Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I think we've all seen enough, "Yoda has fought Dooku and is better than Mace who defeated Sidious," for a lifetime.
So why just jump to the conclusion that Sidious is better?
There's no point in comparing much lesser opponents like Tiin/Kolar/Fisto or Maul/Opress because Yoda's also Vastly above them.
It's the top opponents that matter: Dooku, Windu and of course the Yoda vs Sidious Ultimate. (There's also the dream version which also had them pretty equal).
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Expand please so I can counter this idea that seems to be going around lately.
What is there to expand? Maul+Savage pwnage, speed blitzing council members etc.
Every time Sidious fought someone, he performed on the same level where Yoda falls short in quantity and consistency as he didn't perform that well against Dooku(though I'm willing to agree he was holding back to a degree) and doesn't really have that many saber feats.
I'm not saying that Sidious would outright defeat him in a duel. Only that he has more impressive showings and mastery of the forms.
Also this:
Originally posted by ILS
"Outmatched, Yoda retreats and waits to train a new champion to lead the fight against evil.""Though Yoda is a tough combatant, the Emperor uses his Sith powers to release lightning bolts and hurl floating platforms at his foe. Ultimately the battle proves too much for Yoda, who barely escapes and is whisked away to safety by Senator Bail Organa."
"Yoda tries to stop Palpatine, the new Emperor, from taking control. He loses and barely escapes with his life."
Ultimate Star Wars, pages 52-53, Yoda's entry.
Not seeing much room for debate here. It's a canon, out of universe source, authority that transcends even that of the all-knowing Filoni.
If your argument is that you're now going to neglect sources like this in favour of looking solely at the movie, then proceed also to stop debating any form of Star Wars media outside of just the movies, otherwise you'd be presenting yourself as a selective hypocrite. 😮💨
Well to be fair, Yoda did pretty easily outskill Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Depa Billaba at the same time while barely moving and not using a lightsaber. Matches up nicely with Sheev stomping the B-Team with an element of surprise.
Having said that I find Sheev's humiliation of Maul and Savage simultaneously, and the general description of his fighting style, to be superior to Yoda's fight with Dooku and the way he fights in general. Only very slightly.
Originally posted by Sinious
What is there to expand? Maul+Savage pwnage, speed blitzing council members etc.
All those are so vastly inferior to Yoda it's not even funny.
That's like me saying Yoda's force powers > Sidious's because Yoda instantly froze and disarmed Ventress at will.
But again all these opponents are so vastly below Yoda and Sidious it proves nothing.
The more relevant fights are Yoda vs Dooku, Mace vs Sidious and Ultimately Yoda vs Sidious.
Originally posted by Sinious
Every time Sidious fought someone, he performed on the same level where Yoda falls short in quantity and consistency as he didn't perform that well against Dooku(though I'm willing to agree he was holding back to a degree) and doesn't really have that many saber feats.
Dooku wasn't even in Saber reach when Sidious choked him. Dooku wasn't even in a fight with him. Yoda never once even attacked Dooku with Tk. And we've never seen Dooku in a pure fencing match against Sidious.
So try again with your "Every time Sidious fought someone, he performed on the same level where Yoda falls short in quantity and consistency".
Originally posted by Sinious
I'm not saying that Sidious would outright defeat him in a duel. Only that he has more impressive showings and mastery of the forms.
You've yet to point out even 1 superior dueling feat.
Originally posted by Sinious
Also this:
You mean from the fight where Yoda disarmed Sidious in Sabers?
Yeah, no, try again.
Nick Gillard seems to think Palpatine is the best, tbh.
Pertaining to whether Sidious is right-handed or left-handed with a lightsaber, he's ambidextrous. He's just that good. - NGSidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced. - NG
It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him. - NG
Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style. - NG
On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious." - NG
Originally posted by ILS
Well to be fair, Yoda did pretty easily outskill Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Depa Billaba at the same time while barely moving and not using a lightsaber. Matches up nicely with Sheev stomping the B-Team with an element of surprise.Having said that I find Sheev's humiliation of Maul and Savage simultaneously, and the general description of his fighting style, to be superior to Yoda's fight with Dooku and the way he fights in general. Only very slightly.
I agree with everything said here. 👆
Originally posted by Darth Thor
All those are so vastly inferior to Yoda it's not even funny.That's like me saying Yoda's force powers > Sidious's because Yoda instantly froze and disarmed Ventress at will.
But again all these opponents are so vastly below Yoda and Sidious it proves nothing.
The more relevant fights are Yoda vs Dooku, Mace vs Sidious and Ultimately Yoda vs Sidious.
I was giving examples to show consistency. I never said those feats by them selves prove Sidious > Yoda. Should Sidious fail to defeat someone who is inferior to Ventress on equal ground though, I'll consider that as a valid argument.
Dooku wasn't even in Saber reach when Sidious choked him. Dooku wasn't even in a fight with him. Yoda never once even attacked Dooku with Tk. And we've never seen Dooku in a pure fencing match against Sidious.So try again with your "Every time Sidious fought someone, he performed on the same level where Yoda falls short in quantity and consistency".
You've yet to point out even 1 superior dueling feat.
Who cares about Sidious choking Dooku? I never even mentioned that. 😬
We know that Maul and Dooku aren't far apart from each other as duelists. We can compare Yoda's performance against Dooku to Sidious' performance against Maul+Savage.
You mean from the fight where Yoda disarmed Sidious in Sabers?Yeah, no, try again.
In an advantageous spot. And don't say Sidious chose to fight there cause its already been explained to you that it could be for any reason that Sidious chose to move to that spot(most likely to heighten the ground they're fighting on so he/they could use the entire room).
Originally posted by Sinious
For various reasons(some of them mentioned above) that does not indicate that Sidious went up there to gain advantage. Besides, what advantage could he have there?
Using his strength to force Yoda off? Cleaving off one of his legs because he has to jump around and maneuver more. The point is Yoda has Sidious on the retreat the entirety of the lightsaber duel portion. If he thought he could defeat Yoda in his office, which is about as neutral as neutral gets he would have. Instead he attempts to retreat from the office not once but twice. Your opinion that Sidious wouldn't get beaten in an sabers match is contradicted by Sidious himself's action to withdraw...twice.
I think Sidious and Yoda are equals, but I also think Sidious needs his preferred form Jar'Kai in order to win. Otherwise its in Yoda's favor.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Using his strength to force Yoda off? Cleaving off one of his legs because he has to jump around and maneuver more. The point is Yoda has Sidious on the retreat the entirety of the lightsaber duel portion. If he thought he could defeat Yoda in his office, which is about as neutral as neutral gets he would have. Instead he attempts to retreat from the office not once but twice. Your opinion that Sidious wouldn't get beaten in an sabers match is contradicted by Sidious himself's action to withdraw...twice.
Really my thing is the two are equals in sabers as really Sidious was able to match yoda even when in a disadvantaged spot. He couldn't use his speed the way he wanted to. Also yoda did not disarm him of his saber he forced him to drop it as he put a lot of pressure on him. It doesn't say he disarmed him of his saber.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Using his strength to force Yoda off? Cleaving off one of his legs because he has to jump around and maneuver more. The point is Yoda has Sidious on the retreat the entirety of the lightsaber duel portion. If he thought he could defeat Yoda in his office, which is about as neutral as neutral gets he would have. Instead he attempts to retreat from the office not once but twice. Your opinion that Sidious wouldn't get beaten in an sabers match is contradicted by Sidious himself's action to withdraw...twice.I think Sidious and Yoda are equals, but I also think Sidious needs his preferred form Jar'Kai in order to win. Otherwise its in Yoda's favor.
Originally posted by ILS
Well to be fair, Yoda did pretty easily outskill Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Depa Billaba at the same time while barely moving and not using a lightsaber. Matches up nicely with Sheev stomping the B-Team with an element of surprise.
Nice catch, though. This feat is easily on pair with, if not exceeding, Sidious beating the B-team 👆
One more thing.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Really my thing is the two are equals in sabers as really Sidious was able to match yoda even when in a disadvantaged spot. He couldn't use his speed the way he wanted to. Also yoda did not disarm him of his saber he forced him to drop it as he put a lot of pressure on him. It doesn't say he disarmed him of his saber.
Also, it was Sidious who chose the podium, so he must have thought it was the best option.
OR
As seen in the movie, it was Yoda who forced Sidious while they were on the floor in the office to go for the podium.
Either way, Yoda was pressing Sidious on a neutral ground in a saber fight.