku's SSJ4 unique. (And people say Vegeta didn't earn his SSJ4 because of it, but Toriyama once said something about Saiyans bodies rejecting their tails when they reach a certain age, so really Goku's the artifical SSJ4 here thanks to that youth wish..)

Originally posted by cdtm
Vegeta must have been about early Goku SSJ4 level, I'm thinking. If not less.

Didn't last long at all against Nuova, and Vegeta claimed he wasn't even trying.

The thing is Vegeta still had to have some rough parity with limits surpassed SSJ4 Goku to be able to fuse with him, and there's nothing indicating Goku lowered his power-level drastically to match his.

There's also the fact that Nuova's hits didn't really hurt Vegeta and Nuova's specialized in speed. Plus he was being beaten up by Omega beforehand and Trunks mentioned fusion took up a great deal of their ki.

Vegito stomps......

welp sine kibito kai is nomore gt officially is nonexistent therefore gogeta sssj4 no longer is a factor.... vegeto wins

That's terrible logic. SSJG Vegito doesn't exist either.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's terrible logic. SSJG Vegito doesn't exist either.

oooh wow i never knew that (sarcasm)