Superman vs Thor: fist fight

Originally posted by abhilegend
You still didn't explain how it would affect Thor's durability. Thor had to pound Gladiator several times with mjolnir and energy blast him to subdue him when he was all out.

So your point is?

Not when he actually said that the building was dulling his senses. Can you even read?

Are you trying to say J'onn was stronger than Superman there?

😂

You mean the part where he Clark says parts of the building was immune to his vision powers and super hearing? Lol if that's what you're referring, that's an odd way of looking at it... Unless of course you're talking about another panel.

What idiot would agree to that? Straw man much? J'onn performed better than Supes in their interaction with Cheetah sure. Deal with it.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
It's not about just durability. Your logic is all out of wack. Seriously man you gotta work on that. Take Konvikt laying out Supes for example. Initially he took him by surprise. Second go around, it looked like Supes was starting to turn the tide on him. In fact he even stated that earlier on he was on the defensive and that he has now found his measure. I'm willing to be that had not Bruce called Clark to him, he would have taken out Konvikt himself the painful way. The same way any high herald worth his salt usually kicks it up a notch.

You mean the part where he Clark says parts of the building was immune to his vision powers and super hearing? Lol if that's what you're referring, that's an odd way of looking at it... Unless of course you're talking about another panel.

What idiot would agree to that? Straw man much? J'onn performed better than Supes in their interaction with Cheetah sure. Deal with it.

You don't see other herald levelers suddenly overpower a skyfather or abstract under their own power.

That's the same point as in the other thread: the catalyst to Superman's ramps in power is himself. He holds himself back so he doesn't hurt others. But since on the forum we know he contains this level of power, it's absolutely viable to debating. Just as Flash doesn't always break out lightspeed, as he often cruises a few times sound-speed, but on the forum any opponent he fights is gonna have to deal with it.

In the Konvict battle, he stood up and began ramping his power to 'crush small planet' territory.

As for the slugfest -- Supes wins.
His durability and strength win the day.

Originally posted by Juntai
The problem is, these are low notches for Superman. His higher ones make him above cosmic beings.

You don't see other herald levelers suddenly overpower a skyfather or abstract under their own power.

That's the same point as in the other thread: the catalyst to Superman's ramps in power is himself. He holds himself back so he doesn't hurt others. But since on the forum we know he contains this level of power, it's absolutely viable to debating. Just as Flash doesn't always break out lightspeed, as he often cruises a few times sound-speed, but on the forum any opponent he fights is gonna have to deal with it.

In the Konvict battle, he stood up and began ramping his power to 'crush small planet' territory.

High herald level characters do not overpower skyfathers or abstracts on a regular basis.

Can you clarify your point? Other thread? Viable debating? Not sure what you're getting at.

In the Konvict fight, he was still lying on the ground lifeless in the opening page of the next issue. May have been a cliffhanger, but doesn't change the fact that he was laid out with his eyes closed(though not for an extended period of time).

Anyways we take everything into account. Highs, lows, averages, and most importantly regular portrayals.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17 He's not above cosmic beings the same way Thor is not. No herald is.

High herald level characters do not overpower skyfathers or abstracts on a regular basis.

In the Konvict fight, he was still lying on the ground lifeless in the opening page of the next issue. May have been a cliffhanger, but doesn't change the fact that he was laid out with his eyes closed(though not for an extended period of time).

Anyways we take everything into account. Highs, lows, averages, and most importantly regular portrayals.

And, no, the rules say this;

It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.

He will fight to the best of his ability, and use any means to win and any power at their disposal.

Within personality DOES NOT mean he will be holding his power down as he often does in comics, as full capacity is specifically mentioned separate from this idea with an exact description of their meaning in the Flash reference.

It's reffering to the method of HOW they will fight.

e.g; Surfer isn't going to open black holes in someone's brain for a victory.

But the upper end of Superman's power is fully viable.

Probably Superman

Originally posted by Juntai
You're right. Heralds can't.
But Superman can and does.

Meaningless. It was just picking up where it left off. Then he stood up and started fighting.
Nothing at any point said he was knocked out.
That's pure extrapolation.

And, no, the rules say this;

He will fight to the best of his ability, and use any means to win and any power at their disposal.

Within personality DOES NOT mean he will be holding his power down as he often does in comics, as full capacity is specifically mentioned separate from this idea with an exact description of their meaning in the Flash reference.

It's reffering to the method of HOW they will fight.

e.g; Surfer isn't going to open black holes in someone's brain for a victory.

But the upper end of Superman's power is fully viable.

Meaningless? Says who you? The pictures speak for themselves so I would wholeheartedly disagree. Many have seen these scenes many a time, but here they are again. Even though it was for a brief period of time, he was clearly laid out.

Not sure why you're delving deep into the rules btw..

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Wait.. You really don't think he's regularly portrayed as far above high herald do you?

Meaningless? Says who you? The pictures speak for themselves so I would wholeheartedly disagree. Many have seen these scenes many a time, but here they are again. Even though it was for a brief period of time, he was clearly laid out.

Not sure why you're delving deep into the rules btw..

The point is that he possesses that power all the time but supresses it per his story, but its still viable on the forum.

Yes, I have the issue. He's not knocked out and he's standing on the next page. The second he hits the ground WW is all over Konvict then Supes stands back up.

Originally posted by One-Punch
I remember Lobo giving Superman a beating. Same with Lar Gand, and Metallo (tapping into Earth's magnetic core). Ultraman has knocked him out before, same with Silver Banshee when she push him out of a sky scrapper and slammed him into the streets. Although with Silver Banshee I think it was the fall that knocked him out, lol.

If the Taurus incident counts for Thor, I don't see why Konvikt wouldn't count. The only difference is Thor was 2-shot KO'd and Superman was 1-shot KO'd.

These showings aren't valid. They are low showings.

Originally posted by h1a8
I remember Thor getting koed by falling off the back of mangog and also asgardians dying after falling from 20 feet from the air onto the ground.

These showings aren't valid. They are low showings.

Nothing low about what One punch said. Those people are capable of knocking Heralds out. By the way, your Thor showings were lame and didn't prove anything.

Originally posted by carver9
Nothing low about what One punch said. Those people are capable of knocking Heralds out. By the way, your Thor showings were lame and didn't prove anything.

Originally posted by Juntai
The point is that he possesses that power all the time but supresses it per his story, but its still viable on the forum.

Yes, I have the issue. He's not knocked out and he's standing on the next page. The second he hits the ground WW is all over Konvict then Supes stands back up.

Looks KO'd to me. I guess I would call it a flash ko/stun.. Wasn't an extended period of time, but he got laid out.

With the argument Juntai just made, I would have a field day using that same kind of logic for the Hulk.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman getting hurt by falling to the ground isn't a lowball showing? Really?

You're a hypocrite though. You used that same kind of argument AGAINST Thor AND Ulik. Hell, you said Colossus could beat Ulik because of the building falling thing. Let's stay consistent here H1.

Originally posted by One-Punch
There's no indication of the Eradicator influencing Superman [b]during the fight. Also, why would the Eradicator influencing Superman be a detriment? When he was fully influenced by it, he went from being tossed around by Maxima to stomping her. And even if it was, it still doesn't change the fact that Superman did try fighting Lobo physically and got beaten up pretty badly. [/B]

Superman didn't know he was being influenced yet. And it would be a problem because it effected his fighting. Lobo talked about how Superman fought like a butler. Same writer had Superman doing fine against Lobo later. With Maxima, he was just flat-out superior to her. Unless you think one-shoting her with a backhanded bitchslap doesn't mean he's well above her physically.

Originally posted by One-Punch
The writer doesn't actually confirm it though.

It's the fan writing in that [b]speculates that the Eradicator influenced Superman to make himself hold back. The fan fully admits this is just an assumption though.

e.g., the fan says..."I would tend to believe this assumption, but I think my belief is mainly due to the fact that I can't see Superman getting his head kicked in by a punk with a dolphin fetish!"

The writer's response was... "Lobo's power is to isolate (and penetrate) his opponent's weakness. This aspect of Lobo's power confused a number of our readers as they were puzzled over how Lobo gave Superman such a run for his money"

So according to the writer, it was Lobo's ability to isolate and penetrate his opponent's weakness that allowed him to beat-up Superman. The writer makes no mention of the Eradicator.[/B]

If anything, this just negatively effects your argument if we go with that, because the editor(I think it was editors who replied to letter pages) said "solely on fistcuffs." Meaning there was more involved, and this topic is about hand-to-hand, so using Superman doing poorly in a fight that had Lobo using a power Thor doesn't have makes it invalid.

Originally posted by One-Punch
All we see is Superman bashing their heads together, then the lights turn off. A page later we them all standing and talking to each other. There's no art or statement that shows them as unconscious, so why assume so?

Yeah, because people can't be revived from being KOed and back on their feet shortly after, right? No, that's really reaching there. If we saw them get up on their own you'd have a point. The best you can legitimately argue is they were TKOed, instead of KOed.

Originally posted by One-Punch
Good feat for Superman.

Where he actually DOES beat Lar Gand, whereas Lar didn't win in your example. I know they fought at least a little two other times, although both had Lar mind controlled, and I don't think much happened with Lar(both instances Brainiac had a team attacking Supes).

Originally posted by One-Punch
I was already iffy about this being physical. I don't think she used her voice when she choked him out though, granted it was a surprise attack.

No she didn't. She said "Superman." Clark had yet to tell Lois he was Superman, AND Banshee surprised him before she said Superman. Check your scans again, she didn't have him long before saying it.

Originally posted by One-Punch
I wouldn't count kryptonite or any weakness in a slugfest.

The fight was in Action Comics #710. Metallo didn't have kryponite, but he was tapping into the Earth's magnetic core via touching the ground. Superman couldn't physically budge him and was getting punched all over the place. He had to cut him off from his power source via waiting till Metallo climbed on top of a car, kick the car underneath him, and grab him in mid-air.

Here's pretty much the whole fight.
http://s23.postimg.org/iyzsc7uxn/P00102.jpg
http://s23.postimg.org/kmyxqv8t7/P00103.jpg
http://s23.postimg.org/nbtqgweaj/P00104.jpg
http://s23.postimg.org/gvpd4jv4r/P00108.jpg
http://s23.postimg.org/sbr6oujx7/P00109.jpg
http://s23.postimg.org/riekw8dwb/P00110.jpg
http://s23.postimg.org/l9xuge5p7/P00113.jpg
http://s23.postimg.org/3npzblxln/P00114.jpg
http://s23.postimg.org/5pqgpuvkr/P00115.jpg
http://s23.postimg.org/mu36ese3f/P00116.jpg

What does this have to do with anything since Metallo didn't win?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Wait.. You really don't think he's regularly portrayed as far above high herald do you?

Meaningless? Says who you? The pictures speak for themselves so I would wholeheartedly disagree. Many have seen these scenes many a time, but here they are again. Even though it was for a brief period of time, he was clearly laid out.

Not sure why you're delving deep into the rules btw..

You can be stunned without being KOed.

Originally posted by h1a8
I remember Thor getting koed by falling off the back of mangog and also asgardians dying after falling from 20 feet from the air onto the ground.

These showings aren't valid. They are low showings.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman getting hurt by falling to the ground isn't a lowball showing? Really?

He wasn't hurt by falling to the ground. Silver Banshee's "death power" effected him when she said his name, so it's not relevant to the thread(both examples were her voice, actually). One-Punch didn't know what he was talking about, I'm sure using scans he saw second-hand.

And none of the ones he mentioned, except Ultraman(and Silver Banshee), had KOed Superman. And the loss against Ultraman was actually off-panel. What we saw of the fight was pretty even, then it breaks away, and we later see Ultraman won.

Originally posted by Delta1938
[B]Superman didn't know he was being influenced yet. And it would be a problem because it effected his fighting. Lobo talked about how Superman fought like a butler. Same writer had Superman doing fine against Lobo later. With Maxima, he was just flat-out superior to her. Unless you think one-shoting her with a backhanded bitchslap doesn't mean he's well above her physically.

Lobo telling Superman he fought like a butler, was him making a point about how his street fighting style is superior to Superman's boy scout fighting style.

You make it sound like the Eradicator's influence made Superman a pacifist or something, which isn't true. It made him more ruthless, logical, efficient, and willing to kill--which means he's not holding back. This is evidenced when he fought Draaga and Maxima. If anything, the Eradicator's influence made Superman a more potent and smart fighter. Feel free to post those fights BTW.

So, what other evidence do you have of Eradicator negatively influencing Superman? Because all the evidence in the actual comic (not fan mail) shows otherwise.

If anything, this just negatively effects your argument if we go with that, because the editor(I think it was editors who replied to letter pages) said "solely on fistcuffs." Meaning there was more involved, and this topic is about hand-to-hand, so using Superman doing poorly in a fight that had Lobo using a power Thor doesn't have makes it invalid.

Secondly, the editor's statement about Lobo isolating weaknesses is pretty vague and general. You make it sound like Lobo had some secret power he used. If we examine the fight, it was purely physical on Lobo's part--and clearly Lobo's street fighting style got the better of Superman's boy scout style fighting. It's not like Lobo used kryponite or something, he simply beat the snot out of him. Superman himself stated he couldn't out brawl him.

Yeah, because people can't be revived from being KOed and back on their feet shortly after, right? No, that's really reaching there. If we saw them get up on their own you'd have a point. The best you can legitimately argue is they were TKOed, instead of KOed.

There are tons of scenes where heroes (including Superman) get punched down or out of the panel, only to show up a couple of pages later. We can't assume they were knocked out. By your standards, I can claim DCNU Aquaman one-shot KO'd DCNU Superman because we don't see him come back till later.

Where he actually DOES beat Lar Gand, whereas Lar didn't win in your example. I know they fought at least a little two other times, although both had Lar mind controlled, and I don't think much happened with Lar(both instances Brainiac had a team attacking Supes).

No she didn't. She said "Superman." Clark had yet to tell Lois he was Superman, AND Banshee surprised him before she said Superman. Check your scans again, she didn't have him long before saying it.

What does this have to do with anything since Metallo didn't win?

Originally posted by One-Punch
So you're claiming the Eradicator's influence made Superman a worst fighter. Where's your evidence for this? The only thing you've provided is fan mail speculation, which the editor didn't agree with. This is also against forum rules BTW.

Lobo telling Superman he fought like a butler, was him making a point about how his street fighting style is superior to Superman's boy scout fighting style.

You make it sound like the Eradicator's influence made Superman a pacifist or something, which isn't true. It made him more ruthless, logical, efficient, and willing to kill--which means he's not holding back. This is evidenced when he fought Draaga and Maxima. If anything, the Eradicator's influence made Superman a more potent and smart fighter. Feel free to post those fights BTW.

So, what other evidence do you have of Eradicator negatively influencing Superman? Because all the evidence in the actual comic (not fan mail) shows otherwise.

First let's get one thing straight, you claimed the editor agreed with the fan's speculation that the Eradicator made Superman hold back. This turned out to be false. No where does the editor say the Eradicator influenced Superman negatively.

Secondly, the editor's statement about Lobo isolating weaknesses is pretty vague and general. You make it sound like Lobo had some secret power he used. If we examine the fight, it was purely physical on Lobo's part--and clearly Lobo's street fighting style got the better of Superman's boy scout style fighting. It's not like Lobo used kryponite or something, he simply beat the snot out of him. Superman himself stated he couldn't out brawl him.

The problem is after they had their heads bashed together, the scene immediately changes, and a page later they're up and fine. We don't get to see how the head butting actually affected them. They could've been KO'd, or stunned, or badly hurt, or perfectly fine--we don't know because there's no art or narration to give us any clues.

There are tons of scenes where heroes (including Superman) get punched down or out of the panel, only to show up a couple of pages later. We can't assume they were knocked out. By your standards, I can claim DCNU Aquaman one-shot KO'd DCNU Superman because we don't see him come back till later.

Lar Gand was definitely WINNING though, and according to the narration was about to be killed had Lobo not interrupted the fight.

Show me the scan where Banshee uses her death voice before choking him out. I don't have access to my computer right now.

Metallo was beating Superman physically, and pretty easily at that. Superman couldn't beat him physically, and was forced to cut off his power source. It shows that herald level characters can contend with Superman in physical fights and be winning once in a while.

👆 good post.

Originally posted by Delta1938
You can be stunned without being KOed.