Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Not necessarily. That just shows how skilled Sidious is. Vaapad amped up his power based on how much power Sidious sent off. Sidious sent off just enough for Mace to get a stalemate so that goes to show the gap.
What the heck? So now Sidious chose how much dark side energy he was giving off?
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Considering Mace is already above Vos
No he's not, unless you think he's already well above Dooku.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
add in this amp he should stomp.
Again in that case he would have stomped Sidious as well. Because he would have added his own power on top of reflecting all of Sidious's back onto him according to you.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Look at the Sidious battle. Someone who was greater(Sidious) than mace and they took on all there dark energy, it made up for the skill gap.
First of all what Skill Gap? Who said Sidious is more skilled than Mace? Mace's Saber skills were unmatched according to the ROTS Novel.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Now take the equation
You see as soon as you're giving me equations, you're clearly speculating, and not providing proper evidence.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
and put in someone less skilled(Vos) than Mace and take 100% dark side into it, this would only add to Maces superior skill.
Mace has superior skill, as did Dooku. But Vos makes up for that with Unpredictability. He's apparently the Unpredictability master.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Again the skill gap between Sidiosu and Mace is something to be taken into account.
Again what skill gap? What Saber form has Sidious completely mastered which is superior to Mace's mastery over Vapaad?
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
How about you just look at the equations.
Because again you're making up your own equations. And your equations are not canon This isn't an algebra quiz.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It isn't that difficult to understand it. Sidious>Windu.
I see what you're saying, but no where is it mentioned that the Dark Sider will "Amp" Mace regardless of his level of darkness and power set.
Again Mace doesn't just stand there reflecting all dark side energy back to the dark sider. If he could do that he wouldn't even need a Saber.
Vapaad's superconduting loop aided Mace to equal Sidious, not surpass him. So we have no example of Vapaad making Mace superior to an opponent on his level.
Bring me just one example of where that happens and I'll concede. But don't give me your equations Lol.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Vaapad into the equation.
Oh God!
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Sidious=Mace.
Yep, Vapaad didn't just stomp Sidious by reflecting back all of Sidious dark side power back in him, then adding Mace's power on top.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Now let's take out Sidious. Vos<Mace.
Who said? DS Vos beat Dooku.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Add Vaapad. Vos<<<<<Mace.
Who says Vapaad Amps Mace regardless of his opponents power level ?
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
If he's already stronger, and you give him an amp that reflects Vos' own dark energy it's a stomp.
LOL No proof it works like that at all.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He adds to his already sizable advantage. So Vos' advantage turns into a handicap.
What Vapaad's going to reflect Vos's Unpredictability now? Lol.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I choose not to get into the Mace vs Dooku debate as they are way to closely matched I just stay away. I personally say Dooku, but Dooku doesn't have Vaapd, or Shatterpoint for that matter.
Why on Earth would you say Dooku takes Mace, but Mace stomps the guy who beat Dooku?
You're making no sense, and you seem as confused as most people about the mechanics of Vapaad and how it works on different opponents, simply because no source has ever bothered to explain that in detail, and we only have the one example, in which it lead to a stalemate, Not a Stomp.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
What the heck? So now Sidious chose how much dark side energy he was giving off?No he's not, unless you think he's already well above Dooku.
Again in that case he would have stomped Sidious as well. Because he would have added his own power on top of reflecting all of Sidious's back onto him according to you.
First of all what Skill Gap? Who said Sidious is more skilled than Mace? Mace's Saber skills were unmatched according to the ROTS Novel.
You see as soon as you're giving me equations, you're clearly speculating, and not providing proper evidence.
Mace has superior skill, as did Dooku. But Vos makes up for that with Unpredictability. He's apparently the Unpredictability master.
Again what skill gap? What Saber form has Sidious completely mastered which is superior to Mace's mastery over Vapaad?
Because again you're making up your own equations. And your equations are not canon This isn't an algebra quiz.
I see what you're saying, but no where is it mentioned that the Dark Sider will "Amp" Mace regardless of his level of darkness and power set.
Again Mace doesn't just stand there reflecting all dark side energy back to the dark sider. If he could do that he wouldn't even need a Saber.
Vapaad's superconduting loop aided Mace to equal Sidious, not surpass him. So we have no example of Vapaad making Mace superior to an opponent on his level.
Bring me just one example of where that happens and I'll concede. But don't give me your equations Lol.
Oh God!
Yep, Vapaad didn't just stomp Sidious by reflecting back all of Sidious dark side power back in him, then adding Mace's power on top.
Who said? DS Vos beat Dooku.
Who says Vapaad Amps Mace regardless of his opponents power level ?
LOL No proof it works like that at all.
What Vapaad's going to reflect Vos's Unpredictability now? Lol.
Why on Earth would you say Dooku takes Mace, but Mace stomps the guy who beat Dooku?
You're making no sense, and you seem as confused as most people about the mechanics of Vapaad and how it works on different opponents, simply because no source has ever bothered to explain that in detail, and we only have the one example, in which it lead to a stalemate, Not a Stomp.
So now you say it doesn't matter how much energy a person gives off, windu will get the same amp he did against Sidious every time?
I mean he's naturally above Vos without the dark side. However add in the dark side for Vos, I didn't see Vos as just majorly above him like the margin is huge. That's where Vaapad compensates for Mace.
That would make sense if the gap between Sidious and Windu weren't as big as it is. That just goes to show how big that gap is and that even Vaapad couldn't bring mace to be his superior.
If they were unmatched than why woudl he need Vaapad to be Sidious perfect equal? So with that you believe he is above yoda when he isn't. The novel also states that Sidious went up against a 100% amped Vaapad windu and he still only fought as an equal so that shows his saber skills aren't unmatched.
Or you just deny what's right in front of you. If Mace is already above Vos(naturally), and then Vos gets his full Dark Sode Amp, He's not just a whole new level above Windu/Dooku level he is most likely slightly above, so with that even if he was a whole new level, the gap between Mace and Vos, is much smaller than Sidious and Mace. With that even if Vos were more above Windu he still wouldn't be on Sidious level and that's the level which we have seen is the level in which Vaapad can only help stalemate the opponent. Vos is not on that level.
You do understand that Mace and Dooku are different. Just
because unpredictability worked on Dooku doesn't mean it will work on Mace.
Mastery of a form doesn't mean anything. Obi wan has a greater mastery of Soresu than any other character ever(possibly) but we see Dooku is able to defeat him, and we all know Sidious and yoda could, and so could mace. Mastery of any one form doesn't mean skill level difference. Sidious has taken his mastery to the blade to another level than Mace(naturally). If we go by what you say than Sidious woudl stomp Mace due to his mastery of all other forms being superior to Mace.
My equations are based off of the books and the films.
Ok well if you get what I'm saying than I've succeeded in what I wanted to do. I'm was trying to get my point through.
See above.
Naturally. However by how much was Vos>Dooku?
Why wouldn't it? It worked on Sidious. Is there a set amount of Dark energy someone has to let out for it to work. Like is there a measurement, like 100milotons or whatever dark energy is measured in.
Oh God!
His dark energy will be reflected. With that Maces speed woudl also increase as seen by his battle with Sidious. Again this boils down to how much stronger do you think Vos was than Dooku at that time. Also Mace not Dooku. Respond diffenrly to different Situations.
1. Vos naturally isn't on Dookus level.
2. Dooku while a Sith isn't the same as Sidious or Maul or outer raging Sith. He is more cool and collected so Mace wouldn't receive the same amp, or possibly anywhere close.
It could be you who coils be confused about how Vaapad works? Just saying, not saying it's true but possibly.
1. Vos naturally isn't on Dookus level.
I think that's hard to say as Dooku is getting older and Vos natural personality is laid back surfer dude as seen in hunt for ziro
Vos initially did not want to kill The Sleeper. Dooku doesnt blink an eye. Vos friend was Desh and loved all the Jedi.
Dooku was on a higher level due to DS training.
when Vos has amped by hate he beats Dooku
Originally posted by redpill
1. Vos naturally isn't on Dookus level.I think that's hard to say as Dooku is getting older and Vos natural personality is laid back surfer dude as seen in hunt for ziro
Vos initially did not want to kill The Sleeper. Dooku doesnt blink an eye. Vos friend was Desh and loved all the Jedi.
Dooku was on a higher level due to DS training.
when Vos has amped by hate he beats Dooku
No it's not. Dooku naturally can match mace, yoda, anakin, can stomp Obi wan, match 3 night sisters while poisoned and come out the victor, beat ventress and Vos at one time, beat Anakin on several occasions, be considered in greater shape then men half his age. Guess what only one of those was he fighting an older opponent. Vos has nothing on that.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
No it's not. Dooku naturally can match mace, yoda, anakin, can stomp Obi wan, match 3 night sisters while poisoned and come out the victor, beat ventress and Vos at one time, beat Anakin on several occasions, be considered in greater shape then men half his age. Guess what only one of those was he fighting an older opponent. Vos has nothing on that.
good points
but Vos like Anakin, can be amped by the dark side to exceed dooku obviously.
dooku was consistently defeating anakin through TCW until he enraged him rots
if you think DS Anakin can beat Windu then I think Vos can to.
Vos like anakin has tremendous DS potential
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Wat? Anakin didn't need the Dark Side to defeat Dooku. He was simply far better as a combatant that point. Dooku egging him on only made it worse, but he didn't need Dooku angering him to win.
i don't see it. dooku had just wiped the floor of kenobi
w/o anger i think anakin would have lost yet again
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Wat? Anakin didn't need the Dark Side to defeat Dooku. He was simply far better as a combatant that point. Dooku egging him on only made it worse, but he didn't need Dooku angering him to win.
So if that were the case than why was Dooku kicking him around and basically showing he was his superior or a stalemate?
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So now you say it doesn't matter how much energy a person gives off, windu will get the same amp he did against Sidious every time?
Huh I didn't say that at all.
Just show me where the novel says that Sidious dark side energy did nothing but "amp" Mace, and I'll agree.
But from what I read, Mace was "reflecting" Sidious's rage and power back to it's source like a saber deflects a blaster shot.
However deflecting it back didn't overpower Sidious, so that technique has it's limits, and doesn't simply "add" the dark sider's power to Mace's own power.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1. Vos naturally isn't on Dookus level.
2. Dooku while a Sith isn't the same as Sidious or Maul or outer raging Sith. He is more cool and collected so Mace wouldn't receive the same amp, or possibly anywhere close.
I was thinking it wouldn't have the same effect on Dooku because Dooku would most likely be fighting defensively against a physical beast like Mace, and would only use offensive Force attacks.
But Going by your theory that won't matter. Because Dooku gives off dark side energy regardless, therefore those energies will "Amp" Mace regardless.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It could be you who coils be confused about how Vaapad works? Just saying, not saying it's true but possibly.
Well then if you have solid proof and understanding of how it works you should have no issue giving the evidence especially considering how many dark siders Mace has fought.
Originally posted by redpill
i don't see it. dooku had just wiped the floor of kenobiw/o anger i think anakin would have lost yet again
Kenobi's not as powerful as Anakin.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So if that were the case than why was Dooku kicking him around and basically showing he was his superior or a stalemate?
Dooku still had superior skill and knowledge of the Force, so can still get in the odd Powerful smack on Anakin, but overall Anakin was definitely more Powerful.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Huh I didn't say that at all.Just show me where the novel says that Sidious dark side energy did nothing but "amp" Mace, and I'll agree.
But from what I read, Mace was "reflecting" Sidious's rage and power back to it's source like a saber deflects a blaster shot.
However deflecting it back didn't overpower Sidious, so that technique has it's limits, and doesn't simply "add" the dark sider's power to Mace's own power.
I was thinking it wouldn't have the same effect on Dooku because Dooku would most likely be fighting defensively against a physical beast like Mace, and would only use offensive Force attacks.
But Going by your theory that won't matter. Because Dooku gives off dark side energy regardless, therefore those energies will "Amp" Mace regardless.
Well then if you have solid proof and understanding of how it works you should have no issue giving the evidence especially considering how many dark siders Mace has fought.
I never said that it did anything except amp him. Are you missing the gap,in between Sidious and Windu or are you still on the notion that Windus skills were "unmatched".
of course Vaapad has its limits, everything in this universe does. However this was against Sidious, someone with a sizable,power gap,over Windu, so with that Vos as proven is below Windu(naturally). The real question is how much weaker Dooku and Windu woudl be to Vos once he got his dark side amp.
That makes since. Also Dooku has a more level head than most characters, so it wouldn't work to a point that is beneficial to Mace.
While I could buy into that, by how much woudl he be amped by? I know it wouldn't be by much.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
The real question is how much weaker Dooku and Windu woudl be to Vos once he got his dark side amp.
.
Vos w/ dark side amp is clearly above dooku like anakin.
do you think vos w/ dark side amp is above Mace Windu?
its clear vos can tap into vast dark side energy windu is unable to.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I never said that it did anything except amp him. Are you missing the gap,in between Sidious and Windu
No, but the word "Amp" is never used.
All that's said is that Windu deflects Sidious's Fury back onto him, Via a Lightsaber battle.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
or are you still on the notion that Windus skills were "unmatched".
Do you not see the difference between Power and Saber Skills?
Anoon Bondara's Saber skills were second to none. Did that make him a match for Yoda in a Saber fight? No. Why? Because Yoda was many times stronger and faster.
Fine with the rest.
Originally posted by redpill
Vos w/ dark side amp is clearly above dooku like anakin.do you think vos w/ dark side amp is above Mace Windu?
its clear vos can tap into vast dark side energy windu is unable to.
Yes he is above that level but by how much?
Well if he is above Dooku I personally believe he is above Windu but not by much. When I say above I mean Windu without Vaapad.
Vaapad is my only answer to that.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Yes he is above that level but by how much?Well if he is above Dooku I personally believe he is above Windu but not by much. When I say above I mean Windu without Vaapad.
Vaapad is my only answer to that.
mace never received DS training as vos did.
can mace tap into the ds?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
No, but the word "Amp" is never used.All that's said is that Windu deflects Sidious's Fury back onto him, Via a Lightsaber battle.
Do you not see the difference between Power and Saber Skills?
Anoon Bondara's Saber skills were second to none. Did that make him a match for Yoda in a Saber fight? No. Why? Because Yoda was many times stronger and faster.
Fine with the rest.
Well by Windu being able to stalemate Sidious implies there was an "amp".
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Well by Windu being able to stalemate Sidious implies there was an "amp".
Yes but having an implied "Amp" during one circumstantial fight (Mace's own darkness and motivation was also at an all time high which had nothing to do with Sidious's darkness) does not mean he automatically gets "Amped up" every time he fights a darksider.
And it certainly doesn't mean he automatically stomps someone of DS Vos's level.
Like I said the evidence is what the novel directly states which is that Mace reflected Sidious's fury back to it's source in the same way a lightsaber deflects a blaster bolt. Now that's certainly advantageous in a saber fight against a darksider, especially when the darksider is attacking you with all their fury, but that's not the same as receiving a Power Boost.