Originally posted by Sinious
Just because I don't enjoy this unproductive way of communicating, it doesn't mean I'll stay silent while you insult me.
Spoiler:
So you knowingly engage in "unproductive ways of communication" that you "don't enjoy" because you feel compelled to respond when I insult you? This is what we call an emotional investment and weaves beautifully into my meta-point.
Originally posted by Sinious
We often end up agreeing on things with him so maybe he can convince me where you failed.
Spoiler:
His potential success in convincing you would be a product of rhetoric, not logic. Skillz quite readily grasps the logic of my argument, agrees with it, and has been regurgitating it by using a different combination of words to communicate the overall point. He has learned his lessons well and I am pleased with his development.Ultimately, if he persuades you, it is my argument and my position that emerges victorious. All it means is that you have simply refused to accept the truth from the original source... perhaps because you feel insulted and then we're right back to that emotional investment I talked about.
Anyway, food for thought. Enjoy your conversation, I shall be watching it with great interest.
Originally posted by The_TempestSpoiler:
So you knowingly engage in "unproductive ways of communication" that you "don't enjoy" because you feel compelled to respond when I insult you? This is what we call an emotional investment and weaves beautifully into my meta-point.Spoiler:
His potential success in convincing you would be a product of rhetoric, not logic. Skillz quite readily grasps the logic of my argument, agrees with it, and has been regurgitating it by using a different combination of words to communicate the overall point. He has learned his lessons well and I am pleased with his development.Ultimately, if he persuades you, it is my argument and my position that emerges victorious. All it means is that you have simply refused to accept the truth from the original source... perhaps because you feel insulted and then we're right back to that emotional investment I talked about.
Anyway, food for thought. Enjoy your conversation, I shall be watching it with great interest.
If I don't engage in such interactions, what the hell am I doing on KMC?
Good point on Skillz though. 😄 I'd actually like to have the Revan vs Vitiate discussion with him in a more chatable environment but if you're referring to Galen vs Vitiate, I'm still confident Vitiate can win this.
Originally posted by Sinious
If I don't engage in such interactions, what the hell am I doing on KMC?
Open and fruitful discussion about a subject we all know and love, Star Wars.
Q99 is a good example of someone who, by and large, doesn't succumb to such petty squabbles.
Originally posted by Sinious
Good point on Skillz though. 😄 I'd actually like to have the Revan vs Vitiate discussion with him in a more chatable environment but if you're referring to Galen vs Vitiate, I'm still confident Vitiate can win this.
I'm referring to both. He agrees with my interpretation of Revan/Vitiate, which is impressive considering his openly established agenda in wanting Vitiate to be an omnipotent baddie surpassing Sheev. He also openly admits that a sensible argument can be made for 'Killer winning this fight.
Originally posted by The_TempestWe both know that is very hard to achieve on KMC.
Open and fruitful discussion about a subject we all know and love, Star Wars.Q99 is a good example of someone who, by and large, doesn't succumb to such petty squabbles.
So you're suggesting that I should ignore you cause you're a prick? I adore you way too much to pull that off. 😮
I'm referring to both. He agrees with my interpretation of Revan/Vitiate, which is impressive considering his openly established agenda in wanting Vitiate to be an omnipotent baddie surpassing Sheev. He also openly admits that a sensible argument can be made for 'Killer winning this fight.Yeah you'd be proud of my reactions to his Vitty wanking instincts.
The main reason of disagreement here is because I do not believe the gap of power between SWTOR Vitiate and novel Vitiate is as big as you think.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, that doesn't add up. In your own words, you ridiculed the sentiment and have been quite hostile about it ever since. This is indicative of a deep personal investment in the remark.
Ridicule doesn't necessarily mean hostility. Do you not yourself characterise your chastisement of me as mere banter, coming from a place of deep love?
My response to it was light and non-offensive. When you brought it up I calmly explained my intention. You then decided to stage this ridiculous circus to try and get under my skin. It's not working btw.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I agree that the remark didn't have anything to do with you personally, which makes your outrage all the more perplexing.
Prepare to be perplexed forever.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nonsense. All I'm proving right now is that I'm trying to help you heal. That I care about you enough to invest time and energy into making peace with your demons.Cling to me, my child. Let me be your rock.
You're proving that you're ridiculously invested in needling me. It's very telling. You don't even seem to be aware that you're following the same pattern of behavior over and over again. Fascinating.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your behavior indicates otherwise. This has clearly been at the forefront for some time, exacerbated by Ant's innocuous remark.
Can I request a short break in our session? I just need to go outside for a few minutes and puke.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmmI'll ask her. Would you like to?
Me and your mother aren't on speaking terms anymore.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Perhaps you didn't let him love you, Neph. Perhaps you pushed him away as harshly and persistently as you now attempt to push me.But while I did not bring you into this world, I can be a surrogate father to you. I can mentor you, guide you, shape you. Mold you into becoming the man we all know you can be. I can give you the attention, affection, and approval you so readily need for proper cognitive and emotional development.
I also call dibs on banging your mom.
I'm about the only one who does, tbh.
Also I think I'd rather you be a rock, thanks. At least then I get a paperweight out of it. Cool of you to offer to be my father right after offering to let me touch your dick though. And by cool I mean creepy.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I intend to. But more important right now is your answer.
I said, I dunno. He just got more hostile over time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ridicule doesn't necessarily mean hostility. Do you not yourself characterise your chastisement of me as mere banter, coming from a place of deep love?
My affection for you is as vast and unfathomable as the oceans.
Originally posted by Nephthys
My response to it was light and non-offensive. When you brought it up I calmly explained my intention.
Nah, you reacted with transparent hostility that was only magnified when I reminded you of a time when you publicly made a similar endorsement.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You then decided to stage this ridiculous circus to try and get under my skin. It's not working btw.
I'm practically coiled around your lungs, spine, and heart.
excellent
Originally posted by Nephthys
Prepare to be perplexed forever.
At this point, I've divined a pretty strong theory as to the nature of your disgruntlement.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You're proving that you're ridiculously invested in needling me. It's very telling. You don't even seem to be aware that you're following the same pattern of behavior over and over again. Fascinating.
Neph, I consider you a friend. Of course I have an investment in you. This is absolutely nothing new. You're the one in denial here, all the while continuing to behave defensively, undermining your position.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Can I request a short break in our session? I just need to go outside for a few minutes and puke.
Wretch all you like, it doesn't alter the invulnerable Truth of my words one whit.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Me and your mother aren't on speaking terms anymore.
Did she imply that I'm a better debater than you too? mmm
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm about the only one who does, tbh.
Who does what?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also I think I'd rather you be a rock, thanks. At least then I get a paperweight out of it. Cool of you to offer to be my father right after offering to let me touch your dick though. And by cool I mean creepy.
I simply asked if you wanted to. Curious, though, that you interpreted it to be an offer. Perhaps some repressed Freudian desire rears its head like a serpent? excellent
Originally posted by Nephthys
I said, I dunno. He just got more hostile over time.
You seem to be every bit as hostile towards him.
Spoiler:
My theory is thus: Perhaps you feel that your words and positions aren't given their due respect anymore. You perceive the existence of a systemic campaign against certain characters, chiefly Bane, and have blanched at an undesirable consensus. Perhaps you feel that you are unfairly mocked and teased regarding your opinions and debating tactics. Perhaps you blame me, in part or in totality, for your plight and so it galls you to see any endorsement of my abilities. Perhaps, much like Nai, you can't fathom differing viewpoints and so must seek to belittle and delegitimize not only the opinions, but he who holds them. Perhaps our interactions have instilled in you a deep sense of resentment and anger that now manifests so casually.
What do you think? mmm
Back from hiding in Church:
Originally posted by Sinious
Sidious did it with while in saber lock.
Yeah, because 'Killer was focused on the saberlock with Sidious. Now if you believe Revan! Vitiate even has a lightsaber, much less is capable of wielding one effectively, you'd be sorely mistaken. So essentially Vitiate will have to overpower 'Killer straight up, and without a plethora of distance, he won't have time to focus and channel his power.
Originally posted by Sinious
With some distance
Distance that Vitiate would have to create. And against Revan he only created that distance by....using the length of the throne room to his advantage by focusing and channeling his power.
Originally posted by Sinious
and a more dedicated attack
Assuming he'll have ample time to prepare it.
And you can't forget with all of this, Revan! Vitiate required such channeling in the heart of his own power. Who's to say on neutral ground it'll be even harder for him to unleash his deadliest powers, or that they'll be as strong?
So whilst cleaning and listening to music, I had a sudden epiphany: I'm not being very nice at all to Neph. I say he's my friend and yet I've persistently mocked him, condescended him, and teased him. It ceased being lighthearted banter a long time ago and transformed into something akin to casual cruelty.
Neph, since I did all this in public I'm going to apologize in public, too. I dismissed your feelings on the subject for a long time and the truth is you deserve better. I've helped contribute significantly to whatever rift exists between us and that's not right.
We've been friends for years and I shouldn't treat you like that. So I want to offer my sincere apologies. I'm going to dial it way back.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZIs there no starting distance? Usually its 10-15 meters.
Yeah, because 'Killer was focused on the saberlock with Sidious. Now if you believe Revan! Vitiate even has a lightsaber, much less is capable of wielding one effectively, you'd be sorely mistaken. So essentially Vitiate will have to overpower 'Killer straight up, and without a plethora of distance, he won't have time to focus and channel his power.
So you think Sidious' quick victory over Starkiller was possible cause of a distraction caused by a saber lock? Is there any official source that support this cause since your side of this debate is extremely strict about speculations, I think I should return the favor.
Distance that Vitiate would have to create. And against Revan he only created that distance by....using the length of the throne room to his advantage by focusing and channeling his power.Like I said, there will be distance from the start. It doesn't have to be a huge one, if just has to be enough for Vitiate to one-shot him like he did Revan but this isn't the only way Vitiate can abuse lightning. His two lightning attacks at this point are charged attacks or small bursts. He can keep pouring more and more until SK's tutaminis is overwhelmed if he doesn't have the time to charge. Just because he didn't use his lightning like this in the novel, it doesn't mean he can't.
Assuming he'll have ample time to prepare it.Would he need all that if he hadn't fallen into Revan's TP defense trap?And you can't forget with all of this, Revan! Vitiate required such channeling in the heart of his own power. Who's to say on neutral ground it'll be even harder for him to unleash his deadliest powers, or that they'll be as strong?
Can you also kindly explain to me why the gap of power between SWTOR Vitiate and Novel Vitiate is so big before we continue?
Originally posted by Sinious
Is there no starting distance? Usually its 10-15 meters.
10-15 meters =/= 40 meters.
Originally posted by Sinious
So you think Sidious' quick victory over Starkiller was possible cause of a distraction caused by a saber lock? Is there any official source that support this cause since your side of this debate is extremely strict about speculations, I think I should return the favor.
Not sure if we're on the same page, here. Elaborate on your point.
Originally posted by Sinious
Like I said, there will be distance from the start. It doesn't have to be a huge one, if just has to be enough for Vitiate to one-shot him like he did Revan
The gap of 10-15 meters is immensely shorter than the one between Revan and Vitiate. The gap between Vitiate/Revan was such that the the latter couldn't close the distance in time, and the former had ample time to charge up his attack. 10-15 meters can be closed by one as insanely strong in the force as Starkiller.
Originally posted by Sinious
His two lightning attacks at this point are charged attacks or small bursts. He can keep pouring more and more until SK's tutaminis is overwhelmed if he doesn't have the time to charge. Just because he didn't use his lightning like this in the novel, it doesn't mean he can't.
You're assuming 'Killer's not going to use his lightsabers to defend himself against Vitiate's streamed lightning/bursts. Against FLS sure, but again, Vitiate would need to charge such power, which would be made much more difficult off-nexus and with a third of the distance.
Originally posted by Sinious
Would he need all that if he hadn't fallen into Revan's TP defense trap?
Uhh, yeah, considering he had to focus and channel his power until the last possible instant of Revan running across a 120 throne room to blast him back. In his heart of power.
Originally posted by Sinious
Can you also kindly explain to me why the gap of power between SWTOR Vitiate and Novel Vitiate is so big before we continue?
Change in perception. Vitiate's feats and arguably accolades are far better in SWTOR. Viti performed pretty embarrassingly in Revan.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
So whilst cleaning and listening to music, I had a sudden epiphany: I'm not being very nice at all to Neph. I say he's my friend and yet I've persistently mocked him, condescended him, and teased him. It ceased being lighthearted banter a long time ago and transformed into something akin to casual cruelty.Neph, since I did all this in public I'm going to apologize in public, too. I dismissed your feelings on the subject for a long time and the truth is you deserve better. I've helped contribute significantly to whatever rift exists between us and that's not right.
We've been friends for years and I shouldn't treat you like that. So I want to offer my sincere apologies. I'm going to dial it way back.
Apology accepted.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZRevan charges Vitiate and Vitiate sends him back. What makes you think he sent him flying all the way back to the entrance of the throne room. It could very well be 15 meters distance after that point. I'd like to see your proof on these details. Quite curious if you actually have measured distance in a source actually.
10-15 meters =/= 40 meters.
Not sure if we're on the same page, here. Elaborate on your point.Why did you bring up the saber lock. The way you mentioned it made me assume that you meant that SK was distracted by the saber lock which helped Sidious one-shot him. Was that not your point?
The gap of 10-15 meters is immensely shorter than the one between Revan and Vitiate. The gap between Vitiate/Revan was such that the the latter couldn't close the distance in time, and the former had ample time to charge up his attack. 10-15 meters can be closed by one as insanely strong in the force as Starkiller.Again, how do you know that though? Maybe Vitiate's charging doesn't take as much as time as some people assume.
You're assuming 'Killer's not going to use his lightsabers to defend himself against Vitiate's streamed lightning/bursts. Against FLS sure, but again, Vitiate would need to charge such power, which would be made much more difficult off-nexus and with a third of the distance.Much more difficult off-nexus? Since when does a force-user of this caliber needs a nexus to charge his power without difficulty?
Why does Vitiate have to send just FLS or streamed lightning bursts? What makes you think that he can't just send a regular lightning like Dooku or Sidious does in the movies? Do you think he is incapable of summoning one of the most basic sith force powers ever used just because he didn't do it against Revan?
Uhh, yeah, considering he had to focus and channel his power until the last possible instant of Revan running across a 120 throne room to blast him back. In his heart of power."Had to"? Can you prove to me that he indeed had to do that? I mean if we are simply speculating then I can easily say Vitiate did that cause he was toying with Revan and waited for him to near him before he sent him back.
Change in perception. Vitiate's feats and arguably accolades are far better in SWTOR. Viti performed pretty embarrassingly in Revan.Accolades? What accolades are you referring to? Remember this is pre-SoR SWTOR Vitiate we are using for comparison. And his combat related feats worth mentioning in SWTOR are his FLS show against the strike team and collapsing the Dark Temple while weakened+dying. These feats aren't far above from one-shotting Revan regardless of how poorly Vitiate acted prior to that. The raw power he displays there is insane and there is no denying it.
Vitiate was overconfident and caught enexpecting. His performance is more related to his choices in that situation than his power.
Starkiller vs Vitiate would go so much differently. This is a guy who humiliated a Sith Lord at the age of 10. He then, reached his natural potential in 100 years and with Natemha, became multiple times more powerful. At this point he surpassed any Sith that came before him and spent a millennia constantly feeding on others and participating in rituals that made him more powerful. If he wasn't even capable of defeating someone like SK at the age of 1100, then he is nowhere near DE Sidious level at the age of 1400 since he didn't do anything that would make him that much more powerful in those 300 years.