Reading Superman comics

And this I believe wasn't answered

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I honestly don't know how is it that you are disagreeing that is easier to follow a character with few apparitions than a charatcer with lots of apparitions, but lets keep going.

I will put this in percentages. Superman appeared on 7 publications:

Superman, Action Comics, Adventures of Superman, Man of Steel, Man of Tomorrow, JLA and Superman/Batman

If you read all of those comics that means you read 99% of Superman comics regulaly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Superman comics.

Wonder Woman appeared on 2 publications:

Wonder Woman and JLA

If you read all those comics that means you read 99% of Wonder Woman comics regularly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Wonder Woman comics.

BUT Lets inverse the roles here

The Superman fan since he reads JLA titles too he is versed on 49.5% of Wonder Woman appearances
The Wonder Woman fan since he reads JLA tittles too he is versed on 14% of Superman appearances

So the Superman fan has a 99% knowledge of Superman and a 49.5% knowledge of Wonder Woman
The Wonder Woman fan has a 99% knowledge of Wonder Woman and a 14% knowledge of Superman

Who do you think should know more?

The answer is not even debatable, the Superman fan has and advantage of knowledge of Superman of 85% and he is versed 50% on Wonder Woman.

The only way this will change, is if The WW fan will take sometime and inform himself on Superman comics before constructing arguments of ignorance or ill informed or at least he can't lets us know that he is ill informed on Superman. The same applies to the Superman fan, but he is at least better informed on the WW topic.

As for the gear of WW, I think is good that people like you who follow WW inform everybody of those details and btw I never thought that the sword shown on tomorrow is part of her standard gear. I know that because I read Superman comics and JLA comics.

I think you are wrong just by the simple percentages I showed you above, Reading JLA gives us access to 49% of characters like Aquaman, WW, MMH, Flash while WW readers only access 14% of characters like Superman or Batman.

btw I used to read a lot of all the Superman, Batman, Hulk, Punisher and Spiderman tittles backed up by JLA, Xmen classic and Avengers so that gives you a general idea.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Diana had, to that point, beaten each individual member of the Justice League, had command of the JLA Tower, and possessed Kyle's Green Lantern Ring.

Ah, the old "she didn't really mean it" excuse. LMAO. Funny how WW fans use that lame excuse when at the same time they're always more than happy to bring up the time when she said to Clark "I'm faster than you" (LOL). So they believe what she says only when it supports their view of her being Superman's "peer". So typical.

Salsa, I answered much of what you presented on previous pages.

But you're thinking somehow I didn't.

Perhaps providing still fuller context is the key? There WERE statements missed that perhaps should have been included to open this thread.
Also, no one will ever know where to find the thread we're referring to without a link or URL address in the future.

Perhaps we can correct those mistake now by providing both ...

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
It is always the usual posters who think they know everything about Superman when clearly they don't most of the times they create arguments of ignorance and when that does not work they just completely ignore evidence or nitpick at feats and or keep moving the goal post.

People who know about Superman have read a lot of comics I mean Superman is one of the most published characters in comics. There is a reason why they think Superman could do this or that.

The detractors eh... Not so much. They are not superman experts, they might have their opinions and they are entitled to it. But 99% of the time they are wrong, because they form an argument based on ignorance and if that does not work they nitpick or ignore evidence.

Also Juntai said It best. Fighting mind controlled does not even fall under the forum rules so the detractors should drop their flawed argument once and for all.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
One thing about this most recent post of yours, Salsa.

It holds nearly equally true if, wherever you have the word "Superman", you substitute "Wonder Woman".

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
"Nearly equally" is a tad too much.

It is easier to follow/read the adventures of a hero who appears only once a month on a comic ( maybe twice if he/she is popular) than to follow and read all the feats and adventures of heroes like Superman, Batman or Spiderman.

I mean this heroes appear in 5 or 6 comics a month regularly.
Superman on the 90's IIRC was on 7 comics a month with out counting guest appearances.

Fans of Superman can barely keep track of all his adventures when they read ALL of his publications

We have those guys who read a lot of superman telling us what he might or might no be able to do.

Then we have the detractors who apparently only read superman scans posted on sites like this one and try to make and argument based on ignorance. (I remember one time I had a person saying that red sun radiation hurts kryptonians imagine his surprise when he found out that kryptonians used to live under a red sun but the things people will say in order to defend their argument of ignorance is amusing)

I believe that reading or being informed on a character that only appears once a month a comic is way easier than to keep track of Superman, batman or spiderman.

The sacrifice fight does not fall under the rules of the forum. He is being mind controlled and not at the best of his capabilities. So that argument should not even being used here and WW is not even on this thread.

I guess you will agree that following the feats of WW it will be easier than following the feats of Superman or Batman so "nearly equally" is a tad bit to exaggerated by a rate of 6/2

With the amount of comics it will take you to follow all the stories of superman, batman or Spiderman in a month you could read thor, silver surfer, hulk, avengers , wonder woman and still have a book to spare.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=522650&pagenumber=18

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Superman for tomorrow
Superman casually fights Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman looks like a child trying to fight an adult

Winner: Superman

"For Tomorrow" is about as much a fight as the following scene, for reasons I mentioned earlier.

If you like seeing people getting tossed, though, this is your lucky day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5nUsa8ZLm4
2 min 42 sec

For completeness' sake, I'll provide the following. Thinking I have about 2 more posts. Three, possibly, although that'll probably depend on if my computer is acting right.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849443
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849445
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849446

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849450
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849454
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849457
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849465

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman, the Man of Tomorrow #13, Volume 1
Writer: Louise Simonson
Penciller: Paul Ryan
Date: Spring 1999
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman:_Man_of_Tomorrow_Vol_1_13

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There are things implied by certain statements which are present even if you don't intend them. Proof of this? The 2 statements typed by Riv6672 in this thread on the first page. It was strongly enough implied that, without acknowledging much of anything of the specific thread discussion we'd had before, HE felt the need to address that argument.

The implication cannot be avoided Salsa. Whether you intended it or not, a good discussion MUST necessarily deal with this idea.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Do I have to repeat myself?

No, having more comics does not give you an autowin

I hope that is clear now

That is clear now.

Even so, it needed to be said.

I feel the need to illustrate that there are often messages behind messages NOT stated directly, though.

That part you don't seem to get.

I'll be interested to see if this can do the trick; experience has shown me native born American English speakers get this; foreign students in general do not:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4jQ2YXiMDA

(The above is the URL to a 30 second Yao Ming Visa Commercial -- Illustration of Paralanguage and that communication is NOT based solely on the written or spoken word in visual media)

Tying up loose ends, since I originally intended to address everything you'd brought up in this thread:

Originally posted by ODG

Maxwell's mental powers caused Superman to see and react to situations "strategic[ally]," sometimes "brilliant[ly]," despite being made to see different things at different times:

I believe in testing out theories.

Let me preface with saying that, in place of "99%" I would substitute "most" for greater accuracy. There's other language I would not use here of course, but let's proceed all the same.

Salsa, if what you're saying is correct, you should have mighty disagreements with the following.

See if you do.

Put it in to words. I think you're more likely to see my point once we get this removed from the level of pure abstraction and start looking at what the other is saying in proper context:

It is always the usual posters who think they know everything about Wonder Woman when clearly they don't most of the times they create arguments of ignorance and when that does not work they just completely ignore evidence or nitpick at feats and or keep moving the goal post.

People who know about Wonder Woman have read a lot of comics I mean Wonder Woman is one of the most published characters in comics. There is a reason why they think Wonder Woman could do this or that.

The detractors eh... Not so much. They are not Wonder Woman experts, they might have their opinions and they are entitled to it. But 99% of the time they are wrong, because they form an argument based on ignorance and if that does not work they nitpick or ignore evidence.

Yeah, this is exactly what I was afraid of... This isn't a forum for vs threads, so kindly get back on topic, or i'm closing this.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, this is exactly what I was afraid of... This isn't a forum for vs threads, so kindly get back on topic, or i'm closing this.

Im going to close you 😛

You seemed unaware before now, or at least wrote as if you were:

-- Wonder Woman's greatest feats are in other titles, not her own

-- extra publications don't automatically grant feats relevant to specific KMC discussions. Grant Morrison's Action Comics wouldn't give crap useful to a proposed Superman versus Silver Surfer matchup, for instance.

-- discussion is pointless if the mindset is "he who has the most feats automatically wins" without regard for anything else

-- Superman fans seem to forget basic knowledge of how their character and his powers work when acknowledging such would hurt their position
Good case in point are the basic Kryptonian yellow sun powers.
More sun, more power. Increases in strength, speed, damage soak, durability, healing factor, etcetera as a general rule.
Then they can look at something like the following and not understand why people will not accept this as him at standard Earth-based power levels ...

I think, with the exception of answering fully your allusion to historical treatment and sacrificing one character's full potential for the sake of others, I've responded to everything you've written, Salsa.

On the note for the above, of course, I would point out that Wonder Woman, arguably FAR more than Superman, usually gets passed over for the memorable feats that people love to put in respect threads. Historically, taking a wider view in terms of scope of years than yours, Diana DID have a place in her comics similar to the one Superman traditionally has been held to have had in his.

If I've missed covering any question or major point you've presented to the present at this point, let me know.

I am still waiting for a response to this post

This basically puts it whith numbers my originla point

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I honestly don't know how is it that you are disagreeing that is easier to follow a character with few apparitions than a charatcer with lots of apparitions, but lets keep going.

I will put this in percentages. Superman appeared on 7 publications:

Superman, Action Comics, Adventures of Superman, Man of Steel, Man of Tomorrow, JLA and Superman/Batman

If you read all of those comics that means you read 99% of Superman comics regulaly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Superman comics.

Wonder Woman appeared on 2 publications:

Wonder Woman and JLA

If you read all those comics that means you read 99% of Wonder Woman comics regularly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Wonder Woman comics.

BUT Lets inverse the roles here

The Superman fan since he reads JLA titles too he is versed on 49.5% of Wonder Woman appearances
The Wonder Woman fan since he reads JLA tittles too he is versed on 14% of Superman appearances

So the Superman fan has a 99% knowledge of Superman and a 49.5% knowledge of Wonder Woman
The Wonder Woman fan has a 99% knowledge of Wonder Woman and a 14% knowledge of Superman

Who do you think should know more?

The answer is not even debatable, the Superman fan has and advantage of knowledge of Superman of 85% and he is versed 50% on Wonder Woman.

The only way this will change, is if The WW fan will take sometime and inform himself on Superman comics before constructing arguments of ignorance or ill informed or at least he can't lets us know that he is ill informed on Superman. The same applies to the Superman fan, but he is at least better informed on the WW topic.

As for the gear of WW, I think is good that people like you who follow WW inform everybody of those details and btw I never thought that the sword shown on tomorrow is part of her standard gear. I know that because I read Superman comics and JLA comics.

I think you are wrong just by the simple percentages I showed you above, Reading JLA gives us access to 49% of characters like Aquaman, WW, MMH, Flash while WW readers only access 14% of characters like Superman or Batman.

btw I used to read a lot of all the Superman, Batman, Hulk, Punisher and Spiderman tittles backed up by JLA, Xmen classic and Avengers so that gives you a general idea.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I believe in testing out theories.

Let me preface with saying that, in place of "99%" I would substitute "most" for greater accuracy. There's other language I would not use here of course, but let's proceed all the same.

Salsa, if what you're saying is correct, you should have mighty disagreements with the following.

See if you do.

Put it in to words. I think you're more likely to see my point once we get this removed from the level of pure abstraction and start looking at what the other is saying in proper context:

It is always the usual posters who think they know everything about Wonder Woman when clearly they don't most of the times they create arguments of ignorance and when that does not work they just completely ignore evidence or nitpick at feats and or keep moving the goal post.

People who know about Wonder Woman have read a lot of comics I mean Wonder Woman is one of the most published characters in comics. There is a reason why they think Wonder Woman could do this or that.

The detractors eh... Not so much. They are not Wonder Woman experts, they might have their opinions and they are entitled to it. But 99% of the time they are wrong, because they form an argument based on ignorance and if that does not work they nitpick or ignore evidence.

This honestly does not apply. Like you said WW gets her big feats outside her title. If any people like US who read only WW trough JLA comics will tend to overstimate WW as we are reading the feats she does not get regularly on her book

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Tying up loose ends, since I originally intended to address everything you'd brought up in this thread:

Originally posted by ODG

Maxwell's mental powers caused Superman to see and react to situations "strategic[ally]," sometimes "brilliant[ly]," despite being made to see different things at different times:

Oh I forgot ODG is a Superman expert after alll he is the one who said that red sun radiation hurts krypronians.

But besides that and addresing your argument and his.

If strategically brilliant is to send a flight less enemy back to earth is "strategically brilliant" on your opinion I see why you might think this argument of yours/his is "strategically brilliant"

And please stay away of the vs topic on this thread . I dont want PR to close this.

Latee on I will create a topic in which we can discuss the historical fifights of WW and Sm.

But for now lets stay on topic

The topic is how is easier to follow a characters who has less appearances than a character who has a lot of appearances

Still waiting for a responee to this post.

We already have two other posters agrreing that is easier to follow a character with less comics

And this post by the numbers basically seals the deal and proves how flawed your argument was unless you have other way to explain why is harder to follow a character like WW who has less appearances

After that We can move on to the other topic

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I honestly don't know how is it that you are disagreeing that is easier to follow a character with few apparitions than a charatcer with lots of apparitions, but lets keep going.

I will put this in percentages. Superman appeared on 7 publications:

Superman, Action Comics, Adventures of Superman, Man of Steel, Man of Tomorrow, JLA and Superman/Batman

If you read all of those comics that means you read 99% of Superman comics regulaly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Superman comics.

Wonder Woman appeared on 2 publications:

Wonder Woman and JLA

If you read all those comics that means you read 99% of Wonder Woman comics regularly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Wonder Woman comics.

BUT Lets inverse the roles here

The Superman fan since he reads JLA titles too he is versed on 49.5% of Wonder Woman appearances
The Wonder Woman fan since he reads JLA tittles too he is versed on 14% of Superman appearances

So the Superman fan has a 99% knowledge of Superman and a 49.5% knowledge of Wonder Woman
The Wonder Woman fan has a 99% knowledge of Wonder Woman and a 14% knowledge of Superman

Who do you think should know more?

The answer is not even debatable, the Superman fan has and advantage of knowledge of Superman of 85% and he is versed 50% on Wonder Woman.

The only way this will change, is if The WW fan will take sometime and inform himself on Superman comics before constructing arguments of ignorance or ill informed or at least he can't lets us know that he is ill informed on Superman. The same applies to the Superman fan, but he is at least better informed on the WW topic.

As for the gear of WW, I think is good that people like you who follow WW inform everybody of those details and btw I never thought that the sword shown on tomorrow is part of her standard gear. I know that because I read Superman comics and JLA comics.

I think you are wrong just by the simple percentages I showed you above, Reading JLA gives us access to 49% of characters like Aquaman, WW, MMH, Flash while WW readers only access 14% of characters like Superman or Batman.

btw I used to read a lot of all the Superman, Batman, Hulk, Punisher and Spiderman tittles backed up by JLA, Xmen classic and Avengers so that gives you a general idea.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Still waiting for a response to this post.

We already have two other posters agreeing that is easier to follow a character with less comics

And this post by the numbers basically seals the deal and proves how flawed your argument was unless you have other way to explain why is harder to follow a character like WW who has less appearances

After that We can move on to the other topic

As I said, your overall premise, as a general idea, I don't have severe disagreement with. In the context of the versus thread we were in?
Yes, I have great issue with it, not because of the idea itself, but because of all the implications it carries with it. Note that Riv himself, one of the 2 posters you're referring to, ALSO made my same objection, and noted he had experience with someone who carried your idea to the faulty conclusion of "he who has the most magazines has the most feats and therefore wins".

You dealt with one of my other main objections by clarifying you did not really intend to restrict the pool to titles with the characters name or moniker. At the least, that's what I get from the other 3 pages in this thread.
I think you'll agree: If you restrict, say, Wonder Woman TO her Wonder Woman title for feats, you have almost nothing to show for her. Restrict Superman to HIS titles and you still have a collection of many, if not most, of his best stunts.

There's one other thing, IF you want to carry this, as you've been phrasing it, as a general thing, and not specifically to Wonder Woman or Superman.

This is the real-life logistics counter to your premise.

Less published characters are generally lesser known and less popular.

They don't sell well. So stores tend to stop carrying the magazines of that character in favor of more popular ones. Gradually, they begin to disappear.

So, they become harder to find and collect. Often to the point where, the little you COULD theoretically get and read on lesser-known-less-popular character, is still practically unobtainable.

It is actually a similar reality that took comics out of many Mom and Pop stores. It was either Peter David or Kurt Busiek who actually explained the process to me, or at least the theory, in a surprise response on a forum like this one. He made the unlikely argument that comics, by keeping their selling prices low, actually lowered their circulation. For the simple fact that, compared to other publications, they made almost no money in sales for the business owners who stocked them.

With the Internet, this becomes at least slightly less of a problem, owing to the remarkable connectedness and spread of information it allows.

Anyway, in a general sense, that's the real-world answer to your main thread question.

Nah! Like you said the internet has changed things

I can actually and easily follow oscure characters like Aztek or Azrael with out any problem. After I read their "20" something comics compared to Batman where I have to read LOTS of comics and Batman's appearances are so many that is more likely I will skip by mistake some of them.

So reading the popular titles gives you that extra advantage of knowledge in which you get exposed to the lesser known characters just by proxy.

This is why if you read all the Superman titles you will be by default exposed to almost half of the tittles in which the less popular characters appear alongside Superman, but unfortunately is not on the same degree the other way around.

Since we have cleared pretty much this topic I will create the other one only involving post crisis stories canon and non canon. Hopefully I can do it with in the next day. I will include title of the comic and the fights.