Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Which is why I'm likely going to limit my responses to you alone in this thread. Don't need any distractions or hard feelings, and you, virtually alone of the Superman fans I've interacted with here over the years, I feel I can trust to be civil. I'm also certain I can trust you to present anything that needs presenting for response for useful conversation.
I'll take that both as Diana has nothing that a Mid-Tier on their best day couldn't do solo, and you simply don't want to concede your error on Ultraman.
Outside of arguing lip service Kara got during Loeb's storyline, which ended with Superman holds back, Kara has no restraint(something you don't want to accept), you have almost nothing to argue your stance on Supergirl>Superman from debut until Gates took over.
Your biggest argument was "she's beaten every Superman analogue she's faced." If I'm forgetting any, I apologize, but I remember you bringing up Ultraman, Power Boy and Mon-El.
Ultraman as pointed-out, to my knowledge, only appeared in that storyline. So his only feats were losing to Supergirl. Twice. Both instances Supergirl had some help from Power Girl(although Karen was weakened).
Power Boy? Read every appearance of him I could find. In the fight Supergirl won, through-out most of it Power Boy was NOT fighting back. He kept saying things like "don't make me hurt you" while, well, not retaliating. And he didn't have his aura up, like he did the time he beat Supergirl before, until the end when he teleported away and decided to fight back. Supergirl won by.....literally giving a flying knee to the groin. What's that supposed to prove against someone whose best feat is beating Supergirl prior to that(starting the fight off with a sucker punch)? His only other feat worth note is generally looking better than C-List Titans, except Hawk. Who actually came off as stronger than him.
Mon-El? Well, her "win" over him was fighting until she could restrain him while Brainy made a lead antidote and one of the LSHers threw it in his mouth. And his best feat is giving her a Hell of a fight despite him dying of lead poisoning. Oh yeah, that's something you failed to mention.
You left out this very important context. And, brought up her technically winning by restraining him long enough for the antidote to be popped in his mouth. Makes me wonder if you actually read the comic. Which is taking the point Rao made this for the the nth degree.
But to the normal degree of the point of this topic, let's take the armored Luthor comparisons under Loeb. You argue Kara was effected more by Kryptonite than Superman. I've read both storylines and can tell you this is absolutely false. One argument you made was the Kryptonite cuffs, which were adjustable and Kara set them very low so she could look impressive breaking out of them. I doubt they had much effect, and the time frame of her in direct sunlight after that and before fighting Luthor should offset whatever effect it might have had.
Your other argument is she was "exposed to two types of Kryptonite." The burden of proof lies on you to prove that black Kryptonite had weakened her, instead of merely split off her "dark half." Even if you could somehow prove it did, it only applies to Dark Kara. Not Supergirl's fight with Luthor, where she got owned. Considering how Dark Kara performed against Luthor, and how Supergirl performed against Dark Kara, it's highly unlikely the black Kryptonite weakened her.
Superman, on the other hand, had been effected to at least some degree of Kryptonite starting in #2. And the Kryptonite increased as it got closer. During this time, he fought what by all accounts indicate was the Pre-CRISIS Earth-One Superman. Who was trying to kill him. Then he fought a number of villains(which included Nightshade, whose energy showed capable of draining Superman's energy), a number of heroes, had more time elapse, and then fought Captain Marvel. Then fought him again off-panel(dialogue indicated a sneak attack) and had even more time elapse.
Then, we see he's having a hard time holding it together, Toyman noticing he's not feeling well, then Captain Atom comes in and blasts Supes with an energy blast channeled through the Kryptonite ring. And he was out. A bit more time elapsed. Then he fought Luthor. Who was blasting him with what seemed to be Kryptonite energy. Also, he had a force field, something he didn't show against Supergirl/Dark Kara.
And I'm not factoring in before this started, about Superman being shot with a Kryptonite bullet, since it's hard to determine if it had any effect by the time PC Superman came in, being under a sunlamp after it was removed. Your argument is Supergirl beat Luthor better, but A: No she didn't, it was Dark Kara, B: it's quite clear to someone who has read both storylines that Superman was far more effected going into the fight than Supergirl was, and C: Dark Kara used her powers, not just strength, more effectively. Superman simply slugged it out with Luthor, overcoming his force field(that Supergirl/Dark Kara didn't have to contend with).
In regards to raw power, it's quite clear Superman absolutely out-performed Supergirl/Dark Kara and was far more effected by Kryptonite(and other factors) than Supergirl/Dark Kara was. If you read both storylines, that is. I have. You have not.
But what did you do when I brought these up to you? You brought-up Kara's Kryptonite poisoning. Yet, that was a retcon. Which means you cannot bring that up, while simultaneously dismissing Superman performing better than Ursa, General Zod and Non at once than Supergirl did against Ursa alone, because Supergirl was "made weaker." This is a blatant, complete double standard. Either you ignore the Kryptonite poisoning retcon and concede that Superman out-performed Supergirl against Luthor, or you retract your argument that she was weaker after Gates, and concede that Superman did better against Ursa/Zod/Non than Supergirl did against Ursa alone.
This brings me to another point. Your claim she was made less powerful. You say because she didn't grow-up on Krypton after Gates took over, compared to her growing-up on a "mega gravity planet that dwarfs Jupiter" shown in SUPERMAN: BIRTHRIGHT and that she was made younger. Due to your inability to back your claims, I used the DC Wiki to find every Supergirl appearance I could during the time you claimed that she was more powerful than Superman, and read them all. I've read her entire series up until Gates took over. I read all her appearances in SUPERMAN/BATMAN. I read her appearances in TEEN TITANS, and more. I also read a good number of appearances after, reading all of the NEW KRYPTON stuff(including the preludes BRAINIAC and THE COMING OF ATLAS), so I've read all of SUPERGIRL during that era, and the appearances she had in other comics.
I feel I've read the majority of her appearances. There's nothing to support your claim she was made less powerful after Sterling Gates took over. Your argument that she was raised on Argo City? She was in her teens by the time Brainiac came, which was before Krypton blew up. And on top of that, considering the atmosphere and artificial gravity on Argo City floating around in space, there's nothing to indicate that it wasn't a similar environment to Krypton. Which seems to be the crux of your argument that she was more powerful than Superman, having grown-up on a planet with far greater gravity. If you're going to argue that Krypton was changed from dwarfing Jupiter to something smaller, the burden of proof is on you.
For her getting younger, during the NEW KRYPTON stuff, she was of age to choose a guild, and Lana was talking to her about college. These indicate she's around 17-18. Contradicting your argument she was made 15. And I don't recall a single thing that would indicate she was made younger, but even if she was, guild choosing and college talk was before WAR OF THE SUPERMEN, meaning she was older than you say during the time you argue she was>Superman, when she performed worse against Ursa alone than Supes did against Ursa/Zod/Non simultaneously.
So, even if we accept Kryptonite poisoning, nothing to back she was made weaker after Gates, and it was removed well before WAR OF THE SUPERMEN. Also, ironic that you say she was made weaker after Gates when some of her better feats come from that period.
