Reading Superman comics

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I never said nor imply that own tittles are primary or most valid, but since you are touching the subject lets see, what happens to Superman in order to favor or make the other characters shine.

Superman has his good and also great feats on JLA Tittles, He held a black hole on his hand, one shotted casually primaid and a bunch of others, though on his own titles he has those type of feats too, cooling down a white dwarf star, one shotting imperiex probes and a bunch of others.

While Superman performs really good on his titles, he is often excluded, dumbed down or made to look less formidable on the JLA comics in order to make the other characters shine a little bit, clear example is Grant Morrison's bat God, but is not only exclusive of Batman, they also have to make the other members of the team relevant, we are not reading PC comics anymore in which JLA members were basically useless and WW was serving coffee. so they decide to make the other team members relevant often at expense of Superman, but you know why? because an enemy that can take Superman is a dangerous enemy to defeat the whole league. A character that can defeat WW does not sound as fearsome as a character that can defeat Superman TBH

While WW and others benefit from this post crisis DC mentality, Superman has to take a secondary role in order to let the others shine.

This also reminded me, How DC often leaves Superman out of the company crossovers.

So is funny you mention those feats for WW because they actually sacrifice Superman in order to give her those feats, that she REGULARLY does not get on her own book.
At least Superman has plenty to get from his books and once in a while he gets a worthy feat out of JLA comic books with out sacrificing other characters.

I acknowledge that you believe what you are saying is true, and doubtless so do many others.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

A league of one:
Wonder Woman concedes that she cannot defeat Superman even after she sucker punched him, Superman handles her easily

Winner: Superman

Diana had, to that point, beaten each individual member of the Justice League, had command of the JLA Tower, and possessed Kyle's Green Lantern Ring.

I believe her statement to roughly the same degree that I believe Darkseid couldn't transport Superman to the red star of his choice if he ever deemed it truly necessary.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Action Comics 600:
Not a real fight as both are trying to deceive the enemy

Winner: none

Okay.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Adventures of Superman 642:
A mind controlled Superman scuffles WW, scuffle is too brief, mind controlled Superman gets away

Winner: none
Superman had a mind controlled handicap

He got away by smashing a hole in the space station, forcing Diana to seal the breach to save Batman's life, yes. Described as "tactically brilliant" by Martian Manhunter, incidentally.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Final Crisis
Superman one shots a mind controlled Wonder Woman as a result of an attack that was not even directed at her

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman fell down defeated at an attack that was not even directed at her

Interesting. Sounds a lot like the following:

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

JLA77
"Mind controlled" Wonder Woman scuffles Superman with the help of a "mind controlled" Firestorm, both fail at restraining Superman, Superman defuses the Mnemon sucessfully

Winner Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman had help from a mind controlled Firestorm

This should probably be posted. Wonder Woman isn't mind controlled; she's had her memories of Superman stripped away by Mnemon, as has Firestorm.

Not sure "failing at restraining Superman" is all that accurate, either.
What Superman manages to do, held in a headlock by Wonder Woman, is to use his heat vision to trigger a playback device inside Mnemon that somehow causes it to "release" the stolen memories of the JLA back to their owners.

I must say, while on the subject, the JLA writers do an awesome job of portraying how truly dangerous this device can be and why. I have respect for whoever thought this story up.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

JLA96
Mind controlled Superman fights Wonder Woman, Superman snaps briefly out of the mind control and Diana knocks briefly Superman, which allows Diana to attack the crucifier, A mind controlled Superman then knocks Wonder Woman which allow crucifier to almost kill Wonder Woman

Winner: None
Superman had a mind controlled handicap but some help in the end from crucifier to kill Wonder Woman although Diana HAD help from Superman constantly fighting the mind control

Advantage: Superman

😕

You can write something like this and call ME "biased"?

Do you remember exactly how that scene actually played out?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Well, it shouldn't exactly have taken a crystal ball to predict that ... 😕

I am covering what is most familiar to me. As are you.

Speak for yourself. I am familiar with ALL their fighs. I knew you will choose this one because is the WW fan flagship feat. I understand Everybody wants to meassure to Superman.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
1. The reflection of the Omega Beams I already alluded to in this thread as one of Wonder Woman's outside-of-her-own-magazine feats.

It sounds more like fluke or something she does not regularly performs although I believe her bracers will be able to do that after all it seems her bracers are more resistant then her

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
2. If you're listing Superman top-tier opponents, or Superman opponents in general that most people know, how many are going to come to mind?

Outside of Lex Luthor, there's Doomsday, Darkseid, and Braniac.

That's about it from what the average comic reader would know.

I don't see how the generally known enemies of Superman relate to this particular fight with Darkseid, but...

It shows you haven't read many Superman comics and it proves my point, there is Zod, Mr Myx, Cyborg Superman, Erradicator, Gog, Imperex, Lobo, Mogul, Superboy Prime and Ultraman just to name a few MOST OF THEM are generally known

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
3. More than that, this is one of the fights that took place close to the Sacrifice battle. In fact, at the moment, I can't think of any major fight that occurred any closer to the Sacrifice battle THAN our Superman/Batman #13 engagement.

Well there is also the fight in Superman/Batman #15, which happened 2 months after Superman/Batman #13, in which Superman easily killed Wonder Woman, don't conviniently forget that

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
4. S/B 13 was the closing chapter of the first "Return of Supergirl" arc.
In fact, much of the action, albeit in altered form, was featured in one of DC major animated films.

Very altered, anyhow

---

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Now as mentioned before, the battle DID start with Wonder Woman weakening Darkseid with his own Omega Beams:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859474
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859476
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859482

I do not know why are you bringing Darkseid on "reading Superman comics" which was mainly focused on how We Superman readers are generally more well informed than say WW readers, I thought distracting ourselves with the WW fights was enough out of topic, to start bringing Darkseid into the fray, but since you are going there I will like to see examples of WW facing Darkseid by herself.

In any case the last scan is pure gold, did you noticed how Superman tossed Wonder Woman like a rag doll?

Also you have to prove that the Omega Beams WEAKEN Darkseid, I will believe it hurt him, but like it was mentioned before Darkseid is a vessel for that force, having the omega force in his body will weaken him IF what you said is true plus that it will be ilogical. Also there is no statement about it and if you want to use that old Byrne scan, be aware that it has been retconned of course you will know this IF you were reading more tittles than the casual reader.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
... but then continues much as described earlier in this thread, corroborating much of what you and I have said:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859483
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859489
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859493
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859506
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859539

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman/Batman #13, Volume 1
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Michael Turner
Date: October 2004
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman/Batman_Vol_1_13

Meh! I have no problem with a multiversal god being more powerful than Superman, not physically stronger or durable on his avatar form though, I really don't see the point on this

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Now, the question naturally arises, and too much courtesy has been paid me in the past with scans on request NOT to reciprocate with at least this much:

How do we know taking the Omega Beam deflection weakened Darkseid?

Well, BESIDES the fact that it is the Omega-Beam-struck area of his face that is smoldering with plasma marks after the S/B 13 sun battle, you can refer to an earlier battle where Darkseid ALSO got hit with his own Omega Beams:

That is a conclusion that is based on nothing, YOU THINK DS is weaken yet there is no narration indicating that and you base your conclusion on an event that has been retconed.

If you are going to keep with this line of reasoning you have to provide EVIDENCE that Darkseid strenght and invulnerability get lowered everytime he gets hits with the Omega Beams, other wise your claim has no basis and is just wishful thinking

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861797
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861799
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861800
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861802
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861805
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861807
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861809
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861810
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861811
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861814

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Action Comics #586, Volume 1
Writer/Penciller: John Byrne
Inker: Dick Giordano
Date: March 1987
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_586

This no longer applies to DARKSEID, so it is irrelevant

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
My time is too limited on Sundays to answer more than this tonight, Salsa.

You would not believe how long it took me even to type this post and collate those links.

I'll get to some of the rest of your post tomorrow if time permits.

(Of course, there's nothing besides day or date markers to mark off time on these boards, and I may well get here BEFORE you tomorrow, and thus be the very next one to respond, but ...)

OK

ALSO, I NOTICED YOU ARE RESPONDING NOW, SO I WILL WAIT

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Man of Tomorrow 13
A crazed Superman fights the JLA and the Superman family, Wonder Woman was barely able to restrain Superman's right arm, Superman was 100% charged, not amped like many believe, when Superman is amped he starts emitting plasma.

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA

There's a couple problems here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1. KMC fights are under standard Earth conditions.
Under standard conditions, Superman is only some percent as powerful as he is after he's spent some time directly near, (or even in) the Sun.

Maybe it's 80%, maybe it's 90%. Maybe it's less. Maybe it's more.
Who knows?

Whatever the case is, Superman in Man of Tomorrow #13 is NOT at the level we normally consider for versus fights. Superman even TELLS us this in the story via his thought balloons, when, after Kyle manufactures green kryptonite with his ring, he thinks to himself that the only reason he survived was that he had spent so much time near the sun (disposing of Earth's nuclear weapons).

Whatever the case, if we consider Superman as he normally is on Earth to be our 100% standard, then Superman in Man of Tomorrow #13 is 100%+ whatever the nuclear disposal sun exposure granted him.

2. You're assuming that "amping" is an all or nothing affair.
Presumably you're taking "amping" to be the so-called "sundipped" state of Superman as he appears at the end of Our Worlds at War.

Doubtless in that extreme case he appears as you allude to above and earlier in this thread. However, nothing suggests there are not states above his normal Earth levels and below full blown "Our Worlds at War" amping, and, in fact, most sources suggest quite the opposite.

Superman/Batman #13 discussed earlier for instance, features Superman apparently breaking Darkseid's arm once he has fought him for some time near the sun. Is this something Superman can do normally? Is it something he was ever able to do before that point? Looking at that thread I linked you to earlier, quite the opposite is the case, with Darkseid slapping Superman around rather commandingly as he suggests wearing the Aegis armor to combat Imperiex.

Is he glowing with plasma as he hands the pain to Darkseid in SB13, however?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Action Comics 753
Same crazed Superman faces the JLA, Wonder Woman try to restrain Superman's left arm she was unable to do so. Superman then faces the whole league

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA

I don't recall seeing this episode. It would be appreciated if you posted some scenes from it. If it's the "same crazed Superman" as fights the JLA in MOT13, however, I'd expect what I said above to hold.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Superman for tomorrow
Superman casually fights Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman looks like a child trying to fight an adult

Winner: Superman

For Tomorrow has Superman determined to use a device dubbed, IIRC, "The Vanishing" which Wonder Woman believes will result in his death.
She is so determined to stop him that she picks up that magic blade from Halcyon, which apparently can cut anything and anyone.

However, Superman calls her bluff. Diana is not willing to go all the way in battle. The blade is a killing weapon, and killing Superman is the absolute LAST thing she wants to do. She came there to save him, and doesn't know what to do when he makes it clear he's ready to die for the use of that device, which might restore his loved ones, the people that make life worth living for Superman to begin with.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Wonder Woman 175
A mind controlled brute Superman fights Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman manages to restrain Superman with the lasso, not after she gets bloody and ends up in really bad shape, while Superman is not even bleeding

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap

Unmentioned here is that Superman had been changed by Circe into a monster that appeared to be half-Doomsday. And that apparently every other man changed by Circe in this series got significant observable physical upgrades, including Lex Luthor, who became a giant Spiderlike being with webs capable of ensnaring the Cheetah who earlier WRECKED Superman in battle.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Wonder Woman 219
A mind controlled Superman fights Diana, Superman almost killed Diana with in the first two minutes of the fight, but since he was mind controlled he decides to make Wonder Woman/Doomsday suffer, eventually Diana is able to pull the win

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap

Rucka made it abundantly clear in an interview corroborated by Pr as legit that EVERY governor for Clark was off, that he was going to kill Doomsday, period.

What you're talking about is an issue produced after the fight and Superman's commentary about the fight after the fact. Very little from Wonder Woman 219 itself supports the idea that he decided it a good idea to consciously prolong the fight.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Debatable canon stories

Adventures of Superman 494
Superman kills Wonder Woman on an alternative future

Winner: Superman

I'm not sure I've seen this one.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Superman/Batman 15 this is canon for Superman and apparently for WW too
An enraged Superman makes a short work of Diana and kills her

Winner: Superman

With a blistering ambush and then a choke from behind with her own lasso. But according to the Countdown 52 comics such was used even by Donna Troy to kill Diana, if we're talking alternate realities.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

WW last comics pre flash point
There is another story on WW comics in which she is amped and gets a magical sword and she kills Superman. This happened in a Dream that is supposed to become true

Winner: Wonder Woman
Wonder Woman was amped

Did she have plasma coming from her eyes?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Speak for yourself. I am familiar with ALL their fights. I knew you will choose this one because is the WW fan flagship feat. I understand Everybody wants to measure to Superman.

I think you and I mistook what the other was talking about.
I was referring to the Superman/Batman #13 fight against Darkseid when I responded with the "Crystal Ball" comment, not Sacrifice.

Mind you, I am more than happy to discuss just about any aspect of Sacrifice (Wonder Woman volume 2 #219) that you want in this thread.

I just wasn't referring to it THERE.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

It sounds more like fluke or something she does not regularly performs although I believe her bracers will be able to do that after all it seems her bracers are more resistant then her

😕

No offense, but, if you think Wonder Woman reflecting crap like that is a fluke, how many Wonder Woman comics have you actually READ?
Consider Googling "Wonder Woman" and "deflection" or "bracers" if you have the time.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I don't see how the generally known enemies of Superman relate to this particular fight with Darkseid, but...

It shows you haven't read many Superman comics and [B]it proves my point, there is Zod, Mr Myx, Cyborg Superman, Eradicator, Gog, Imperiex, Lobo, Mogul, Superboy Prime and Ultraman just to name a few MOST OF THEM are generally known
[/b]

I'd be impressed if even half the participants on KMC's comic forums know who or what an Eradicator is.

And I'm familiar with most of the names on the list, but stop and think for a moment. I was talking about Superman charging and increasing his power before battling via increased sun exposure.

How would that help him against Ultraman? If anything, he'd want to keep Ultraman (depending on the incarnation) OUT of the sun, and think of another way to take the wind out of his sails.

Superboy Prime? Neutralizing the solar energy in that boy is priority #1 in most engagements. There's a REASON the heroes tried to fight him at night before the sun came up, after all.

Mogul? Superman moved one of their fights down to the tropics precisely so that he COULD get more sun and an increase in power to fight Mogul.
He made a point of saying that.

Taking Zod to the sun is just asking for punishment. Superman would have a better chance taking him to task on Earth and hoping his own solar reserves would permit him to outlast Zod.

Mxy is magic and would likely remain as unimpressed with sun-amped Superman as he is with regular-state Superman.

And Superman DID charge and increase his power to deal with Imperiex, something you yourself have alluded to though not posted visually in this thread several times now.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Well there is also the fight in Superman/Batman #15, which happened 2 months after Superman/Batman #13, in which Superman easily killed Wonder Woman, don't conveniently forget that

No forgetting necessary. I don't own that book.
The only reason I started reading Superman/Batman was because Jeph Loeb re-introduced Kara Zor-el (i.e. Supergirl) in one of it's early arcs.
For the most part, if she's not in a Superman/Batman book, I don't own it.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I do not know why are you bringing Darkseid on "reading Superman comics" which was mainly focused on how We Superman readers are generally more well informed than say WW readers, I thought distracting ourselves with the WW fights was enough out of topic, to start bringing Darkseid into the fray, but since you are going there I will like to see examples of WW facing Darkseid by herself.

In any case the last scan is pure gold, did you noticed how Superman tossed Wonder Woman like a rag doll?

Also you have to prove that the Omega Beams WEAKEN Darkseid, I will believe it hurt him, but like it was mentioned before Darkseid is a vessel for that force, having the omega force in his body will weaken him IF what you said is true plus that it will be ilogical. Also there is no statement about it and if you want to use that old Byrne scan, be aware that it has been retconned of course you will know this IF you were reading more tittles than the casual reader.

... I have no problem with a multiversal god being more powerful than Superman, not physically stronger or durable on his avatar form though, I really don't see the point on this

That is a conclusion that is based on nothing, YOU THINK DS is weaken yet there is no narration indicating that and you base your conclusion on an event that has been retconned.

If you are going to keep with this line of reasoning you have to provide EVIDENCE that Darkseid strength and invulnerability get lowered everytime he gets hits with the Omega Beams, other wise your claim has no basis and is just wishful thinking

This no longer applies to DARKSEID, so it is irrelevant

I'm not sure how in the world you'd consider Wonder Woman fights to be off topic in a thread which you yourself say is concerned with determining how well-informed Superman readers are concerning her versus how well Wonder Woman fans are regarding him.

But with Darkseid, I already explained that her deflection of his beams to aid Superman in his SB13 fight with Darkseid, was a feat that does NOT appear in her own title, where encounters with Darkseid are VERY rare indeed. It's also an unexpected proof that widely read Superman fans are likely not very familiar with what Diana can and cannot do. The fact that you can call the deflection of Omega Beams a "fluke" when Wonder Woman has a feat or two of deflecting the power of members of her Greek Pantheon COMBINING their power in united blasts illustrates this quite well.

As for proving Darkseid is weakened after telling us his Omega Force is spent, his face smouldering, his words coming out haltingly and slowly, trying a different tack and then declaring himself beaten after a few blows to Orion, peer of Superman, with whom Darkseid himself has had lengthy fight engagements, well, no I don't have to prove that.

You are welcome to your opinion. I do not share it.

By the way, if your premise were true, if a metahuman body "logically" could not be weakened by a force it generates, Kryptonians should not be able to hurt each other with their heat vision. As it is, they can and do.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

As for proving Darkseid is weakened after telling us his Omega Force is spent, his face smouldering, his words coming out haltingly and slowly, trying a different tack and then declaring himself beaten after a few blows to Orion, peer of Superman, with whom Darkseid himself has had lengthy fight engagements, well, no I don't have to prove that.

You are welcome to your opinion. I do not share it.

By the way, if your premise were true, if a metahuman body "logically" could not be weakened by a force it generates, Kryptonians should not be able to hurt each other with their heat vision. As it is, they can and do.

This is a total red herring. Rao made it clear that he agrees the Omega Beams can hurt Darkseid, yet you argue it actually reduces his strength and durability. Rao's point is it's illogical for his body to contain energy that weakens him. A better analogy with Kryptonians would be red solar energy, not their heat vision.

A better analogy would be, I can hurt you by punching you in the nose and busting it open. But will it have the same effect as a flu that takes such a toll on your body, you're exhausted from getting out of bed? No, no it will not. The Omega Beams hitting Darkseid are the punch in the nose. You're trying to argue they're the flu, by the contradictory argument of a scene, which had been retconned(something you're very, very selective about counting) as Desaad posing as Darkseid, of the Omega Force being spent after being hit with the Omega Beams. By that bassackwards logic, if the Omega Force weakens him, and he's spent it, he should be stronger.

Also, for all your arguments of Darkseid gets weakened by the Omega Beams is why Superman beats him, what about this?

Superman has Darkseid on his knees in 3 punches. And has Darkseid teleporting away when threatening to put him back on The Source Wall.

What is your counter argument to that fight? Think carefully. I know your most likely kneejerk response counter argument, is actually something that will come to haunt you.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

First of all 100% sun charge is PEAK CONDITION, Not a power increase, He is fighting at a 100% power level, if you want to claim that Superman is somewhat amplified from that solar exposure, then you will have to show Superman emitting plasma, displaying new powers or his body will be getting unusually big, none of those happened on the book. So if you claim he is getting and extra boost or an amp the burden of proof is on you. He is only at Peak suncharge if any, like I said he is not emitting plasma, nor developing new powers and his body is not abnormally big, so he is not amped, just 100% sun charged

I already covered the argument that suncharged is merely 100%.
Compared to the way Superman normally is on Earth, it's not.
For the sake of argument, the best I can do if you really wanted to go that way, is say that Superman is normally some percentage lower than 100% under ordinary conditions.

But this other part you're claiming can't be agreed to just for the sake of argument. "[H]ave to show Superman emitting plasma, displaying new powers or his body will be getting unusually big"?

That's simply not true.

And here's where I don't think supercomprehensive knowledge of all things Superman is a relevant factor. Some things, Superman is bound to in general principle. For instance his superspeed and flight are granted to him, NOT because people choose to call him "Superman", but because DC has decided that he is (was) a post-Crisis-on-Infinite-Earths Kryptonian.

With residents of the former planet Krypton gaining such incredible power from exposure to yellow sun, largely in proportion to the amount of sun they receive.

Generally speaking, more sun= more power.

Enter Supergirl.

Note that, like Superman, she, too, is a descendant of Rao, Kryptonian DC Sun God. So any argument that Superman is special because of that is negated. Similarly, arguments that Superman "holds back" won't hold here. In Sacrifice, Greg Rucka tells us himself every governor with Superman is off. With SB13, Superman is deliberately tricking himself with the thought that Darkseid actually killed Kara with that first fired Omega Blast.

Does more sun=more power for her?

This really better not have turned in to a VS thread.

The case holds. More sun. More power.

Proof is that Supergirl flies not only far faster, but far further than she intends and has trouble braking.

She feels tingly as if she has a sunburn.

But she does not get bigger. She does not radiate weird energies.

And she does not demonstrate any new powers.

Amping is not an all or nothing affair.
There are degrees to it.

For Kryptonians, including Superman, more sun generally equals more power. And there are different ways to portray it.

Source: The Brave and the Bold, first arc, "The Book of Destiny"
Writer: Mark Waid

^ @Delta

Yes I noticed the red herring but thanks to pointing it out for anyone who might have not seeing it.

@Bluewater

I will reply tomorrow as time allows it, but before that I will like to point another fallacy of yours

Delta's points have been I think excellent regarding this topic yet you have not engaged him for whatever reason that might be.

But ignoring good points just because you don't like the debating style of person X is called "style over substance fallacy"

Also while I know you like Naijaboy's debating style could you please tone down the ad verbosium?

I will reply later on today if time allows it

Originally posted by -Pr-
This really better not have turned in to a VS thread.

It started as something else but the points and the math proven to the opposition hasn't been acknowledge and somehow it has diverted as a Supeman vs WW

Apparently Blue has a point to make after we discuss alll the ww fights and ds fights vs superman onto why reading 2 comic titles is harder than reading 7 titles

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Delta's points have been I think excellent regarding this topic yet you have not engaged him for whatever reason that might be.

But ignoring good points just because you don't like the debating style of person X is called "style over substance fallacy"

I'm a little surprised to see a post like this from you.
I explained already why I would not be engaging him in this thread on page 2 and you acknowledged as much and said "Ok" in response:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

I'm likely going to limit my responses to you alone in this thread. Don't need any distractions or hard feelings, and you, virtually alone of the Superman fans I've interacted with here over the years, I feel I can trust to be civil. I'm also certain I can trust you to present anything that needs presenting for response for useful conversation.

Or re-presenting as the case may be.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

OK

If you feel there is something that needs addressing, put it in a post in your own words as your own argument.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Also while I know you like Naijaboy's debating style could you please tone down the ad verbosium?

I honestly do not know what you mean by this phrase or what I've done that you're objecting to. Spell it out and I'll do my best to amend things or try a different approach.

But I really have no idea what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I will reply later on today if time allows it

Thank you for your time.

Actually let me correct that out

The WW topic was brought because a person who I believe uses arguments of ignorance said that historically WW has been shown to be equal to superman and that superman has never dominated ww

So I cited all their fights just to prove that an argument that is based only on 15% of their comic history is a flawed argument because they ignore the other 85% mainly because they haven't read as many comics as a superman reader

Originally posted by -Pr-
This really better not have turned in to a VS thread.

After a page of posts from Blue, it's hard to tell what a topic has turned into!!

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
It started as something else but the points and the math proven to the opposition hasn't been acknowledge and somehow it has diverted as a Supeman vs WW

Apparently Blue has a point to make after we discuss all the ww fights and ds fights vs superman onto why reading 2 comic titles is harder than reading 7 titles

😕

Am I missing something here? Was it ME who brought up the 10 or 11 fights you said Wonder Woman and Superman have had between themselves or yourself? Did you list them to be ignored, or did you want a response?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

the points and the math proven to the opposition hasn't been acknowledge and somehow it has diverted as a Superman vs WW

What exactly have I failed to acknowledge or respond to that you've presented so far?

@ blue

Yes I recognize I said OK at you not answering other post. However I thought Deltas points were relevant to our conversation.

However it seems it is not the case anymore as Pr might be looking at this thread as a vs thread.

So it will be better to stick to the original post and leave the vs part for some other time or place

However if you want to discuss the vs part of it, I will gladly do ot in the proper thread.

Maybe we can make a threas called Supeman/Wonder Woman post crisis fights

It was me who brought the 10 fights not bluewater

I apologize for the confusion