Originally posted by AncientPower
Has everybody suddenly forgotten that the major reason for Vos' victory was unpredictable fighting? Mace will have no such weakness.
unpredictable fighting is an asset not a weakness.
just ask my boy WOLVERINE
Wolverine fought Mr. X who could predict all of Wolverine's moves and counter them.
Originally posted by AncientPower
.....Vos beat Dooku because Dooku had no counter for his unpredictable style. Mace Windu is the unparelleled master of Form VII Vaapad, which is all about random unpredictable tactics in combat.
Windu wins because Vos has no such advantage over him.
you underestimate the POWER of the Dark side
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2when dooku fought mace, wasnt dooku still a jedi, and it only a sparring match? I ask because if it was just a sparring match mace probably wouldnt use vaapad, and even if he did it wouldnt give the same amp against jedi dooku as it would dark side dooku.
Fully amped by the dark side and you must remember Dooku fought mace and didn't lose so really not using correct logic there.
Originally posted by AncientPower
.....Vos beat Dooku because Dooku had no counter for his unpredictable style. Mace Windu is the unparelleled master of Form VII Vaapad, which is all about random unpredictable tactics in combat.
Windu wins because Vos has no such advantage over him.
Nah Vos had 2 advantages over Dooku:
1. Speed
2. Unpredictability
Those 2 advantages combined were lethal, and there's no reason they won't be a serious challenge to Windu either.
And His unpredictability was his very nature. Had nothing to do with his Saber form.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's not that simple.If it was Mace would have stomped Sidious as well. But best Vapaad did was make Mace and Sidious equals.
Not to mention he would have stomped Sora Bulq, Kar Vastor, Darth Maul e.t.c.
Fully Dark Side Vos is simply too good to be stomped by anyone but Yoda and Sidious.
That just shows the amount of skill and power Sidious has at his disposal. If he was able to use Vaapad to 100% and only be a stalemate to Sidious that just shows Vaapad can only bring him to that level which is a level above Vos even fully tapped. Sora bulq was a more accomplished user of Vaapad than Vos and windu even says that his mastery of it wasn't that far from his own, maul, never really got a real chance to engage in a real battle. It at max lasted for 30 seconds sensed it ended in like 2 slides.
Vaapad got Mace to Sidious level did it not?
Originally posted by Raptor22
when dooku fought mace, wasnt dooku still a jedi, and it only a sparring match? I ask because if it was just a sparring match mace probably wouldnt use vaapad, and even if he did it wouldnt give the same amp against jedi dooku as it would dark side dooku.
Well I understand that but I think Vaapad wasn't created at that time or not fully developed and also it wouldn't have helped him then since it really is more of a tool for dark spiders and during that time Dooku was still a Jedi. I believe they fought again during the clone wars and even though the duel was inconclusive, mace wasn't able to overpower Dooku and they have always been though of as equals, and plus Vaapad has specific uses, that draw on the dark emotions from the oppent. Dooku is more calm cool and collected than Sidious so I don't see it working as well against him as it did against Sidious.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
That just shows the amount of skill and power Sidious has at his disposal. If he was able to use Vaapad to 100% and only be a stalemate to Sidious that just shows Vaapad can only bring him to that level which is a level above Vos even fully tapped. Sora bulq was a more accomplished user of Vaapad than Vos and windu even says that his mastery of it wasn't that far from his own, maul, never really got a real chance to engage in a real battle. It at max lasted for 30 seconds sensed it ended in like 2 slides.Vaapad got Mace to Sidious level did it not?
Vapaad uses an opponents darkness to enhance Mace thereby he usees it as a weapon against them.
Sidious has a heck of a lot more darkness for Mace to harness than Vos does, as confirmed in DD.
You've said yourself Vapaad put Mace on Sidious's level. Meaning it didn't just reflect all his dark side energy back at the darksider thereby stomping them. And it certainly isn't some guaranteed way to defeat any Darksider.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Vapaad uses an opponents darkness to enhance Mace thereby he usees it as a weapon against them.Sidious has a heck of a lot more darkness for Mace to harness than Vos does, as confirmed in DD.
You've said yourself Vapaad put Mace on Sidious's level. Meaning it didn't just reflect all his dark side energy back at the darksider thereby stomping them. And it certainly isn't some guaranteed way to defeat any Darksider.
So why isn't this a stomp? If it uses an opponents darkness against them, then why wouldn't a 100% dark side Vos be a walk in the park for windu. His speed woudl be far greater than Vos.
By putting him on Sidious level if he sinks 100% into Vaapad he woudl be above Vos sue to his own natural skill + Vaapad makes him a much more faster opponent. So I don't see why you don't believe this isn't a stomp.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So why isn't this a stomp? If it uses an opponents darkness against them, then why wouldn't a 100% dark side Vos be a walk in the park for windu. His speed woudl be far greater than Vos.By putting him on Sidious level if he sinks 100% into Vaapad he woudl be above Vos sue to his own natural skill + Vaapad makes him a much more faster opponent. So I don't see why you don't believe this isn't a stomp.
Because Vos doesn't have anywhere near the darkness Sidious does. Hence Mace won't be harnessing the same level of darkness (converted into a weapon of light) that he was against Sidious.
That's why he didn't stomp Maul. Would he have beat Maul had the fight continued? Sure. But that's because he's more powerful than Maul. Has nothing to do with VAPAAD STOMPS ALL DARK SIDERS BY REFLECTING ALL THEIR ENERGY BACK AT THEM.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Because Vos doesn't have anywhere near the darkness Sidious does. Hence Mace won't be harnessing the same level of darkness (converted into a weapon of light) that he was against Sidious.That's why he didn't stomp Maul. Would he have beat Maul had the fight continued? Sure. But that's because he's more powerful than Maul. Has nothing to do with VAPAAD STOMPS ALL DARK SIDERS BY REFLECTING ALL THEIR ENERGY BACK AT THEM.
The amount of dark energy reflects only means he wouldn't have been at the same level doesn't translate to not stomping. So while he won't be harnessing the same amount he's channeling all the dark energy that Vos is sending out which is completely submerged into.
Or the fact the fight didn't last long? We see in his fight against Sidious it took mace a second to get into Vaapad. During his battle with maul he never really got the chance. One slide then the next he is on the floor from an explosion. Battle could not have lasted long enough for it to have been effective.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
The amount of dark energy reflects only means he wouldn't have been at the same level doesn't translate to not stomping. So while he won't be harnessing the same amount he's channeling all the dark energy that Vos is sending out which is completely submerged into.Or the fact the fight didn't last long? We see in his fight against Sidious it took mace a second to get into Vaapad. During his battle with maul he never really got the chance. One slide then the next he is on the floor from an explosion. Battle could not have lasted long enough for it to have been effective.
Do you actually have an example of Mace stomping a Dark Sider by Reflecting all their Dark Side energy back on them?
If not then everything you're claiming is speculation.
In the mean time there's Zero factual evidence that Mace is "stomping" Full DS Vos.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Do you actually have an example of Mace stomping a Dark Sider by Reflecting all their Dark Side energy back on them?If not then everything you're claiming is speculation.
In the mean time there's Zero factual evidence that Mace is "stomping" Full DS Vos.
Well a good example would be Sidious. While he didn't stomp him he sure was able to stalemate him. This is the same guy who was able to go toe to toe with Yoda, and live to tell about it. So with that Windus own skill which is equal or slightly below dookus+Vaapad which has been proved effective will stomp Vos due to all the speed and unpredictability Vos would employ will be helping Mace, and Mace would then be able to stomp him.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Well a good example would be Sidious.
No it's not because he didn't stomp him. If Vapaad simply reflected ALL Drak Side energy back at the Dark Sider, then Mace would have stomped him.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
While he didn't stomp him he sure was able to stalemate him.
Excetly. That's the best Vappad did, lead to a stalemate against someone with far more darkness than Vos. So with an opponent with far less darkness for Mace to draw on, what makes you think Mace is suddenly stomping?
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
This is the same guy who was able to go toe to toe with Yoda, and live to tell about it. So with that Windus own skill which is equal or slightly below dookus+Vaapad which has been proved effective will stomp Vos due to all the speed and unpredictability Vos would employ will be helping Mace, and Mace would then be able to stomp him.
Again if that was the case, then all Sidious's speed and strength would help Mace to stomp Sidious.
Mace has fought plenty of dark siders. So either find an example of him stomping one through Vapaad, or accept you're speculating.
Mace is equal to Dooku (at most slightly above him), so Vos will give him hell. That's what the facts suggest.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
No it's not because he didn't stomp him. If Vapaad simply reflected ALL Drak Side energy back at the Dark Sider, then Mace would have stomped him.Excetly. That's the best Vappad did, lead to a stalemate against someone with far more darkness than Vos. So with an opponent with far less darkness for Mace to draw on, what makes you think Mace is suddenly stomping?
Again if that was the case, then all Sidious's speed and strength would help Mace to stomp Sidious.
Mace has fought plenty of dark siders. So either find an example of him stomping one through Vapaad, or accept you're speculating.
Mace is equal to Dooku (at most slightly above him), so Vos will give him hell. That's what the facts suggest.
Not necessarily. That just shows how skilled Sidious is. Vaapad amped up his power based on how much power Sidious sent off. Sidious sent off just enough for Mace to get a stalemate so that goes to show the gap.
Considering Mace is already above Vos add in this amp he should stomp. Look at the Sidious battle. Someone who was greater(Sidious) than mace and they took on all there dark energy, it made up for the skill gap. Now take the equation and put in someone less skilled(Vos) than Mace and take 100% dark side into it, this would only add to Maces superior skill.
Again the skill gap between Sidiosu and Mace is something to be taken into account.
How about you just look at the equations. It isn't that difficult to understand it. Sidious>Windu. Vaapad into the equation. Sidious=Mace. Now let's take out Sidious. Vos<Mace. Add Vaapad. Vos<<<<<Mace. If he's already stronger, and you give him an amp that reflects Vos' own dark energy it's a stomp. He adds to his already sizable advantage. So Vos' advantage turns into a handicap.
I choose not to get into the Mace vs Dooku debate as they are way to closely matched I just stay away. I personally say Dooku, but Dooku doesn't have Vaapd, or Shatterpoint for that matter.