Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Really my thing is the two are equals in sabers as really Sidious was able to match yoda even when in a disadvantaged spot. He couldn't use his speed the way he wanted to. Also yoda did not disarm him of his saber he forced him to drop it as he put a lot of pressure on him. It doesn't say he disarmed him of his saber.
Lol that is literally the definition of disarming bro. Forcing someone to drop their weapon is disarming. And I am simply suggesting that Sidious needs to use his preferred form of lightsaber combat to defeat Yoda. Why is that so hard to understand? If the roles were reversed and Yoda couldn't use Ataru, I wouldn't be arguing that Sidious legit disarmed him.
Originally posted by Stigma
👆As I recall Yoda humiliated them, really. 👆
Nice catch, though. This feat is easily on pair with, if not exceeding, Sidious beating the B-team 👆
Easily exceeding imo. Legends Depa is capable of pressing Mace Windu in a duel, and Plo Koon is superior to any member of the B-Team. If Yoda had a saber he'd have wrecked them all.
Originally posted by Sinious
We know that Maul and Dooku aren't far apart from each other as duelists.
I'm not sure we know that.
Originally posted by Sinious
We can compare Yoda's performance against Dooku to Sidious' performance against Maul+Savage.
Kind of kind of Iffy ABC Logic there tbh. If you want to go down that road then Yoda vs Dooku would be better compared to Sidious vs Windu.
Aside from that this "consistency" argument against opponents which are vastly inferior to both Yoda and Sidious are kind of pointless to bring up, unless Yoda has a lower performance against similar level opponents. Simply because Yoda and Sidious have fought each other, and there was no noticeable difference between the 2 in either Sabers or Force Powers (and I'm saying that despite the fact that Yoda most likely disarmed Sidious of his weapon in the Saber match up).
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Legends!Depa was "capable of pressing Mace" more than 10 years after that feat occurred. There's no evidence that she was that good at the time of that demonstration.Calm down.
Gonna go ahead and say nope on that one. Considering that Depa, Sora and Mace had already created Vaapad by that point. There's no evidence of a power gap between TPM Mace and AOTCs Mace...the same would be true for Depa.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Legends!Depa was "capable of pressing Mace" more than 10 years after that feat occurred. There's no evidence that she was that good at the time of that demonstration.
Not to mention Yoda was unarmed and he hardly moved during the assault, yet still he humiliated them.
Either way, I'd say the intent was clear: To demonstrate how well beyond these Jedi is Yoda. Much like in RotS the demonstration was how well beyond B-team is Sheev.
Now, what we need to agree is that both feats are in the same ballpark.
As I said before RotS Yoda and RotS Sidious are virtually equals. As in, as close to equals as it gets in SW.
My personal preference to look at it is that Yoda is a tiny bit better duelist (no pun intended), while Sidious is a tiny bit better Force user. Sidious tactical awareness might be better too, imho.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Gonna go ahead and say nope on that one. Considering that Depa, Sora and Mace had already created Vaapad by that point. There's no evidence of a power gap between TPM Mace and AOTCs Mace...the same would be true for Depa.
First, where is it said that Depa co-created Vaapad with Mace? Second, inferring that a decade of continued training and study would not result in a shift in skill is asinine.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
First, where is it said that Depa co-created Vaapad with Mace? Second, inferring that a decade of continued training and study would not result in a shift in skill is asinine.
Case in point:
Additional examples include Yoda and Sidious himself. Study of the force does not always= increased Saber skills. If it did Vitiate would have better lightsaber skills than the Zett Jukasta-level swordsmanship he's displayed.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lol that is literally the definition of disarming bro. Forcing someone to drop their weapon is disarming. And I am simply suggesting that Sidious needs to use his preferred form of lightsaber combat to defeat Yoda. Why is that so hard to understand? If the roles were reversed and Yoda couldn't use Ataru, I wouldn't be arguing that Sidious legit disarmed him.Easily exceeding imo. Legends Depa is capable of pressing Mace Windu in a duel, and Plo Koon is superior to any member of the B-Team. If Yoda had a saber he'd have wrecked them all.
It also has to do with the location they were in as well as Sidious wasn't able to use his force speed as well as it were in more of an open place such as when he fought maul and opress or where yoda fought Dooku. Somewhere with open space that couldnt hamper Sidious movements.
Originally posted by StigmaAs I said before RotS Yoda and RotS Sidious are virtually equals. As in, as close to equals as it gets in SW.
My personal preference to look at it is that Yoda is a tiny bit better duelist (no pun intended), while Sidious is a tiny bit better Force user.
👆
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It also has to do with the location they were in as well as Sidious wasn't able to use his force speed as well as it were in more of an open place such as when he fought maul and opress or where yoda fought Dooku. Somewhere with open space that couldnt hamper Sidious movements.
Yoda and Sidious fought in a very open space. The Senate room. Unlike where Sidious fought Mace, that was definitely a more cramped environment, and Sidious was likely hampered further by having to blitz Tiin/Kolar/Fisto first.
Not to mention Sidious vs Yoda began on ground level, then went onto the Senate Pod, which was seemingly Sidious's own choice.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I'm not sure we know that.
Dooku is better but they're relatively close. More importantly, Maul is no Ventress; with Savage's aid, he could defeat Dooku imo. So its more fair to compare Savage+Maul to Dooku I guess.
Kind of kind of Iffy ABC Logic there tbh. If you want to go down that road then Yoda vs Dooku would be better compared to Sidious vs Windu.With the amp he got in ROTS, Windu would s**t on Dooku. 👆
Aside from that this "consistency" argument against opponents which are vastly inferior to both Yoda and Sidious are kind of pointless to bring up, unless Yoda has a lower performance against similar level opponents. Simply because Yoda and Sidious have fought each other, and there was no noticeable difference between the 2 in either Sabers or Force Powers (and I'm saying that despite the fact that Yoda most likely disarmed Sidious of his weapon in the Saber match up).
You're missing the point. I didn't say Sidious defeated Yoda in sabers in ROTS. Imo, overall it was too close to consider it a showing of superiority for both sides. Sidious won in the grand scheme of things and also had the upper hand in their fight when it ended. That is not the discussion though. My belief is that(like ILS pointed out) the way Sidious' mastery is described is more impressive as a whole and like you just pointed out, he would defeat Yoda in different circumstances(Where both knew they'd fight each other before hand and had the chance to use whatever form they want on plain neutral ground).
Is everyone just going to ignore the quotes ILS posted the other day about Yoda being outmatched and having barely escaped with his life in their duel in ROTS? They're near equals and close in skill, but that fight and the quotes he posted made it clear Sidious is Yoda's superior in skill and power.
Originally posted by Sinious
Dooku is better but they're relatively close. More importantly, Maul is no Ventress; with Savage's aid, he could defeat Dooku imo. So its more fair to compare Savage+Maul to Dooku I guess.
Not the same thing to take out 2 lesser opponents than 1 stronger opponent IMO. That's why I think Dooku/Mace is a better comparison.
Originally posted by Sinious
With the amp he got in ROTS, Windu would s**t on Dooku. 👆
Meh. I still don't buy the "Amp". But in any case Windu was actually fighting as Sidious's equal, and even beat him. Dock fought off Yoda, but was clearly not his equal.
Originally posted by Sinious
You're missing the point. I didn't say Sidious defeated Yoda in sabers in ROTS. Imo, overall it was too close to consider it a showing of superiority for both sides. Sidious won in the grand scheme of things and also had the upper hand in their fight when it ended.
I'm good with all this
👆
Originally posted by Sinious
That is not the discussion though. My belief is that(like ILS pointed out) the way Sidious' mastery is described is more impressive as a whole
Depends how that relates to combat though in comparison to Yoda (which we've basically seen).
Originally posted by Sinious
and like you just pointed out, he would defeat Yoda in different circumstances(Where both knew they'd fight each other before hand and had the chance to use whatever form they want on plain neutral ground).
I've argued the Official Site points out that Jar Kai is Sidious's preferred form, and a style he didn't get to Utilise against Yoda.
Still I wouldn't expect that to make more than a slight difference. They'd still be more or less equals Imo, and nothing suggests otherwise Imho.
Sidious's possible edge in Force Powers also won't really be a deciding fact Imho.
Fact is fight we were given wasn't even decided by Sabers. And it was pretty equal until Yoda fell (situational). Then Yoda escaped presumably because he had no fight left in him. But even then, Sidious wasn't exactly attempting to pursue his advantage, presumably because he didn't have much left in him either.
Originally posted by carthage
Is everyone just going to ignore the quotes ILS posted the other day about Yoda being outmatched and having barely escaped with his life in their duel in ROTS? They're near equals and close in skill, but that fight and the quotes he posted made it clear Sidious is Yoda's superior in skill and power.
I've been over this. Yoda escaped, even though Sidious wasn't chasing him. If it was an almost stalemate, then obviously Yoda has more to loose by hanging around.
Yoda escaped with his life, but I'd argue Sidious just barely made it out of that fight alive as well, and the quote doesn't contradict that.
Lastly the quote says nothing about "Skill" or "Power". In fact if anything Yoda won the Saber duel according to the ROTS Script.
Sidious's biggest advantage in that fight came when Yoda fell off the Senate Pod. That was the only point in the whole fight where Yoda may have been "outmatched." And that was a situational fall.
I'll explain here again what I explained to ILS. Quotes supplement the films, they don't replace them. And context isn't thrown out of the window when it comes to quotes either.
Originally posted by Sinious
For various reasons(some of them mentioned above) that does not indicate that Sidious went up there to gain advantage. Besides, what advantage could he have there?
Read the stuff under the third quote. Explains the difficulties of fighting Yoda on equal ground and the advantage Sidious gained from moving to the podium. And you can even check it at home, if you're inclined to do so.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not the same thing to take out 2 lesser opponents than 1 stronger opponent IMO. That's why I think Dooku/Mace is a better comparison.
I would agree that this is relevant if Dooku the superior one could also defeat those 2 inferior beings.
Meh. I still don't buy the "Amp". But in any case Windu was actually fighting as Sidious's equal, and even beat him. Dock fought off Yoda, but was clearly not his equal.
Maybe its because you also didn't buy the novel and read it. 😉
Besides, I think its pretty clear Sidious wanted those people there and therefor its really hard to say "Windu beat him". The scene is more complicated than that.
Depends how that relates to combat though in comparison to Yoda (which we've basically seen).Well since they're so close I felt like it should matter. Especially in this thread cause its not about who would win but who is better in general.
I've argued the Official Site points out that Jar Kai is Sidious's preferred form, and a style he didn't get to Utilise against Yoda.Still I wouldn't expect that to make more than a slight difference. They'd still be more or less equals Imo, and nothing suggests otherwise Imho.
👆
Sidious's possible edge in Force Powers also won't really be a deciding fact Imho.Fact is fight we were given wasn't even decided by Sabers. And it was pretty equal until Yoda fell (situational). Then Yoda escaped presumably because he had no fight left in him. But even then, Sidious wasn't exactly attempting to pursue his advantage, presumably because he didn't have much left in him either.
Originally posted by Nai
Click me.Read the stuff under the third quote. Explains the difficulties of fighting Yoda on equal ground and the advantage Sidious gained from moving to the podium. And you can even check it at home, if you're inclined to do so.
I will read it in the near future and reply accordingly.
The fact remains that Sidious is an extremely mobile fighter. On the podium he's practically immobilized whereas because of his size, Yoda still has the advantage of maneuverability.
On that note, there is a difference between what happened to Sidious and being generically disarmed. Sidious was forced over the edge by Yoda's assault and dropped the lightsaber--effectively disarming him. That worked fine, but the issue is that this would never happen in a standard environment, where Sidious could give ground unrestricted by the small podium.
Odds are Sidious moved to the podium for the single purpose of moving the fight to the vast upper level.